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Here is something to ponder

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Lou

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I think it's pretty clear that a lot of today's popularity of veganism is due to the health benefits. Forks Over Knives, Whole Food Plant Based, What the Health?, Eat To Live, and How Not to Die, have definitely contributed a lot to the vegan movement.

But a lot of the newest "vegan products" are not that healthy. Impossible burger, Beyond Burger, the new Incredible Burger, all the new nondairy frozen desserts. One article has called 2018 The Year of Vegan Junk Food.

It seems like these two forces are contradictory. Even mutually exclusive. Or are they two poles on different ends of a banner, allowing for the banner to go even higher?

What are your thoughts?
 
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Bring on the vegan junk food!

It will make it easier for more people to transition. Those who go vegan for health reasons will still be able to. I didn't go vegan for that reason, but I'm eating really healthy now and have very little interest in processed vegan food.

In the big picture growing veganism is more important than people choosing to pollute their bodies while Evil Food Corp profits.
 

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"I hate myself, not the animals" is a quote I like to toss around when feeling a bit cheeky.

being vegan for the animals should always be #1

if you're only vegan for your own health I dont think that's as impressive
 
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Lou

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"I hate myself, not the animals" is a quote I like to toss around when feeling a bit cheeky.

being vegan for the animals should always be #1

if you're only vegan for your own health I dont think that's as impressive

In my heart of hearts, I agree with you. But I tell everyone that I don't care why you are or want to be vegan. Heck, how about the guy who doesn't love animals - he just hates plants?
 
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Emma JC

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if you're only vegan for your own health I dont think that's as impressive
I think it is impressive when anyone is proactively doing anything that reduces suffering for the animals, doing anything that will improve their health, doing anything that helps the environment. Life is a journey and everyone is at a different place along the journey. Being self aware, being animal aware, being environmentally aware is awesome and I will be impressed and will not judge anyone who is trying and learning and journeying forward.

Emma JC
 

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I think it's pretty clear that a lot of today's popularity of veganism is due to the health benefits. Forks Over Knives, Whole Food Plant Based, What the Health?, Eat To Live, and How Not to Die, have definitely contributed a lot to the vegan movement.

But a lot of the newest "vegan products" are not that healthy. Impossible burger, Beyond Burger, the new Incredible Burger, all the new nondairy frozen desserts. One article has called 2018 The Year of Vegan Junk Food.

It seems like these two forces are contradictory. Even mutually exclusive. Or are they two poles on different ends of a banner, allowing for the banner to go even higher?

What are your thoughts?

Too many people will depend on them/use them too much, complain of hunger ( most of the “meatless meat” type products are pretty low in fiber), and develop deficiencies and other problems over time.

They’ll probably go the course for a while, especially if they consider themselves ethical vegans(no slight to anyone, but I don't believe in the term), but start sneaking in the odd bit of cheese or egg. They’ll feel better because they never properly switched their microbiome by eating whole and fiber rich plant foods. This will cause it’s own type of confusion along with some guilt and shame. But still they’ll probably stay the course for a while, even cheating now and again, and complain that being vegan is “hard”.

Enough time suffering and they will resume omnivore status, and may even make a video about it on youtube. They will also have plenty of company in doing so and it will reinforce to some vegans and many omnivores that it’s too difficult, too expensive, and otherwise ruined some aspect of their health.
 
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betiPT

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Even though I primarily eat unprocessed, I agree with @Sax, as it does make transitioning easier for long time meat eaters. Especially for people that eat a very processed diet.

Unfortunately, it is also expensive, so we are seeing new vegans struggling with maintaining veganism as they are finding it expensive and feel overwhelmed. Fact is, vegan diet is the most cost effective, and arming oneself with a few core recipes is the trick.

My meat eating and morbidly obese friends bought a vegan mince meat replacement and made Bolognaise Sauce. They loved it... at least that is a start :)

To summarise my humble opinion: it is better to have the vegan junk available as a gateway to cleaner and better eating practices. Not everyone can transition in one go, hence this will help people that transition slowly.
 

Forest Nymph

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Too many people will depend on them/use them too much, complain of hunger ( most of the “meatless meat” type products are pretty low in fiber), and develop deficiencies and other problems over time.

They’ll probably go the course for a while, especially if they consider themselves ethical vegans(no slight to anyone, but I don't believe in the term), but start sneaking in the odd bit of cheese or egg. They’ll feel better because they never properly switched their microbiome by eating whole and fiber rich plant foods. This will cause it’s own type of confusion along with some guilt and shame. But still they’ll probably stay the course for a while, even cheating now and again, and complain that being vegan is “hard”.

Enough time suffering and they will resume omnivore status, and may even make a video about it on youtube. They will also have plenty of company in doing so and it will reinforce to some vegans and many omnivores that it’s too difficult, too expensive, and otherwise ruined some aspect of their health.
Do you also have this attitude towards beer and wine, or cookies? Lots of lifelong vegans eat vegan products. Alex Pacheco, famous co founder of PETA used to eat vegan hot dogs out of the can in the 1980s. Vegan Zombie, a twenty plus year vegan and quasi-famous YouTube activist and cookbook creator reviews vegan products and vegan restaurants regularly and has for years. Some of his recipes contain Daiya or meatless crumbles.

Your attitude is silly, extremist and overly pessimistic. While a diet of nothing but vegan junk food isn't good, neither is a diet of hamburgers and ice cream as an omni either. Most vegans eat products sometimes. Their health doesn't suffer, they aren't hungry and they don't go back to being omni. In fact vegan products help people enjoy special treats or deal with nostalgic cravings.


I've never once felt hungry after eating a Beyond Burger that's absurd. They contain twenty grams of protein and nutritionally are very similar to beef in fat and calories too, minus the cholesterol.
 
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Nekodaiden

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Do you also have this attitude towards beer and wine, or cookies?

I don’t seek hunger satisfaction or nutrition from the first 2, whereas someone eating a faux meat product would presumably be doing so for at least part of that reason, in addition to taste. Cookies? Yeah sure, if it isn’t much more than a processed flour and sugar with some flavor and a binder. It isn’t going to satisfy hunger if used too much (this is key in my text).


Lots of lifelong vegans eat vegan products. Alex Pacheco, famous co founder of PETA used to eat vegan hot dogs out of the can in the 1980s. Vegan Zombie, a twenty plus year vegan and quasi-famous YouTube activist and cookbook creator reviews vegan products and vegan restaurants regularly and has for years. Some of his recipes contain Daiya or meatless crumbles.

You are arguing against 2 strawmen you set up.

1) I didn’t say anything about “Vegan products” - the products the OP is talking about is JUNK Vegan products. Tofu and lentil burgers are “vegan products”, but not “junk vegan products” as they are typically whole foods or close to with minimal fillers, isolates etc.

2) When referencing junk, I also qualified in my very first sentence that I was refering to those who depended on/eat too much. I didn’t say “eat at all”.

Your examples of famous vegans/youtubers are really irrelevant unless you can A)List the exact ingredients in what they ate and B) know for certain exactly what % of that constituted their diet. "Eating out of the can" doesn't qualify for either of those, sorry.

Your attitude is silly, extremist and overly pessimistic. While a diet of nothing but vegan junk food isn't good, neither is a diet of hamburgers and ice cream as an omni either. Most vegans eat products sometimes. Their health doesn't suffer, they aren't hungry and they don't go back to being omni. In fact vegan products help people enjoy special treats or deal with nostalgic cravings.

Again, I said “some people will depend on them/eat too much”, and yes, if this is the case, they WILL be hungry and their health WILL suffer. You are replying to a strawmen you set up and dismissing the relevant argument modifier.

I've never once felt hungry after eating a Beyond Burger that's absurd. They contain twenty grams of protein and nutritionally are very similar to beef in fat and calories too, minus the cholesterol.

Sure, its absurd, because you are arguing again against the straw men you set up.



When I was newer than I was now, I ate a lot of bread (labeled wholegrain), white noodles/pasta and mixed this with veggies, seeds etc. I found over time that I was extremely hungry and had to switch to a much higher fiber content wholegrain, and also ditch the white noodles. I also found that of the few processed Vegan products (the junk, not the tofu or lentil burgers) I would try, I had to eat a whole bunch of them + plus more veg or bread to even get close to being satisfied.

My attitude isn’t “silly, extremist and overly pessimistic” - it’s true that people can feel hungry on a Vegan diet that includes too many stripped/processed foods – I have, and so have some others I’ve seen right on this MB. As “ex vegans” almost always talk about “cravings” - then it’s also likely they were doing the same thing to whatever extent and wondering why they were hungry in the longer term.

I think all you’ve proven is that you have completely missed my first sentence and concentrated your entire response on the straw men you set up in order to call me names (absurd, silly, extremist, pessimistic) and otherwise “put me in my place”. Congratulations.
 

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I don’t seek hunger satisfaction or nutrition from the first 2, whereas someone eating a faux meat product would presumably be doing so for at least part of that reason, in addition to taste. Cookies? Yeah sure, if it isn’t much more than a processed flour and sugar with some flavor and a binder. It isn’t going to satisfy hunger if used too much (this is key in my text).





You are arguing against 2 strawmen you set up.

1) I didn’t say anything about “Vegan products” - the products the OP is talking about is JUNK Vegan products. Tofu and lentil burgers are “vegan products”, but not “junk vegan products” as they are typically whole foods or close to with minimal fillers, isolates etc.

2) When referencing junk, I also qualified in my very first sentence that I was refering to those who depended on/eat too much. I didn’t say “eat at all”.

Your examples of famous vegans/youtubers are really irrelevant unless you can A)List the exact ingredients in what they ate and B) know for certain exactly what % of that constituted their diet. "Eating out of the can" doesn't qualify for either of those, sorry.




Again, I said “some people will depend on them/eat too much”, and yes, if this is the case, they WILL be hungry and their health WILL suffer. You are replying to a strawmen you set up and dismissing the relevant argument modifier.




Sure, its absurd, because you are arguing again against the straw men you set up.



When I was newer than I was now, I ate a lot of bread (labeled wholegrain), white noodles/pasta and mixed this with veggies, seeds etc. I found over time that I was extremely hungry and had to switch to a much higher fiber content wholegrain, and also ditch the white noodles. I also found that of the few processed Vegan products (the junk, not the tofu or lentil burgers) I would try, I had to eat a whole bunch of them + plus more veg or bread to even get close to being satisfied.

My attitude isn’t “silly, extremist and overly pessimistic” - it’s true that people can feel hungry on a Vegan diet that includes too many stripped/processed foods – I have, and so have some others I’ve seen right on this MB. As “ex vegans” almost always talk about “cravings” - then it’s also likely they were doing the same thing to whatever extent and wondering why they were hungry in the longer term.

I think all you’ve proven is that you have completely missed my first sentence and concentrated your entire response on the straw men you set up in order to call me names (absurd, silly, extremist, pessimistic) and otherwise “put me in my place”. Congratulations.
Honestly the hungry people who have deficiencies that go back from being vegan are about 99 percent of the time orthorexics like you who try overly hard to eat perfectly. They usually end up starving themselves slowly with a lack of calories, fat or protein then blame a vegan diet for not being substantial enough, so they just had to turn to eggs or whatever. Marveling that a diet of sprouts and quinoa didn't suffice. People who have a normal relaxed attitude towards eating a veggie burger sometimes usually are the ones who stay vegan. Vegan "junk food" actually has a lot of protein in some cases and in others is actually fortified. Also painting veganism as some sort of health food state of permanent deprivation works poorly on a lot of people psychologically in American culture.

The fact that you think Alex Pacheco is a vegan YouTuber is just weird. It's like thinking Peter Singer was one of the Beatles.
 
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Nekodaiden

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Honestly the hungry people who have deficiencies that go back from being vegan are about 99 percent of the time orthorexics like you who try overly hard to eat perfectly.


LOL. 1 year, 2months strong. Not a single cheat, no appreciable deficiencies that aren’t broad spectrum across all diet types (Vit d) and no hunger after meals once I learned what I was doing. Oh, and do orthorexics drink beer in any appreciable amounts which I have mentioned in numerous posts that you couldn’t possibly miss? I also occasionally use oil or eat products that have just a little.



You are wrong about your statistics. Most people don’t even make it 3-6 months eating Vegan, and not because they are orthorexic. If people are relying on vegan “junk” as a meat replacement and still eating very low on the fiber side (the majority of Westerners) then it is a simple fact:



They will not develop enough of the right bacteria in their colons to stay satiated. It’s not about one impossible burger, or one clump of pea or soy protein isolate mixed with oil, flavored and made to look and like a chicken nugget – it’s about a reliance on them – too much of them, especially in combination with other low fiber commonly eaten foods – like white rice, white pasta, white bread, white sugar etc.



I mentioned this point of excess/reliance in my very first sentence of the post you responded to, and you keep setting up strawman after strawman in your responses. Why? My original post wasn’t even directed to you. Did I hit a nerve?



They usually end up starving themselves slowly with a lack of calories, fat or protein then blame a vegan diet for not being substantial enough, so they just had to turn to eggs or whatever. Marveling that a diet of sprouts and quinoa didn't suffice.


Sprouts and quinoa(also a seed that can sprout) I would wager to say would be more than enough biologically if eaten to satiation and especially if among the sprouts were some fatty type seeds like sesame/flax etc. Such a diet is mentioned in the book of Daniel as super healthy, so it’s interesting to see you mock it given your interest in Jewish literature.



People who have a normal relaxed attitude towards eating a veggie burger sometimes usually are the ones who stay vegan.


I don’t have anything against veggie burgers. What’s being referred to in this thread is something that isn’t real, it’s complete or near complete junk. Real veggie burgers are made with real whole veggies – not a mishmash of protein extracts, oil and other isolates with a few herbs and flavor enhancers thrown in for taste along with some synthetic vitamins and a few minerals. If you think that’s a veggie burger you might be confused as to what a real veggie is. An irony particular to someone who identifies as vegan.



What the data does show is that these type of Junk products are favored by MEAT EATERS, primarily. They think it’s what most vegans eat long term and depend on. A few months of eating like they did before (low veggies, low fruit, low nuts and seeds, low legumes, low whole grains) and eating stripped grains and just replacing the meat with faux meat is imo a sure fire way for people to get the wrong idea – especially when (not if!) they get hungry. And if it’s low fiber long term – they will most definitely be!





Just out of curiosity - would you be happy or feel any satisfaction whatsoever if I went back to eating animal products including meat? Because I have this weird feeling from your words that you might get a smile of satisfaction if I did happen to screw up.



Private joke for Bash using nerds like me:



-------

#open 1 terminal, only

#do not use sudo

#do not use tmux for terminal emulation



terminaluser$ find / -name “*straw” > mansplain &

#When you get a prompt



find / *.* &









#Ctl-C, Ctl-C, Ctl-C won’t work…..weeeeee!!!!!!!!!



#when you figure out how to escape, don’t forget mansplain. He knows where all the straw is kept

---------











Vegan "junk food" actually has a lot of protein in some cases and in others is actually fortified.


You actually perpetuate the protein myth as a multi year vegan and previous multi year vegetarian? I find it difficult to believe you’ve been a veggie so long. Seriously? Are you not aware that by World Health Organization standards the recommended protein for humans on a daily basis is a mere 0.8 grams per kilogram of (ideal) body weight? Someone eating natural plant foods to satiation which include enough whole grains, legumes, seeds and nuts cannot possibly have a protein deficiency even if they are bodybuilding.



Also painting veganism as some sort of health food state of permanent deprivation works poorly on a lot of people psychologically in American culture.


But pushing a junk food diet that is as low in fiber and resistant starch, which the standard western diet is, is advisable for keeping vegans long term? Yeah...



Someone who doesn’t eat or believe in eating excessive animal free junk food (the theme of this thread and my original post that you responded to) is painting veganism “as some sort of health food state of permanent deprivation” ? ? Just – wow. Bring on the Daiya and Impossible Burgers – I might get protein or fat deficient, or my fond memories of eating dead corpses and animal secretions might be threatened...and that can’t happen – even if it’s faux I must have it...Lol...I’m dying here...

The fact that you think Alex Pacheco is a vegan YouTuber is just weird. It's like thinking Peter Singer was one of the Beatles.


My quote:
Your examples of famous vegans/youtubers are really irrelevant unless you can A)List the exact ingredients in what they ate and B) know for certain exactly what % of that constituted their diet. "Eating out of the can" doesn't qualify for either of those, sorry.


...doesn’t communicate that. I didn’t and don’t know who these people are, and don’t care. Even if I did know and did care, they wouldn’t be in my SuperUserVegan Credentials book, which I’m not interested in having. Oh and your response is yet another straw man. Set em up, knock em down.
 
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Lou

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Er..
I was going to create a new thread for this, but I thought this thread was still getting a lot of action but maybe needed some new direction.

anyway this just in

What happens when plant-based 'meat' is cheaper than the real thing?

This new article from Treehugger is pretty good.
https://www.treehugger.com/green-food/what-happens-when-plant-based-meat-cheaper-real-thing.html

The author brings up a "meat tax", which is something that Forest Nymph has mentioned too. but I would like to point out that no "meat tax" is necessary. Meat and Dairy are heavily subsidized (to be fair, corn wheat and soybeans are also subsidized - but you know since livestock producers buy corn and soybeans, livestock is sort of getting double subsidies). Anyway, I think it would be more palatable to American consumers if we didn't tax meat but just didn't subsidize it as much. (oh, and you limeys, don't touch that dial. Your goverement subsidizes too. )

The same author has another article in TreeHugger

The dumbest argument against fake meat
https://www.treehugger.com/green-food/dumbest-argument-against-fake-meat.html

The author also goes on a little rant about something that he has encountered. And I think I might have too.
The concept that Vegetarians who eat fake meat are hypocrites.

He concludes the article with this,
But the idea that they can't—morally speaking—eat something that has literally no animal products in it, just because it looks, smells or tastes like it might have animal products in it, is surely just dumb.

After all, the main moral argument for veganism and vegetarianism is not that rutabaga tastes that much better than bacon. Or am I missing something?​


Anyway, more thoughts to ponder.
 

Forest Nymph

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LOL. 1 year, 2months strong. Not a single cheat, no appreciable deficiencies that aren’t broad spectrum across all diet types (Vit d) and no hunger after meals once I learned what I was doing. Oh, and do orthorexics drink beer in any appreciable amounts which I have mentioned in numerous posts that you couldn’t possibly miss? I also occasionally use oil or eat products that have just a little.



You are wrong about your statistics. Most people don’t even make it 3-6 months eating Vegan, and not because they are orthorexic. If people are relying on vegan “junk” as a meat replacement and still eating very low on the fiber side (the majority of Westerners) then it is a simple fact:



They will not develop enough of the right bacteria in their colons to stay satiated. It’s not about one impossible burger, or one clump of pea or soy protein isolate mixed with oil, flavored and made to look and like a chicken nugget – it’s about a reliance on them – too much of them, especially in combination with other low fiber commonly eaten foods – like white rice, white pasta, white bread, white sugar etc.



I mentioned this point of excess/reliance in my very first sentence of the post you responded to, and you keep setting up strawman after strawman in your responses. Why? My original post wasn’t even directed to you. Did I hit a nerve?







Sprouts and quinoa(also a seed that can sprout) I would wager to say would be more than enough biologically if eaten to satiation and especially if among the sprouts were some fatty type seeds like sesame/flax etc. Such a diet is mentioned in the book of Daniel as super healthy, so it’s interesting to see you mock it given your interest in Jewish literature.







I don’t have anything against veggie burgers. What’s being referred to in this thread is something that isn’t real, it’s complete or near complete junk. Real veggie burgers are made with real whole veggies – not a mishmash of protein extracts, oil and other isolates with a few herbs and flavor enhancers thrown in for taste along with some synthetic vitamins and a few minerals. If you think that’s a veggie burger you might be confused as to what a real veggie is. An irony particular to someone who identifies as vegan.



What the data does show is that these type of Junk products are favored by MEAT EATERS, primarily. They think it’s what most vegans eat long term and depend on. A few months of eating like they did before (low veggies, low fruit, low nuts and seeds, low legumes, low whole grains) and eating stripped grains and just replacing the meat with faux meat is imo a sure fire way for people to get the wrong idea – especially when (not if!) they get hungry. And if it’s low fiber long term – they will most definitely be!





Just out of curiosity - would you be happy or feel any satisfaction whatsoever if I went back to eating animal products including meat? Because I have this weird feeling from your words that you might get a smile of satisfaction if I did happen to screw up.



Private joke for Bash using nerds like me:



-------

#open 1 terminal, only

#do not use sudo

#do not use tmux for terminal emulation



terminaluser$ find / -name “*straw” > mansplain &

#When you get a prompt



find / *.* &









#Ctl-C, Ctl-C, Ctl-C won’t work…..weeeeee!!!!!!!!!



#when you figure out how to escape, don’t forget mansplain. He knows where all the straw is kept

---------















You actually perpetuate the protein myth as a multi year vegan and previous multi year vegetarian? I find it difficult to believe you’ve been a veggie so long. Seriously? Are you not aware that by World Health Organization standards the recommended protein for humans on a daily basis is a mere 0.8 grams per kilogram of (ideal) body weight? Someone eating natural plant foods to satiation which include enough whole grains, legumes, seeds and nuts cannot possibly have a protein deficiency even if they are bodybuilding.







But pushing a junk food diet that is as low in fiber and resistant starch, which the standard western diet is, is advisable for keeping vegans long term? Yeah...



Someone who doesn’t eat or believe in eating excessive animal free junk food (the theme of this thread and my original post that you responded to) is painting veganism “as some sort of health food state of permanent deprivation” ? ? Just – wow. Bring on the Daiya and Impossible Burgers – I might get protein or fat deficient, or my fond memories of eating dead corpses and animal secretions might be threatened...and that can’t happen – even if it’s faux I must have it...Lol...I’m dying here...





My quote:




...doesn’t communicate that. I didn’t and don’t know who these people are, and don’t care. Even if I did know and did care, they wouldn’t be in my SuperUserVegan Credentials book, which I’m not interested in having. Oh and your response is yet another straw man. Set em up, knock em down.
I really don't have a ton of interest in what you have to say because I gave you examples of people who are strong prominent vegans who sometimes eat and even promote products like Gardein and Beyond Burger. People who are twenty to thirty years vegan take precedence in my mind over a one year vegan who is clearly still figuring it out. I say that because I have seen your posts in the what I ate today threads and while some of your meals seem interesting there's a pattern of self denial I see there that I've noticed in orthorexic vegans on line. The problem with orthorexics is that they stop being vegan after like five years which shocks a lot of people. It's actually quite predictable that three to five years of sprouts and quinoa and smoothies eventually burns people out. That's what I mean by slow starvation.

You on the other hand said people will develop health problems from eating too many vegan products. Last time I checked the only health problem you can develop in less than six months is a lack of calories. Which is why your original post is silly and is overly gloomy and dramatic.

As for protein, yes you do need protein. It's not a myth. You just don't need as much protein as the average American thinks. But protein is very filling, fiber is not the only filling ingredient.

There's nothing wrong with having Gardein fishless filets on whole grain bread with lettuce tomato and tartar sauce made from vegenaise and lemon and pickles. Then have carrot sticks or an apple.

The way a lot of orthorexics paint food consumption is black and white. Like there's junk food vegans and oil free disciples of cardiologists. Neither extreme is the diet of the average vegan.
 
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Nekodaiden

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I really don't have a ton of interest in what you have to say because I gave you examples of people who are strong prominent vegans who sometimes eat and even promote products like Gardein and Beyond Burger. People who are twenty to thirty years vegan take precedence in my mind over a one year vegan who is clearly still figuring it out. I say that because I have seen your posts in the what I ate today threads and while some of your meals seem interesting there's a pattern of self denial I see there that I've noticed in orthorexic vegans on line. The problem with orthorexics is that they stop being vegan after like five years which shocks a lot of people. It's actually quite predictable that three to five years of sprouts and quinoa and smoothies eventually burns people out. That's what I mean by slow starvation.

You on the other hand said people will develop health problems from eating too many vegan products. Last time I checked the only health problem you can develop in less than six months is a lack of calories. Which is why your original post is silly and is overly gloomy and dramatic.

As for protein, yes you do need protein. It's not a myth. You just don't need as much protein as the average American thinks. But protein is very filling, fiber is not the only filling ingredient.

There's nothing wrong with having Gardein fishless filets on whole grain bread with lettuce tomato and tartar sauce made from vegenaise and lemon and pickles. Then have carrot sticks or an apple.

The way a lot of orthorexics paint food consumption is black and white. Like there's junk food vegans and oil free disciples of cardiologists. Neither extreme is the diet of the average vegan.
Lie, after lie and misrepresentation after misrepresentation. I have been diligent in quoting and responding to each of your points, and you have equally be diligent in summarizing them and misrepresenting them. The only reason I'm responding in short is to point out what is so obvious to anyone who takes the time to read. If you need to lie and misrepresent things I say it underlies a very weak position.
 

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Lie, after lie and misrepresentation after misrepresentation. I have been diligent in quoting and responding to each of your points, and you have equally be diligent in summarizing them and misrepresenting them. The only reason I'm responding in short is to point out what is so obvious to anyone who takes the time to read. If you need to lie and misrepresent things I say it underlies a very weak position.
Calling someone a liar because they don't obsessively quote your posts isn't exactly a strong position. If that's all you can come back with obviously the conversation is over.
 

Nekodaiden

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Calling someone a liar because they don't obsessively quote your posts isn't exactly a strong position. If that's all you can come back with obviously the conversation is over.
I called you a liar because you have constantly misrepresented my points in this thread. In case you don't know, that is what a straw man position is. It hears an argument, twists it in some way, then responds to the twist as if it was the actual argument. It is a form of deception favored by people who have a weak position, and you have engaged in it time and time again in this thread.
 

Nekodaiden

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The dumbest argument against fake meat
https://www.treehugger.com/green-food/dumbest-argument-against-fake-meat.html

The author also goes on a little rant about something that he has encountered. And I think I might have too.
The concept that Vegetarians who eat fake meat are hypocrites.

He concludes the article with this,
But the idea that they can't—morally speaking—eat something that has literally no animal products in it, just because it looks, smells or tastes like it might have animal products in it, is surely just dumb.

After all, the main moral argument for veganism and vegetarianism is not that rutabaga tastes that much better than bacon. Or am I missing something?​


Anyway, more thoughts to ponder.


Meat, whatever the animal, doesn’t come naturally in convenient patties or tubes. It just so happens to be the way it’s mass manufactured to make it a convenient way for it to go with bread.

I wouldn’t go so far as to say anyone is a hypocrite if they eat the faux meats, if it satisfies you, and you like it, want to pay for it and you don’t abuse it to the point where you get some deficiency, then by all means, go ahead.

That being said – I do find it strange that people would get excited over something that so resembles what they would otherwise reject. I’m not talking about patties or tubes called “meat” (as both animal flesh and vegetables can be made into all kinds of shapes for convenient sandwiches and wraps) – but if it needs to “bleed”, have that metallic iron taste and smell like dead flesh – why crave it? While not necessarily hypocritical, I do think it underlies a strange obsession if you are either a vegetarian or a vegan.
 
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Veganite

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Come on you guys! Lets keep the name calling out of our discussions (forum). If you disagree, fine, but calling people names is not going to result in an intelligent discussion. We all know what it will result in, don't we? Please debate your points like intelligent human beings and not like children. Is that really so damn hard to do? I will leave it at that for now.
 

rogerjolly

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A sour atmosphere on the forums is bad for veganism, gives a poor impression to newbies, discourages many people from posting and is detrimental to everyone’s sense of well being.

There is a long tradition at Westminster that if a member of the House of Commons calls another member a liar then the miscreant is asked to leave the chamber.

Just occasionally we Brits can be a clever lot. :)

Roger.
 

Nekodaiden

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A sour atmosphere on the forums is bad for veganism, gives a poor impression to newbies, discourages many people from posting and is detrimental to everyone’s sense of well being.

There is a long tradition at Westminster that if a member of the House of Commons calls another member a liar then the miscreant is asked to leave the chamber.

Just occasionally we Brits can be a clever lot. :)

Roger.
That's too bad. Is it not also a tradition at Westminster to use the term "Aunt Sally" when a member is purposely using straw men arguments to misrepresent positions in order to attack them? Sure, it's not so direct as "you are lying" but it is the same thing.

Or perhaps not as clever?

If anyone looks, the name calling started with Forest Nymph in her first post directed to me. She has also used straw men (Aunt Sally in Britain) to misrepresent posts. This is deception and I've called it for what it is. Now presumably she or someone else has gone running to our Moderator to have this grave injustice of being called on her lies for what they are.
 
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