Going to the zoo...what would you do?

chickenmammalove

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I'm in London now with family and everyone wants to go to the London zoo for our one big family 'day out.' I said I'd rather not go there, suggested an alternative attraction, but also said that I'd ultimately bow out with no more said if that's really what they wanted to do. They don't really understand how it's not vegan because apparently the London zoo is not for profit and does a lot of good things...my feeling is, exploitation is exploitation, but maybe I'm missing something with regards to this particular zoo?

Would love feedback and insight on this. Is the London zoo worth supporting, looking at it from a vegan mindset? Would you go so as not to be "that vegan" to your family? Or would you skip it, knowing your family wouldn't understand why and would probably be annoyed with you for making them feel judged and guilty?
 
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For me, it would be a very easy decision. Having a good excuse not to go on the big family "day out" is a plus.
I would have been looking for any excuse.

I would say to the family that Zoos are like prisons for animals. Innocent Wild animals don't belong in cages. I'm going on the Harry Potter walking tour. Does anyone want to come with.

Having my family feeling annoyed with me is their default position. So that wouldn't make a difference. And amongst my friends and family, I don't mind being "that vegan". I consider stuff like that an opportunity to educate. Also dragging me to a zoo would probably be a bad idea as i would attempt to convert the little kids at every opportunity.

However, I imagine there are people who actually enjoy spending lots of time with their family. In which case it is a judgment call.
 
Oh! If no one is going to do an alternative with you - that would be a great opportunity for you to go visit a vegan restaurant. Check out Happy Cow. According to Happy Cow there are like 500 vegan restaurants in London.
 
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Some zoos play important roles in rehabilitation of wildlife and conservation of endangered or threatened species. These are vital and admirable undertakings, and I cannot in good conscience criticize them. I think the idea that "exploitation is exploitation" is overly simplistic. In ecology a similar attitude can be taken towards wilderness, but because of the over-development of the modern world, threatened populations of certain species, and climate change, these wilderness areas must be lightly managed - to not do so would be criminal neglect of our planet.

I'm not well versed on the London Zoo, so I can't speak to their programs. I did see they have B.U.G.S. which teaches the public about biodiversity, which is a very good thing. However, their singular awesome project with an insect house won't override any real exploitation they might be engaging in with the mammals or birds there.
 
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Some zoos play important roles in rehabilitation of wildlife and conservation of endangered or threatened species. These are vital and admirable undertakings, and I cannot in good conscience criticize them. I think the idea that "exploitation is exploitation" is overly simplistic. In ecology a similar attitude can be taken towards wilderness, but because of the over-development of the modern world, threatened populations of certain species, and climate change, these wilderness areas must be lightly managed - to not do so would be criminal neglect of our planet.

This is a good point, and similar to what my family was saying. When I say, exploitation is exploitation, it is overly simplistic, so let me give an example of what I mean. As a child, I used to help out at a small dairy farm. The cows spent nearly every day outside, coming in only to be milked and if the weather was very cold, rainy, or snowy. They ate exclusively grass and hay (dried grass). They had names and the births of calves were celebrated. They were never branded, hit, or kicked. They lived the natural lifespan of a cow. Calves were kept with their mothers. Cows were never raped (there was always a bull in the herd, so pregnancy was done naturally). This sort of farm is a far cry from the typical factory dairy farm. The former is obviously kinder to the cows. However, I would say it's still exploitation. The farmers are still taking milk that doesn't belong to them. And because they only need one bull, the bull calves are sent to slaughter once they start to mature.

So, my gut feeling with the London zoo is, while it might do a lot of great stuff like conservancy and rehabilitation, be non-profit, and do its best to offer the animals an enriching environment, they are still keeping wild animals in an artificial envirnment for the pleasure of human onlookers. I want to keep an open mind though, and that's why I was wondering if anyone here had a different perspective or could offer info I was missing.

As far as my family goes, I genuinely enjoy spending time with them. I don't wish to exclude myself from their company if I can help it. They make me laugh and I know that, at the end of the day, they are there for me. But sometimes, I find it difficult to be vegan around them. I feel like I often have to apologise for being difficult and am put in the position of choosing between my family and my values. Even the family members who say they support my being vegan make me feel badly - especially when I say no to something like beeswax, wool, or the zoo. They make me feel like I'm the problem. They think they've educated themselves and have come to the conclusion that veganism isn't necessary in order to care about animal or environmental welfare.

I want to show the people in my life that being vegan is actually rather easy and hardly ever feels like a sacrifice. I don't want to give the impression that to be vegan means to make a fuss or cause inconvenience for others. I want them to feel comfortable around and accepted by me. I don't know a single person IRL who's vegan, so sometimes I feel really alone and unsure of how best to navigate non-vegan relationships. I know a couple of people who call themselves vegan, but they buy leather, beeswax, and wool; as well as meat, dairy, and eggs for their non-vegan friends and family (as gifts or treating them to a meal), so to me, they're more plant-based, rather than vegan.
 
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If I were to go to a zoo today, I would feel extremely uncomfortable. After being vegan for a while, one starts to identify with animals in almost the same way that one identifies with other humans. I don’t think it would be kind to yourself to put yourself through such an unpleasant time just to be with your family. They may love you, but they need to also respect your perspective on things. If they want to spend a day with you, they need to pick an activity that appeals to you as much as it appeals to them.

Think about it this way. If one of your family members absolutely hated horror movies, would you all choose to go and see a horror movie together? Or would you choose something more neutral?

It sounds to me like you do know vegan people in real life. Veganism is not always straightforward for everyone. Others may make different decisions on things like going to a zoo, or having a pet, or wearing leather and wool, and still be vegan. (For example, I avoid buying new leather and wool, but I believe it’s better for animals, and therefore more vegan, to buy one pair of new leather shoes and wear them for five years, than to buy five pairs of new vegan shoes, since they will all eventually end up in a landfill. Here is another example: my husband has very wide feet. There simply are no vegan shoes his size. His fet are so hard to fit that it would be a lost cause to find him used shoes. Does it make him non-vegan that he wears leather shoes?)
 
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This is a good point, and similar to what my family was saying. When I say, exploitation is exploitation, it is overly simplistic, so let me give an example of what I mean. As a child, I used to help out at a small dairy farm. The cows spent nearly every day outside, coming in only to be milked and if the weather was very cold, rainy, or snowy. They ate exclusively grass and hay (dried grass). They had names and the births of calves were celebrated. They were never branded, hit, or kicked. They lived the natural lifespan of a cow. Calves were kept with their mothers. Cows were never raped (there was always a bull in the herd, so pregnancy was done naturally). This sort of farm is a far cry from the typical factory dairy farm. The former is obviously kinder to the cows. However, I would say it's still exploitation. The farmers are still taking milk that doesn't belong to them. And because they only need one bull, the bull calves are sent to slaughter once they start to mature.

So, my gut feeling with the London zoo is, while it might do a lot of great stuff like conservancy and rehabilitation, be non-profit, and do its best to offer the animals an enriching environment, they are still keeping wild animals in an artificial envirnment for the pleasure of human onlookers. I want to keep an open mind though, and that's why I was wondering if anyone here had a different perspective or could offer info I was missing.

As far as my family goes, I genuinely enjoy spending time with them. I don't wish to exclude myself from their company if I can help it. They make me laugh and I know that, at the end of the day, they are there for me. But sometimes, I find it difficult to be vegan around them. I feel like I often have to apologise for being difficult and am put in the position of choosing between my family and my values. Even the family members who say they support my being vegan make me feel badly - especially when I say no to something like beeswax, wool, or the zoo. They make me feel like I'm the problem. They think they've educated themselves and have come to the conclusion that veganism isn't necessary in order to care about animal or environmental welfare.

I want to show the people in my life that being vegan is actually rather easy and hardly ever feels like a sacrifice. I don't want to give the impression that to be vegan means to make a fuss or cause inconvenience for others. I want them to feel comfortable around and accepted by me. I don't know a single person IRL who's vegan, so sometimes I feel really alone and unsure of how best to navigate non-vegan relationships. I know a couple of people who call themselves vegan, but they buy leather, beeswax, and wool; as well as meat, dairy, and eggs for their non-vegan friends and family (as gifts or treating them to a meal), so to me, they're more plant-based, rather than vegan.

Well your gut might be right about the London Zoo, specifically (I wouldn't know, again not familiar, so you really should research it before you form a solid opinion on it) but saying things like wildlife rehab and conservation programs are "exploitation" is naive at best, adolescent idealism at worst, because we're in the 6th Mass Extinction and making an argument that saving species isn't compatible with veganism is right up there with people who argue we should let dogs roam free in major cities, or that we should stop feeding domestic cats.

At the end of the day, though, if this is just about your personal feelings as an individual, you have every right to say "NO" to the zoo, even if it's your family. I agree with you about people who buy meat, dairy and eggs for non-vegan friends and family...I'm kind of like, you don't really "get this" do you? It's about not participating in the capitalist system of paying for animals to be enslaved, tortured and killed, not about what you personally eat.

Good for you being vegan and "alone" that's really tough, so at least you have this forum now. Maybe you could find some meet-ups or vegan groups in London.
 
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I have been in this position, in the past, and I did choose to go and used it as an educational opportunity, for myself and, for the animals, I would look them in the eye and send them love and peace and let them know that I would prefer they were free. It hurt my heart and brought me to tears, a few times, and hope that it was helpful, even in a small way, for the animals.

Not sure that I would go again unless it was, as @Forest Nymph suggested, a facility that was a rescue farm or rescue zoo or suchlike.

Emma JC
 
Also, in case you do have time on your own - here is the number one rated restaurant in London (on TripAdvisor) and it is a vegan restaurant - Amrutha Lounge - I saw it on a recent Family Fizz video.

Emma JC
 
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I don't like this idea that conservation programs justify a zoo ethically. They are just to try and ward off criticism. Fundamentally a zoo is a place where people pay money to look at animals in enclosed areas. The fact that they have some conservation programs doesn't justify the immoral part.

I went to a zoo in Toronto in 2001 and after that decided not to go again to any zoo. I made one exception, I think in 2008, because it was a free zoo in a city park and so I figured I wasn't paying to support it. Since then discussions have come up about going to the zoo with family and I always just say that they can go without me. In practice, they never go.

I suggest you explain your reasons for not going. I suggest you are very polite and ask your family to report back on whether the animals are pacing up and down frustrated, look angry or not. Tell them you'd be interested to hear. And arrange to meet up afterwards.

Personally I wouldn't go, but I'd understand it if you did.
 
I have been in this position, in the past, and I did choose to go and used it as an educational opportunity, for myself and, for the animals, I would look them in the eye and send them love and peace and let them know that I would prefer they were free. It hurt my heart and brought me to tears, a few times, and hope that it was helpful, even in a small way, for the animals.

Not sure that I would go again unless it was, as @Forest Nymph suggested, a facility that was a rescue farm or rescue zoo or suchlike.

Emma JC

I love this attitude! It's basically the same (or similar) thing when you walk by an animal farm or a meadow with cows. It always saddens me because I know that these beautiful creatures will never live the life they deserve or have the chance to flourish because we (humans) force them to be livestock. Whenever I see such animals I will go up to the fence and wait for them to come to me, and once they trust me enough I try to give them love and compassion for this moment. Many of my friends (including my boyfriend) don't think this makes a difference, but I can tell that the animals are wise... They can sense your intentions and "aura" if you will, and I think that - even if it's just for a moment - they know that there are people who care about them and that maybe some day, this will all find an end.
 
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I'm too late to the conversation to offer advice, but I'm glad to hear that things worked themselves out. If there's one thing I've finally learned in my life, it's that I don't always have to automatically react. Sometimes waiting things out ends up with the results I was hoping for. Sometimes not, but even then it gives me time to react thoughtfully.
It does sound like your family wants to take your concerns into consideration- especially since they've now planned a vegan day! Have fun!
 
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