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How to respond to this argument

Discussion in 'General' started by Rory17, Nov 9, 2017.

  1. Rory17

    Rory17 Member

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    I’ve noticed that some meat-eaters, including my mum, will say things along the lines of “if the animals weren’t bred to be eaten, they wouldn’t have been born at all”. I disagree, of course, but I don’t know what to say to this, except that being bred to be eaten probably doesn’t change the fact that these animals feel pain, etc, and that the fact that the animals are bred to be eaten doesn’t justify killing them unnecessarily, just for profit, just because some humans like the taste of meat. Do you have any other ideas on what to say?
    Thanks.
     
  2. Plant Muncher

    Plant Muncher Guest

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    Rory,

    They are bred for profit. There is no altruistic motive that says that these meat producers want to provide people with food that they like to eat. These industries simply see dollar signs or pound signs in your case. Corporate meat production is destroying the planet for the next generation and if you support this industry, you are helping to ruin our planet for the next generation. Do your relatives/friends care about the next generation or not? I'd have to say "not" if they put their selfish tastes over the welfare of their children and grandchildren when they could simply adopt a more planet friendly diet. Meat is unnecessary, it's a choice. They've made their decision and they must live with the consequences of that decision. You shouldn't have to be ridiculed for doing the right thing. That is what we call bass-ackwards.

    Having said that, pick your battles. Not all of them are worth your effort or attention. Read up on all the positive benefits of veganism and boil them down to a few short but poignant come-backs that you can recite from memory. Here are some examples:
    1. “It takes nothing away from a human to be kind to an animal.” -Joaquin Phoenix
    2. “Veganism is not a sacrifice. It is a joy.” -Gary L. Francione
    3. “Only when we have become non-violent towards all life will we have learned to live well ourselves,” -Cesar Chavez
    4. “Animals are not products. Life doesn’t have a price.” -Anonymous
    5. “Every living creature has the right to live ethically.” -Dirk Verbeuren
    6. “All life deserves respect, dignity, and compassion. All life.” -Anonymous
    7. “It’s not hard to make decisions once you know what your values are.” Roy E. Disney
    8. “May all that have life be delivered from suffering.” -Buddha
    9. “It is much easier to show compassion to animals. They are never wicked.” -Haile Selassie
    10. “I personally chose to go vegan because I educated myself on factory farming and cruelty to animals, and I suddenly realized that what was on my plate were living things, with feelings. And I just couldn’t disconnect myself from it any longer.” -Ellen DeGeneres
    11. “The greatness of a nation and it’s moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” -Gandhi
    12. “If you think that being vegan is difficult, imagine being a factory farmed animal.” -Davegan Raza
    13. “Until one has loved an animal, a part of one’s soul remains unawakened.” -Anatole France
    14. “I don’t see why someone should lose their life just so you can have a snack.” -Russell Brand
    15. “To get mud off your hands, use soap and water. To get blood off your hands, go vegan.” -John Sakars
    16. “Life is too short to make others shorter.” -Anonymous
    17. “Animals are here with us, not for us.” -Anonymous
    18. “The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.” -Albert Einstein
    19. “I’m a vegan. I respect the environment and I do my best to spread the importance of such an issue.” -Jared Leto
    20. “The problem is that humans have victimized animals to such a degree that they are not even considered victims. They are not even considered at all. They are nothing; they don’t count; they don’t matter. They are commodities like TV sets and cell phones. We have actually turned animals into inanimate objects – sandwiches and shoes.” Gary Yourofsky
    21. “If a kid ever realized what was involved in factory farming, they would never touch meat again.” -James Cromwell
    22. “Eating meat is the most disgusting thing I can think of. It’s like biting into your grandmother.” -Morrisey
    23. “I hold that the more helpless a creature, the more entitled it is to protection by man from the cruelty of man” -Ghandi
    24. “One to change a few. A few to change many. Many to change the world. Starts with one.” -Anonymous
    25. “As I improved my diet, I started to learn to love my self, probably for the first time ever.” -Frank Ferrante
    26. “There is no fundamental difference between man and animals in their ability to feel pleasure and pain, happiness, and misery.” -Charles Darwin
    27. “It’s never really been that hard for me. I’ve never had any desire to eat meat. In fact, when I was a kid I would have a really difficult time eating meat at all.” -Tobey Maguire
    28. “The only animals I eat are crackers.” -Anonymous
    29. “Animal factories are one more sign of the extent to which our technological capacities have advanced faster than our ethics.” -Peter Singer
    30. “My body will not be a tomb for other creatures.” -Leonardo Da Vinci
    31. “World Peace begins in the kitchen.” -Anonymous
    32. “Could you look an animal in the eyes and say to it, ‘My appetite is more important than your suffering’?” -Moby
    33. “People eat meat and think they will become as strong as an ox, forgetting that the ox eats grass.” -Pino Caruso
    34. “Please don’t refuse with your eyes what the animals endure with their bodies.” -Shaun Monson
    35. “Why are vegans made fun of while the inhumane factory farming process regards animals and the natural world merely as commodities to be exploited for profit?” -Ellen Page
    36. “Compassion is the best side effect of being vegan.” -Anonymous
    37. “No animal needs to die in order for me to live. And that makes me feel good.” -Howard Lynan
    38. “Science that fails to embrace all living beings is far more dangerous than any virus!” -Steve Simmons
    39. “We all love animals. Why do we call some ‘pets’ and others ‘dinner?’” -K.D. Lang
    40. “Everyone has to find what is right for them, and it is different for everyone. Eating for me is how you proclaim your beliefs three times a day. That is why all religions have rules about eating. Three times a day, I remind myself that I value life and do not want to cause pain to or kill other living beings. That is why I eat the way I do.” -Natalie Portman
    41. “When humans act with cruelty we characterize them as “animals”, yet the only animal that displays cruelty is humanity.” -Anthony Douglas Williams
    42. “I can’t think of anything better in the world to be but a vegan.” -Alicia Silverstone
    43. “Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages” -Thomas Edison
    44. “When I see bacon, I see a pig, I see a little friend, and that’s why I can’t eat it. Simple as that.” -Paul McCartney
    45. “The soul is the same in all living creatures, although the body of each is different.” -Hippocrates
    46. “Behind every beautiful fur coat, there is a story. It is a bloody, barbaric story.” -Mary Tyler Moore
    47. “When people ask me why I don’t eat meat or any other animal products, I say, ‘Because they are unhealthy and they are the product of a violent and inhumane industry.'”-Cassey Afleck
    48. “Part of my becoming a vegetarian was that I would look at my burger, then look at my dogs, and I wasn’t able to see a difference.” -Kristen Bell
    49. “Every time sitting at a dining table, we make a choice. Please choose vegetarianism. Do it for the animals. Do it for the environment and for the sake of your own health.” -Alec Baldwin
    50. “I love animals. All animals. I wouldn’t hurt a cat or a dog — or a chicken, or a cow. And I wouldn’t ask someone else to hurt them for me. That’s why I’m a vegetarian.” -Peter Dinklage
    51. “If slaughterhouses had glass walls, we’d all be vegetarian.” -Paul McCartney
    52. “If you don’t like seeing pictures of violence towards animals being posted, you need to help stop the violence, not the pictures.” -Johnny Depp
    53. “Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances for survival of life on Earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet.” -Albert Einstein
    54. “The time will come when men such as I will look upon the murder of animals as they now look upon the murder of men.” -Leonardo Da Vinci
    55. “The animals of the world exist for their own reasons. They were not made for humans any more than blacks were made for whites, or women for men.” -Alice Walker
    56. “The Gods created certain kinds of beings to replenish our bodies; they are the trees and the plants and the seeds.” -Plato
    57. “The love for all living creatures is the most noble attribute of man.” -Charles Darwin
    58. “No other animal on Earth has portrayed such a disregard for life than mankind.” -Anthony Douglas Williams
    59. “People are the only animals that drink the milk of the mother of another species. All other animals stop drinking milk altogether after weaning. It is unnatural for a dog to nurse from a mother giraffe; it is just as unnatural for a human being to drink the milk of a cow.” -Michael Klaper
    60. “If you don’t want to be beaten, imprisoned, mutilated, killed or tortured then you shouldn’t condone such behaviour towards anyone, be they human or not.” -Moby
    61. “An animal’s eyes have the power to speak a great language.” -Martin Buber
    62. “We cannot have peace among men whose hearts find delight in killing any living creature.” -Rachel Carson
    63. “Nobody really needs a mink coat… Except the mink.” -Glenda Jackson
    64. “Nothing hurts a good soul and a kind heart more than to live amongst people who can’t understand it.” -Ali Ibn Abi Taalib
    65. “We choose to eat meat and have therefore built slaughter houses for the animals and hospitals for us.”-Akbarali Jetha
    66. “Cruelty is one fashion statement we can all do without.” -Rue McClanahan
    67. “You put a baby in a crib with an apple and a rabbit. If it eats the rabbit and plays with the apple, I’ll buy you a new car.” -Harvey Diamond
    68. “The question is not, Can they reason? nor, Can they talk? but, Can they suffer?” -Jeremy Bentham
    69. “It’s not a diet. It’s not a phase. It’s a permanent lifestyle.” -Anonymous
    70. “When diet is wrong, medicine is of no use. When diet is correct, medicine is of no need.” -Ayurvedic proverb
    71. “When you feel the suffering of every living thing in your own heart, that is consciousness.” -Bhagavad Gita
    72. “If you can’t stand watching it be produced, you shouldn’t be eating it.” -Anonymous
    73. “I didn’t change, I just woke up.” -Anonymous
    74. “Animals don’t have a voice, but I do. A loud one. A big ******* mouth. My voice is for them. And I’ll never shut up while they suffer.” -Ricky Gervais
    75. “It almost seems to me that man was not born to be a carnivore.” -Einstein. Albert
    76. “Earth was created for all of us, not some of us.” -Anthony Douglas Williams
    77. “Animals are my friends. And I don’t eat my friends.” -George Bernard Shaw
    78. “I am no longer accepting the things I cannot change. I am changing the things I cannot accept.” -Anonymous
    79. “If you think eating meat is just a personal choice, you are forgetting someone.” -Anonymous
    80. “Do the best you can until you know better. Then when you know better, do better.” -Maya Angelou
    81. “Vegan is not about being perfect. It is about doing the least harm and the most good.” -Anonymous
    82. “The idea that some lives matter less is the root of all that is wrong in the world.” -Dr. Paul Farmer
    83. “Veganism is not about how hard it is for you. It’s about every animal’s right not to be used as a slave.” -Randy Sandberg
    84. “To face animal suffering is to face our responsibility in their suffering.” -JoAnne McArthur
    85. “You can’t do anything violent humanely.” -James Wildman
    86. “People may hate you for being different and not living by society’s standards but deep down, they wish they had the courage to do the same.” -Anonymous
    87. “It’s pretty amazing to wake up every morning, knowing that every decision I make is to cause as little harm as possible. It’s a pretty fantastic way to live.” -Colleen Patrick-Goudreau
    88. “Animal protection isn’t a radical idea. It follows the simple principle that if animals feel pain, joy and fear, they should be protected from suffering.” -Anonymous
    89. “Fur coats are worn by beautiful animals and ugly people.” -Anonymous
    90. “We strive for a world where every earthling has the right to live and grow. That’s why we don’t eat animals.” -Ruby Roth
    91. “Animals are not ingredients.” -Barbara Thompson
    92. “The future depends on what we do in the present.” -Gandhi
    93. “Always let your conscience be your guide.” -Jiminy Cricket
    94. “Cruelty might be very human, and it might be cultural, but it’s not acceptable.” -Jodi Foster
    95. “I’ve been vegan since I got out of the hospital… It’s another eye opener. It changed my life in a number of ways.” -Travis Barker
    96. “The future is not something we enter, the future is something we create.” -Anonymous
    97. “We are, quite literally, gambling with the future of our planet- for the sake of hamburgers.” -Pete Singer
    98. “Poor animals, how jealously they guard their bodies, for to us is merely an evening’s meal, but to them is life itself.” -T. Casey Brennan
    99. “I am grateful to realize that my desires do not entitle me to add to another’s suffering.” -Zoe Weil
    100. “If intelligence and capability are not criteria for the possession of rights, why would animals -who have the capacity to feel fear and pain- be excluded from our moral consideration?” -Jack Norris
    101. “Becoming vegan is the most important and direct change we can immediately make to save the planet and its species.” -Chris Hedges
    102. “Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it’s time to pause and reflect.” -Mark Twain
    103. “You either approve of violence or you don’t, and nothing on earth is more violent or extreme than the meat industry.” -Morrisey
    104. “Start with your heart, and only good can follow!” -Anonymous
    105. “The concept that you are not ingesting rotting flesh sort of sums it up for me.” -Bryan Adams
    106. “I’m a really big lover of animals, and, at the risk of sounding like a total hippie, I do feel more connected to the world at large and to animals.” -Mickey Madden
    107. “Vegan food is soul food in its truest form. Soul food means to feed the soul. And to me, your soul is your intent. If your intent is pure, you are pure.” -Erykah Badu
    108. “The best part of being a vegan is the purity and peace of mind one experiences and the strong connection I feel to the animal kingdom.” -Uri Gellar
    109. “Being a vegan just helps me build up my self-esteem. I feel good about it every time I eat a meal.” -Steve-O
    110. “If you can be anything, be kind.” -Anonymous
    111. “I’m a vegan. It makes me feel really good and bright.” -Lea Michelle
    112. “Being vegan just gives you such great karma.” -Alicia Silverstone
     
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  3. Jamie in Chile

    Jamie in Chile Active Member

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    Unfortunately, the statement is accurate. I thought about this a long time before going vegan, before ultimately figuring out that although the statement is accurate, it is not a successful defence of meat eating from a moral perspective.

    And there are three separate lines of argument that explain why from different angles.

    LOGICAL REASONING/PHILOSOPHY
    The key to why the argument seems to work but doesn't is the way it conflates two separate issues - the breeding the the killing/eating - as if they have to be related. But instead they should be looked at separately.
    1. Is it right to breed the animals in the first place? Answer: maybe, probably no given the way it's done and their breeding is manipulated to our needs at the expense of the animals. Also, why do we have the right to control who lives and for what purpose?
    2. Is it right to kill them? Answer: no. The fact that an animal has been bred for a purpose does not justify the moment of putting a knife into its throat or whatever.

    BENEFITS OF VEGANISM
    Now it may be true (although this is debatable and most vegans would usually not accept it) that eating meat is good for farm animals, since it's possibly better for them to have a crappy life than none at all. But, that does not make if OK to kill them. Eating meat is wrong from a moral perspective, even though the farm animals don't benefit from veganism.

    However looking at veganism only from the point of farm animals misses the point that the less farm animals we have, the less land we need to grow food, and therefore the more land we have for humans and wild animals. As people go vegan, the planet can support its existing humans and wild animals with a better quality of life due to more land per person/animal, or allow a greater population of humans and wild animals. Humans and wild animals are the true beneficiaries of veganism (note that even most vegans and animal rights activitists do not accept this, or even realize it, and disingenously promote veganism as an animal saving diet).

    EXAMPLES
    However, using examples comparing with humans can be instructive also.

    Example 1.
    Unfortunately it logically follows from your Mom's statement that I could breed humans for food and use the same argument. Imagine I had a factory where I genetically breed humans from a test tube, and due to a defect in the genetic process their intellectual development is stunted and they cannot ever become more intelligent than a 1-year old child. This means that they cannot be ever be as intelligent as a pig. If you propose shutting down my factory, I can make the same argument as your mother. “If the humans weren’t bred to be eaten, they wouldn’t have been born at all”. And yet most of us would instinctively know that breeding humans for food would be wrong, and would not change our minds if the humans were less intelligent than animals as I show above.

    Example 2. Let's say that there was another species of animal on the planet more intelligent and powerful than humans, and that they bred humans for food and ate them themselves. By using factory farming techniques, such as keeping humans in cages and giving them crappy food, they are able to increase the human population to an unnatural level of 100 billion given the earth's resources so that they can constantly eat humans. Now the same argument applies: “If the humans weren’t bred to be eaten, they wouldn’t have been born at all”. And yet most of us would still be morally repulsed by the idea and not OK with it even though more humans would have the opportunity to live.

    Example 3. It logically follows from your Mom's statement that two adults could deliberately have sex to produce a child in order to eat it later, fatten up their own human child, and eat it, and once again, same defence. “If the child wasn't bred to be eaten, we would never have had the child in the first place.” Surely most of us can see that the fact the child was only born in order for food - and may even have benefitted as a result - does not make it OK to kill the child, and does not make the whole process OK.

    It's only our speciesism - ie our species bias - our total lack of consideration for other animals, that would permit us to use arguments in favour of eating animals that would, if applied to humans, but not just morally wrong but blatantly absurd. If the argument completely fails when applied to humans, how can it be completely OK for other species?

    I will write a second post to explain how to actually reply to the comment when it comes up.
     
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  4. Jamie in Chile

    Jamie in Chile Active Member

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    I hope that was helpful for you to understanding why your Mom's reasoning when used as an implied moral defence of eating animal products is wrong. However, in practice, in a conversation, you cannot answer the point with such a long-winded essay about conflating arguments, aliens and so on. Even if you can remember all of what I've written, you will just turn people off and not engage their own thought process.

    So my advice is to say something simple like:

    "That's true that the animals wouldn't have been born, but it's not a moral justification for eating them. If it were, then it would be possible for parents to have a child for the purpose of eating it."

    Memorise your 1 sentence response in advance so it will come out as punchy and confident, and put it in your own words. Then, when you say it, wait. Say nothing else. Don't add additional arguments or details that I mentioned above, at least not initially. Just deliberately leave a pause while the other person thinks of a response. Let the pause go as long as possible, if necessary leave a long awkward silence. Do not fill it. Wait for the other person to speak. Let them think.

    One thing that may happen is that they move the conversation on elsewhere, in which case you have neutralised the argument and perhaps they won't mention it again in which case the next time veganism comes on you can focus on the benefits of it without referring to this awkward argument. And you never need to go to all the complex detail above I mentioned.

    However, if they still bring it up again, or if they continue arguing, you can can then add some of the other arguments I mentioned above, but keep it more of an informal conversation than a lecture and perhaps look to eventually turn it around to something else more positive such as the health and environmental benefits of veganism.

    Good luck.
     
  5. rogerjolly
    Breezy

    rogerjolly Active Member

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    Hi PM,

    I hope Rory will forgive me for going off entirely on an inappropriate tack on her thread if I promise to afterwards correct course and approach her issue head on. :)

    My favourite quote from the ones you reproduce is number 2 by Gary Francione. I have already used this twice on this forum and will probably be back with it again sometime.

    My second favourite is number 102 by Mark Twain. You will probably know that he is buried in Almeria, NY. I have visited his grave to pay my respects to the great man.

    There is a very short cul de sac leading to the cemetery gates. And at the turning into the cul de sac is a road sign proclaiming “DEAD END”. I am certain that Mr Twain would have appreciated the humour in that.

    Roger.
     
  6. rogerjolly
    Breezy

    rogerjolly Active Member

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    Hi Rory,

    Thank you for starting this thread. It is a topic that I have personally found to be a very difficult nut to crack. I admit having struggled for a lot of years and have so far not yet found a sharp piece of repartee to satisfactorily answer it. I got very little sleep last night because my brain kept trying to compose the words to succinctly explain my thoughts. Here is my best attempt:

    Quote Rory (or rather her mum): “if the animals weren’t bred to be eaten, they wouldn’t have been born at all”.

    There can be no argument with that. It is a statement of the obvious. The question is, “Is it better for an animal to have lived a life, albeit a very short one, rather than to have not lived at all.”

    On one of my recent threads, “Reinforcement of our beliefs” I gave an example of it being morally wrong to breed animals and then to take their lives from them. This is my starting point. This is the rock on which I will build my church!
     
  7. rogerjolly
    Breezy

    rogerjolly Active Member

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    I am in my seventies. I hope to see my nineties. When I was fifty I hoped to make it to seventy-five. When I was ten I wondered if I would live long enough to celebrate the coming of the magical year 2000. Our lives are precious to us. That is one reason the afterlife was invented. We find it difficult to think of there being no future for us.

    I imagine myself as a child dying from some terrible disease. If then asked the question, “Are you happy to have lived?” I would have given an indefatigable “Yes”.

    But…………
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2017
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  8. rogerjolly
    Breezy

    rogerjolly Active Member

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    Here is a situation our minds find very difficult to contemplate. What if I had never existed? What if that sperm had never managed to make it to the egg? What if my parents knew that if they brought a particular child into the world its life would be cut tragically short? Would they want to create that particular life? An indefatigable “No”.

    Every summer I see the new lambs taking milk from their mothers and watch then gathering into gangs and charging about in the fields having a whale of a time.

    In the film “Never Let Me Go” human clones are grown so their organs can be used for transplants.

    In H G Wells’ “The Time Machine” the Morlocks (a species evolved from humans) farm Eloi (another species evolved from humans) and eat their flesh.

    In all of these examples the individuals would have preferred to have had their shortened lives rather than having had none.

    But in each case it was morally wrong to produce them at all. They should never have existed. And if they had not existed there could be no desire to have existed. There would be no “they” to choose between having short lives or none at all.

    So, there are two entirely different scenarios to think about. The primary one in which there never was a being because of moral reasons.

    And a secondary one where, once already immorally created, a being should be entitled to its life.

    I hope this helps and thank you again for making me get my own thoughts into order.

    Roger.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2017
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  9. Vegan Dogs
    Thinking

    Vegan Dogs Member

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    BRILLIANT ! FANTASTIC POST/COMMENT THX.
     
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  10. Plant Muncher

    Plant Muncher Guest

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    Rog,

    I never get the impression that the people who ridicule veganism really want a lengthy debate about the positive aspects of a vegan diet because they know that they cannot respond with any kind of intelligent defense of their own diet. There are just too many good reasons for veganism and damn few good reasons to slaughter and eat animals day after day.

    I believe that these people feel threatened for the most part and you never want to argue with someone that feels threatened. They will most certainly become defensive and combative and have already proven to be as such by ridiculing veganism in the first place.

    I feel that the best approach I have used is to give them something sort, succinct, and to the point to think about. The strategy doesn't require you to get drawn into a long protracted argument with someone, you can easily memorize several quotes, and if you are savvy enough, you can throw in quotes by people that the other person might already respect, if you know them well enough, and I assume that you do if you are breaking bread with them.

    I guess these types of vegan vs. no-vegan arguments are kind of easy to anticipate as well. I'm just learning to use quotes like these and the holidays are coming up so I am sure that my wife's brother will throw a few jabs my way. I plan to be ready. I know who he respects and admires so I will have a few tailored zingers ready for him specifically.

    Am I just devious or what? :)

    The PM
     
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  11. rogerjolly
    Breezy

    rogerjolly Active Member

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    I would say very astute, downright sneaky and utterly underhand. Carry on with your sterling efforts! :)

    Roger.
     
  12. rogerjolly
    Breezy

    rogerjolly Active Member

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    ……. Some further thoughts:

    Quick quips (for example about bee’s vomit when the honey question arises) and handy quotes are extremely useful at social gatherings. I agree that there are so many people out there who are not at all seriously interested in debate about the ethics of veganism but merely feel threatened and have to defend their positions. They seem to think that if they can find a tiny chink in the edifice of veganism then they have only to insert a chisel and the entire structure will come tumbling down.

    Despite my best efforts I have been unable to find either quip or quote relevant to the question that Rory raised. (Is there any help out there?) I again agree that it is hopeless to produce a dissertation but, at the same time, we certainly have to be ready with concise concrete arguments. This is particularly true with a situation like that between Rory and her mum where they can have a heart to heart on a one to one basis.

    Roger.
     
  13. Plant Muncher

    Plant Muncher Guest

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    I agree that we should be ready with some concise concrete arguments (I'd say points since I have found arguing pointless), but the best argument/point in the world is useless if the other person refuses to listen. I'm of the opinion that you have to get their attention first, then lay out your points one-by-one after gaining an active listener. But then again, that is just my style and it may not suit others.

    The latest example of someone in my life taking pot-shots at veganism is my physical therapist. Nice guy, but the longer I lay there and the more we talk, the more he brings the conversation back to my veganism. I only told him originally that I was a vegan because I thought that it might affect my recovery but he can't seem to forget about it even after he assured me that veganism will not make any difference to my rehab.

    He talks about food a lot for some reason. I must be a strange case for him to have to think about. He'll eventually succumb to my devious vegan ways. Mua-ha-ha-ha-ha!
     
  14. Plant Muncher

    Plant Muncher Guest

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    I would say lay off the sauce. :) Just kidding Rog. I wouldn't take away the sauce right before the holidays.
     
  15. Plant Muncher

    Plant Muncher Guest

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    “if the animals weren’t bred to be eaten, they wouldn’t have been born at all”

    I think this one is more than applicable.

    “Animals are not products. Life doesn’t have a price.” -Anonymous

    or this one...

    “I personally chose to go vegan because I educated myself on factory farming and cruelty to animals, and I suddenly realized that what was on my plate were living things, with feelings. And I just couldn’t disconnect myself from it any longer.” -Ellen DeGeneres

    Even this one...

    “The problem is that humans have victimized animals to such a degree that they are not even considered victims. They are not even considered at all. They are nothing; they don’t count; they don’t matter. They are commodities like TV sets and cell phones. We have actually turned animals into inanimate objects – sandwiches and shoes.” Gary Yourofsky
     
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  16. rogerjolly
    Breezy

    rogerjolly Active Member

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    Hi PM,

    I came across this quote today that I thought you might appreciate:

    “Don’t argue with idiots. They bring you down to their level and then defeat you with experience.” Brian Clough.

    Roger.
     
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  17. poivron

    poivron Member

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    Jamie's reasoning earlier in the thread is beautiful. As Plant Muncher pointed out, however, I don't think people who say this sort of thing are actually interested in a logical response. Your veganism is a constant reminder to them that their actions are not in line with their principles. At the same time, they don't feel they have the strength to be able to stop eating animals. This makes them uncomfortable, so they attack you and try to provoke you instead of contemplating their own inconsistencies.

    If I were asked such a question, I would think something along the lines of, "If I were bred to live under the horrible conditions we force on those defenseless animals, I would rather not have been born at all. We don't even give those poor animals the ability to commit suicide." But giving an answer like that would only lead to a lengthy and pointless argument. Knowing what I know now about how these types of interactions go, I would probably say something like, "I understand why you eat animals, since there was a time when I, too, ate animals. But, having learned how inhumanely factory farmed animals are treated, I can no longer allow myself to eat them. Just as I avoid interfering with your decision to eat animals, I wish you would respect my choice not to eat them." Even that is a little too wordy. The more brief and less combative your answer is, the more effective it will be in getting the person to lay off you.
     
  18. Sally
    Joyful

    Sally Active Member

    Joined:
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    This was on my local Vegan Society website.

    SEEN ON INSTAGRAM


    “My dog had babies.
    I took the crying things away from her as soon as they were born.
    I didn’t even let them get the colostrum.
    My dog was so upset when I took them away.
    She tried to stop me, but I pushed her away.
    I mean, I want to be the one that gets her milk, not the stupid babies.
    I’m the one that needs it.
    What did I do with the babies?
    I killed and ate them.
    What do you mean I am an evil person???
    That’s what you pay someone to do every day too!
    Oh, I’m sorry, did I say my dog?
    I meant my cow.”
     
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  19. Forest Nymph
    Mummified

    Forest Nymph Active Member

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    Great post.
     

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