Question Not sure why to go vegan but curious.

[Banana]

Hi, this post will probably get some hate but lately, I have been curious about veganism. It seems so beautifully portrayed on Youtube but I can't help but feel like the reasons to go vegan just don't seem enough to go vegan. I can't help but get thoughts challenging those reasons and I feel kind of bad about it especially since the philosophy and morals of veganism seem so great.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think veganism is a bad thing and people can choose whatever they'd like to eat. The following are points are my thoughts as to why some of the main reasons why I hear people going vegan doesn't seem enough. I really like to hear the opinions from people who are vegan.

• "We weren't built to eat meat". I can understand the viewpoint on this but there are some characteristics we do have as humans to suggest we can eat meat. Our teeth contain canine teeth that function to rip through meat, but we also have the incisor teeth to cut through vegetables and such. We also have enzymes that allow us to digest the proteins in meat. So I personally don't see how we weren't built to eat meat, BUT I do believe we were not designed to eat a lot of meat. We should be eating a much larger portion of vegetables and grains in proportion to meat. I think the daily recommended amount of meat should be the size of our palms. I think it's
  
  also important to consider that insects are considered to be meat and perhaps these are the sort of meat we were built for rather than larger animals? I've also heard how some argue that we can't hunt with our bare hands, but I think the simple answer is evolution. Our physiology has changed so much throughout time that we no longer need those characteristics to hunt barehanded. The evolution of our brain has lead to inventions such as weapons. Also, aren't monkeys or apes, who have hands, also omnivorous? I've heard a scary thing that some monkey species have eaten other monkey species. Another ting to add is, if going vegan is a more "natural" diet then why is it necessary to take things like vitamin B12 supplements? I just don't really understand how this physiology perspective applies.
• "It's a carcinogen". I think this also links to the daily recommended intake of meat, if it's eaten in the right portion then it shouldn't be a problem. Too much of anything will be bad for you and a lot of people eat more than this. For people who go vegan for this reason, how do you live? Because the Sun is a huge carcinogen, exposure to UV rays can mutate your cells. The fumes of fuels are potential carcinogens and the pollution in the air is too. Your normal metabolic functions may one day cause you cancer because your cells divide and replicate all the time and mutations do occur. That's why there are some people who spend their whole life smoking and never get cancer whereas someone who's been living of what is considered a "healthy" lifestyle may get cancer. Our genetics plays a big role. A majority of cell mutations are cancerous. Everything around us is a potential carcinogen. I personally don't think that meat being a carcinogen is a big issue if eaten in the right portion.
• "My health has improved". Don't get me wrong, bravo for the improvement of your health. It's great. But I don't think it's reliable to generalise one person's personal experience for an entire population. For all we know, it could be a 'placebo'. But mainly it could be the change of many other lifestyle factors. We humans are so complex and so many little things can change our lives. For example, say someone had a health problem and changing to a vegan lifestyle has improved it for them. By boycotting meat from their diet, in turn, their amount of vegetable and grain intake has increased. It could be that the increase in vegetables and grains in their diet is the reason for improvement of health and not the removal of meat. Also reliability of doctors. Honestly, there are not so great doctors out there and misdiagnosis does happen. So for all you know, you may never have had that specific health condition in the first place. A lot of research on health is also trying to cater to the population, so there will be a small percentage of people where the information about health and ways to go about health conditions won't work. My point is, such things like personal experiences are not a definitive reason because there are so many other things in our lives that we may not be accounting for and everyone is so different.
• "Animals are being slaughtered". I used to think this was the only valid reason to go vegan but the more I thought about it, the more I again realised it wasn't enough. Don't misunderstand, the way animals are being treated in horticulture is disgusting. But, is going vegan effective to stop it? I guess you could argue that if the whole population went vegan then yes it would but that sort of goal is incredibly unrealistic I think. I don't think by not eating animals or animal products is actually a way to stop such things. Imagine someone who watches someone else being bullied by others, that bystander is still at fault right? In some way, that's the same for veganism to me. It's almost as though that by not eating meat, that's enough to not feel guilty about animal cruelty and slaughter, that they're doing a good thing and helping the animals. But the animals are still being slaughtered regardless of whether or not you are vegan.

Sorry for the really long post, but I genuinely want to hear the opinions (real opinions, none of the 'oh you're stupid and uneducated' comments) of people who are vegan. Am I wrong to think this?

 

[Andy_T]

"We weren't built to eat meat". I can understand the viewpoint on this but there are some characteristics we do have as humans to suggest we can eat meat.

Hello Banana,

just trying to address a few of your points here, maybe to give you some information and insight.

You are absolutely right!!! Humans CAN and do survive and thrive on meat and dairy. But do we have to?

Humans also can - and for a long time also did - murder, rape, enslave and oppress their fellow humans.
For the longest time of recorded history, this was a perfectly legal and acceptable condition.

However, humanity has evolved and decided that we do not WANT to do all these things (we first and foremost agreed to abstain from these activities not only for altruistical motives, but also rather egoistically because we do not want those things to happen to ourselves).

The same thing also applies to breeding, killing and eating animals and their products.
We are not there yet where we universally understand and agree that this is not ok and act upon it.

But bear in mind that the first people suggesting that slavery should be abolished and all people should have universal rights were also seen as naive dreamers who did not understand the realities of life.

Don't misunderstand, the way animals are being treated in horticulture is disgusting. But, is going vegan effective to stop it? I guess you could argue that if the whole population went vegan then yes it would but that sort of goal is incredibly unrealistic I think.

By the same logic, you can also say "a lot of men do rape women, if I personally do not rape any women, then somebody else will surely do it. So why should I stop?" (repeat the example with steal, kill, pollute, enslave, etc...)

I do understand your point that if in a certain society, you are the only person who is not regularily raping others, then you might be tempted to think the only result will be your own good feeling "Well, I am not participating, I am somehow better than all the others".

However, in order to at some point stop the behaviour, a number of members of the community need to understand that the behaviour is not acceptable and decide to stop it for themselves. In the short run, those still indulging will most likely have advantages (personal fun, no negative reaction by the group members still indulging in the behaviour).

Look at all the social achievements from the past, from universal voting rights to the abolishment of slavery, all of those followed a similar path. Some "enlightened" members of the community realized the behaviour is not ok, and try to convince the majority to see it their way. Often, more than a few members have the feeling that what they are doing is not "right", but however, continuing to do so has advantages for them.

 

[Tom L.]

Hi, Banana.

My main reason for dropping first meat, then fish, and finally dairy and egg was my desire to avoid harm to animals. However, I can see health benefits for me, as well.

First, the animal welfare issue: It is true that the animal-use industries operate on a large scale (even the "family farms' as a group), and you might wonder if your personal boycott of them will have any impact. Well, one of my favorite quotes is from Stanislaw Lec, who wrote: "Every snowflake in an avalanche pleads, 'not guilty'. " All those snowflakes add up. A boycott of an industry does ultimately have an effect on it.

About health: I agree that humans can eat meat and other foods of animal origin without ill effects, at least in small or moderate quantities... but "The China Study", by T. Colin Campbell and others in Cornell University (I think) evidently found that the consumption of very modest amounts (by Western standards) of animal foods had measurable negative health effects. Cardiovascular disease is rampant on my Mom's side of the family, and if I weren't avoiding meat for the animals' sake, I'd surely have to at least limit it for my own.

 

[Poppy]

So if you're so curious, why don't you try it for a while and see how it suits you? You really won't know until you try it. Give yourself a challenging amount of time (1 month? 3 months?) and see how you feel - physically and mentally. Of course, if you need help or ideas, we'll be here to help.

 

[Second Summer]

banana: Firstly, thank you for getting in touch and asking your questions. It's encouraging that more people are starting to think about these issues. Public opinion is changing.

"Animals are being slaughtered". I used to think this was the only valid reason to go vegan but the more I thought about it, the more I again realised it wasn't enough. Don't misunderstand, the way animals are being treated in horticulture is disgusting. But, is going vegan effective to stop it? I guess you could argue that if the whole population went vegan then yes it would but that sort of goal is incredibly unrealistic I think. I don't think by not eating animals or animal products is actually a way to stop such things. Imagine someone who watches someone else being bullied by others, that bystander is still at fault right? In some way, that's the same for veganism to me. It's almost as though that by not eating meat, that's enough to not feel guilty about animal cruelty and slaughter, that they're doing a good thing and helping the animals. But the animals are still being slaughtered regardless of whether or not you are vegan

That an individual's veganism isn't enough to stop others from continuing their exploitation of animals isn't an argument against veganism. That individual's veganism is a necessary part of the solution. Can we do even more? Yes, we can. But until each and every one of us stop using animal products, the exploitation continues. Until the number of vegans reach a more substantial ratio of the population, the ethical aspect of animal products will continue to be largely ignored. (We're getting there!) Until vegan diets are seen as nutritionally adequate for people of all walks of life, people will continue to make uninformed, myth-based excuses for why they can't be vegans.

As for your bullying analogy: Bullying is considered socially unacceptable, and doesn't happen at all on the same scale as animal exploitation.

Animal exploitation can't be stopped by one individual. It requires a whole movement, and veganism is a crucial part of that movement.

 

[Andy_T]

Imagine someone who watches someone else being bullied by others, that bystander is still at fault right? In some way, that's the same for veganism to me.

It's almost as though that by not eating meat, that's enough to not feel guilty about animal cruelty and slaughter, that they're doing a good thing and helping the animals.

Hmm, that comparison does not really fly.

Yes, standing by while somebody else is bullied is not ok.
However, actively joining and helping the bully to bully the victim is not really the better option, right?
And that is what people who are consuming animal products are doing.....

 

[Calliegirl]

As for the B12 issue...it's normally found in soil, but we've killed most of it off with pesticides. Not only do veg*ns need to supplement it, the animals omnis eat have to be supplemented with B12 as well. So, people eating meat are just getting their B12 supplements second hand.

 

[KLS52]

I can't tell you how many omnis I know that are low on B12 and need shots. My levels, however, have remained adequate and it's been 12 years.

 

[Jamie in Chile]

"We weren't built to eat meat" We seem to be built to choose to eat meat or not as we decide.
"It's a carcinogen" I don't think meat is a a carcinogen.
"My health has improved". Some people's health will improve, but not all. It's likely that well-planned vegan diets reduce heart disease and cancer risk with minimal downside. That's statistics. Individuals will have different reactions.

However whatever the answer to the above three points, I don't think it matters. You have selectively taken some of the weaker arguments used by some vegans, but not addressed what to me are some of the more important ones.

Here's the argument for veganism/vegetarianism in 2 sentences: "Eating meat means that animals will suffer and die. It is not necessary to eat meat, and we shouldn’t want to cause unnecessary suffering and death, so we shouldn’t eat meat."

Here's my argument for veganism in a few paragraphs (this is my own site): My Veg Argument

The main arguments for veganism as I see it are ethical and environmental arguments NOT health arguments. If you want to argue seriously against veganism you have to address the ethical and environmental arguments above. People who argue against veganism love to argue on health grounds but that's not where the argument should be.

 

[Jamie in Chile]

"Animals are being slaughtered". I used to think this was the only valid reason to go vegan but the more I thought about it, the more I again realised it wasn't enough. Don't misunderstand, the way animals are being treated in horticulture is disgusting. But, is going vegan effective to stop it? I guess you could argue that if the whole population went vegan then yes it would but that sort of goal is incredibly unrealistic I think. I don't think by not eating animals or animal products is actually a way to stop such things. Imagine someone who watches someone else being bullied by others, that bystander is still at fault right? In some way, that's the same for veganism to me. It's almost as though that by not eating meat, that's enough to not feel guilty about animal cruelty and slaughter, that they're doing a good thing and helping the animals. But the animals are still being slaughtered regardless of whether or not you are vegan.
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Having some temporary technical issue with quoting so I copy and paste your comment above.

Imagine if 50% of the population stopped eating meat. Then 50% of the slaughtering would stop. Imagine if 99% of the population went vegetarian. Obviously, the slaughtering would have to be lower - right? In fact, it would probably be about 99% lower. It logically follows that if 1% of people go vegan, slaughtering would be lower by 1%. And again it logically follows that for every 1 person that goes vegan, slaughtering will reduce by, on average, the amount of animals that you eat. Maybe not exactly given supply and demand theory, but close enough.

You as an individual when you are putting meat in the shopping trolley are providing a clear incentive for more meat to be produced. It's not a yes/no thing. It's about reducing the amount of suffering. A fully vegan world will either never happen or it will take hundreds of years. Don't worry about what others are doing. Just make your own moral decisions first.

I mean, think about it. You wouldn't say: "Others people steal things, and will never eliminate stealing 100%, so I may as well steal." OR "Other people kill [humans] and we will never get the murder rate to zero, so I may as well kill someone." Such arguments would seem wrong because we accept that stealing and killing [humans] is morally wrong.

 

[Danielle]

All you can do is not support the industry yourself. The number of vegans is growing. Imagine if everyone with that mindset went vegan. The mindset that one person can't make a difference, so why try?

 

[FortyTwo]

Hi Banana!

You'll get a lot of different responses on whether or not veganism is actually effective. I personally don't believe it has that much impact on a truly monstrous, titanic industry, whose mindset is built into practically everything we as a global capitalist society do, but I still choose to be vegan. My main reason is that I, personally, am disgusted by the idea of eating meat and exploiting animals for personal gain. Additionally, although I doubt us vegans will cause a big enough shift in society to get rid of animal slaughter forever, the more of us there are the better chance we have of doing so.

Being vegetarian or vegan is a great first step toward feeling better and improving the Earth - hope you join us!