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Discussion in 'General' started by gib, Aug 1, 2018.
Should vegans own pets? Your thoughts please
As long as animals are being bred as pets they deserve to be cared for. It's unfortunate that the most popular pets are natural meat eaters and many other animals will die in order to feed them. But pets didn't ask to be born and shouldn't be sentenced to death for their nutritional needs, or set loose to fend for themselves. The problem of feeding pets should be solved by not breeding pets.
If I were an animal awaiting adoption I would hope for a vegan to take me home.
I loathe this ridiculous argument, just because as someone with an actual background in science related to animals and agriculture, we can't just let all the babies be free. It's a childish thought. If we merely freed caged domestic animals and put our companion animals out in the forest, it would be animal cruelty. If you study wildlife biology for even five seconds, you know that even wild animals who have been domesticated at too young of an age through being abandoned by the mother (or mother's death) that they can't even live in the wild - so why the hell would dogs, cats and pigs?
Gary L. Francione has used the phrase “refugees of animal exploitation” to refer to domesticated animals and that is how I think of my cats, house guests who are refugees of animal exploitation, but they are captive house guests because I don’t let them outside. So it is not like it is a voluntary arrangement for them. Legally they are my property, but mentally they aren’t. Animals being thought of as property is not vegan. It is absolutely, 100% not vegan to buy a pet from a pet store or breeder but it is totally compatible with veganism to take one in from a shelter, or to take in a homeless stray domesticated animal.
The sad thing is that I have to feed my cats meat cat food which contributes to animal agriculture profits, but I see no other way before cultured meat cat food becomes available. Some vegans take the stance that they will only have a pet that can be vegan, such as dog, rabbit or guinea pig but something seems wrong with this to me. It is probably just because I like cats a lot.
But I can relate to vegans with that type of attitude somewhat because I would not want to care for an animal that needs other animals bred for it, such as one that needs to eat live animals. Sometimes, a boa constrictor or python who was born in captivity may end up at a shelter. They cannot be vegan and need to eat live mice or rats. What should be done with this animal (assuming it is illegal and not possible bring it back to Central/South America/Africa as the case may be to release it into the wild in its native habitat)? Should it be killed or should a non-vegan take it in? If a non-vegan should take it in, what if we got our wish and everyone went vegan and there were no non-vegans left? Would one of us step up and take this snake into our home and feed it mice, or would we euthanize it? That is an ethical dilemma.
With my cats, the difference is that the meat they eat is a by-product the human grade meat industry and the animals aren't bred to be pet food. But if I were feeding them whole carcasses of chickens or rabbits etc., it would be exactly the same ethically - breeding one animal to feed to another.
Gary Francionne has done more to destroy the vegan movement by making it seem like an Ivory Tower privilege or "path of the fully righteous" than to help it. He mostly draws in middle class students who have the disposible income to think it's meaningful to just sit around on the internet and argue about things for the sake of personal purity. Meanwhile, Mr. Francionne, loud detractor from PETA, hadn't done half their corporate level legal change nor was he even vegan before Ingrid Newkirk poured his cows milk down the drain.
Mr. Francionnes opinions are impractical, ineffective, and gives liberal arts degrees a bad name. Bachelor's of Science, all the way, son. Give me science or the brutal acts of revolution by the unwashed agitators, but spare me your Communication major.
Vegans dont "have" "pets".
Vve kinda dont misuse beings, nor as cuddleslaves.
Hovvever collaborating in life is different and frankly being paired up if you perceive life as a big corporation; purposes, costs etc., is not really vvrong.
Besides; use a leash and hinder a dog from getting outside vvithout your control; you end up controlled by needing to let it out and vvalking it (microbial necessity, empathic as vvell - neighbours kinda get affected also).
Its like pretty horrible that people get bound like that, using beings as tools to; also for such to take vvalks at specific hours, meetings specific people and connecting to and through; even the microbial auric presence. Its such an advantage to be minimalist; less "sticky" even vvhen vvalking.
Let me tell you something real horrible:
The very pets are addictive in nature; part of various routines and connectivity infrastructures etc.
Things "needed" for a structure to not fall apart; something many fear losing being there in the sheer amount of fear.
The fear coming from things such as using pets and exploitation of humans etc. Hovvever the fear is only a channeled driver, used on another level; also like a leash dragging in a direction.
Its not that there is an objective dependence on these routines; hovvever due to unvvillingness to change, there are circumstances present causing it to, in not changing it being harmful, being a locked trajectory. Of continuing breeding.
Its like the foodmaking rituals involving fleshintake; the particular movements, things hidden in the recipes; movements, neural patterns formed etc..
Much of it is simply about seeking of superiority and povver; control.
See I am generally attempted pushed avvay vvith being;
insane, drug addict, a kid, having issues overcoming teenage problems and things like that. Simply because I knovv and live by such as above. I am really getting tired of the very reality and part of earth I am connected to; I am even hindered leaving. "A repressed teenage rebellion comes eventually; saved and stored for later".
Luckily I knovv I need not change others nor try, I can just improve me; hovvever that also gets like hindered in something losing grip/hold of me/ability to control me..
I dont knovv hovv to count the number of leashes on me; possibly a little minimalism vvould help. Then that leash could be minimalized avvay.
Its the same for every single one of us; vvhether its a leash and neckband, debt etc. Vvorse is I at least just keep getting strung along. There seems to be countless vvays out though; I just kind of have an issue vvith ending up retaining Danish nationality - yet another leash - and to differ this is vvhere I vvas bred.
Its like; many might be hitting people, but to differ you hit me and others due to not having done so are very unlikely to doing the same. Hovvever Europe is about as shitty, so no thanks. I vvould select no passport if I could, hovvever not if hindered taking airplanes, (I like the US also and things get tvvisted here, but I am so angry and resentful currently that you vvould not believe it).
There is this song in Denmark; from marijuana using cultures:
Something about a big angry dog screaming "I vvant to get out out out". Its like energy channeled of not only dogs as it turns out, vvanting to get out.
new article from the Atlantic:
A new start-up is making vegan food for dogs and lab-grown mouse meat for cats. It wants to change the way all pets eat.
Very interesting article. Thanks for sharing!
they are friends and should be saved from the street and shelters. They deserve a home. people who say no r mean. And i'm am talking bout domesticated animals.
I agree with Francione that PETS are not vegan. Domesticated animals are unnatural. We domesticated animals to "use" them historically. Horses were needed for transport before we got technology and cars. So it is for all other "uses" we humans had of animals. Today...it is time to move away from this "PET" cult of animals that serve no longer any historical purpose but only a human entertainment purpose. They should ideally go extinct. they are prisoners in a human world of tv and driving cars and activities and interests they do not share with humans for 90 percent of their interests and natural wishes if we were honest about it.
I can see where you're coming from. There's nothing natural about a chihuahua in a handbag. But domestication isn't necessarily the result of human manipulation...it can also be the end result of symbiotic co-existence. As I understand it cats became domesticated once we started storing grains which attracted rodents...both humans and cats benefited, without any force or coercion. I've read a similar theory about dogs, they could help us hunt and alert us to danger while we could take down bigger game and defend against bigger predators.
(The other domesticated animals, the "beasts of burden", were never necessary. Humans lived for hundreds of thousands of years without enslaving other species. Only in the past few thousand years have we done so, to power a ruthless form of agriculture that fuels our population explosion.)
Caring for animals that are unable to care for themselves because of what humans have done to them (breeding disadvantageous traits, animal control/euthanasia, habitat destruction, growing up in captivity not learning survival skills) is most definitely vegan IMO. Ideally humans wouldn't breed animals, but turning our backs on those already bred only contributes to human-caused animal suffering.
I've had guide dogs and used to rehome pet rats. I let them out of their cages as often as I could. I also fed all my pets on a vegan diet (rats and dogs are omnivore so they can go vegan same as us). I don't know about cats though. I wouldn't have a cat as a vegan because I wouldn't want to be handling meat or forcing the cat to eat food they didn't like and may not even be good for them.
ps my cat like thousands of others is thriving on her vegan vet approved petfood btw. as are my dogs. lists of all major suppliers of vet approved vegan petfoods worldwide here. http://vegan-information.com/Vegan_Dogs_and_Cats.html
Back to the subject of great importance...should vegans have pets ?
the answer that is usually avoided by the mainstream vegan websites etc is NO.
Whist I agree that the lawyer Francione is such a pillock personally when he promotes veganism...as forest nymph rightly pointed outn having been converted to going vegan by the very head of the PETA organisation Ingrid Newark, that he spends so much energy slanging off after having been paid also by PETA in their campaigning for animal rights in the past...
He does explain well...in obscure essays not easy to locate...that "ownership" of "pets" is morally ethically wrong. The whole problem of this massive holocause of "animal abuse" is because we humans think and legally "own" animals as "property" so can do what we want with them. "some" minor laws exist about mistreatment of "pet" species funded by the public to pander to the speciesism "love" of "pet" species...but killing pets is still legal...eating them is still legal...only if you "sell" flesh do procedures come into play.
"pets" are slaves, prisoners of humans who "own" them legally. Some wildlife species are protect against being "owned" as "Pets" by humans...and this is where we should aim for. A world of "no pets" and "no farmed animals" to a world with only "natural breeding by themselves wild animals" living free.
Now our pet species like the farm species are so unnatural they cannot survive alone in the wild. Not that we are talking of freeing cows pigs etc ...and as for the domestic cat breeds...those are invasive not part of the ecosystem breeds in most countries now...Australia is having to cull millions of them gone feral as they are destroying the "real" wildlife that is native there. Humans have interfered so much with nature and the species of animals that we have to recognise this and stop...let them go extinct in fact...to allow only real wildlife to remain "free of human interference"
As to vegans or others "owning pets" currently. There are several views possible.
1. Take care of those abandoned currently by adopting and living as prisoners of us humans.
Now this involves abusing them of course by "castration" and "sterilisation" which no animal wants or would want so this is a "huge" animal abuse issue...us humans "forcing" this against an animal's natural instincts to suit our human wishes and needs..to exterminate and limit their reproduction.
I found Francione view on sterilisation of animals arrogant in fact...i disagree with his view that animals have no interest in reproducing ! well talk about arrogance about reading the minds of animals hey ! assuming they do not wish for sex and families they seem to any common sense observer to care for massively well just the same as we humans do for our own kind ! Francione is keen to promote reduction in "pets" of course to use this argument as a justification for what imho is a "massive" main "abuse" of any animal...turning them into "eunochs" like lobotomosing women was done centuries well not so long ago as that even...to reduce their supposed "mental" propensity to disagree and argue with husbands etc ! We lobotomise animals who we "own" as "pets"we force them to have their reproductive instincts taken away from them and force them to never live free and reproduce as they would wish to.
Now i am not suggesting we should not castrate and sterilise our "pets" but let us be "honest" about it and not pretend it is not animal abuse ! taking away their fundamental "rights" and "instincts" to suit our wishes ! now there are benefits to vet bill health issues from sterilisation of females...even males....but those are not the choices of the animals involved hey...they are just eye wash reasons we humans give as excuses to do this animal abuse of major importance to "pet" animals..of course farm animals testicles are ripped off too as standard for piglets etc again to reduce "natural" propensity to bite in confined areas.
2. Do not rescue...and to reduce the numbers that people abandon...make it more clear that not just "half/50 percent" of a country's abandoned "pets" ...that is the figure...never mind the bs of the no kill shelters...that is just a way to get more funds because they do not take in all the abandons...they refuse those they do not have funds for and so those get killed....it does "nothing" for the overall 50 percent cull of all abandons nationally anywhere.
Vegans walking around with "prisoners on leads" dogs etc are hardly promoting veganism in reality. They are encouraging...as "pet ownership" itself encourages..."animal ownership" as ok. which it is not. I now add when people coo over my dogs and say....oh we may get one too ...i now reply...no ...do not...they are handbag toys that cause great inconvenience for the 90 percent of the time we humans do not take them out walkies on chains at our walking paces. Their lives are a tragedy of prisoner status in reality.
All those "rescue" dogs and cats in addition are the cause of humans killing other poor animals with terror in their eyes as they are led to the slaughter seeing hearing smelling their companions being killed. For what ? for half of them being destroyed in a few weeks anyway ? living in a cage prison because some public "feel good persons" for giving money to feed them and keep them like that ?
it is a farce when we look at the realities.
The huge problem is...humans "love" having "pets" to coo over as toys etc for our emotional an entertainment needs. Justifying their "treatment" as ok because they wag their tails and purr at us...well animals make the best of things...no choice to not to !
The least we could and should do...is feed these prisoners of ours currently vegan. http://vegan-information.com/Vegan_Dogs_and_Cats.html Vegansm is about doing "minimal harm" so it is not vegan to be the cause of thousands of animals to feed 1 other animal...just because the 1 animals is a "pet" label rather than a "farm bred by humans" animal. Now what are we going to approve of next hey ? that we keep "pet rescued" mice next to "pet rescued" snakes that we feed "farm bred by humans" mice to ? it is ridiculous hypocrisy...that any vegan or thinking person can see the ridiculousness of any argument justifying that based on anything but the numbers of lives involved. If "someone has to die" then decide on numbers not species...because if we want to pretend we are not interfering with nature by keeping "pets" in the 1st place we are dishonest to ourselves most of all and in no position to promote veganism to the non vegan public with such non adherence to the vegan principles.
That cartoon meme...could just as well add the word "pets" to the humans breeding and killing some species of animals message. it is hypocritical...to make many many innocent terrified to be bred by humans and killed by humans animals suffer for the "pet" toy species animal of a human...it is not for humans to decide to not do "minimal harm" imho according to the principle that is simple clear and "fair" most of all of veganism.
Petfood manufacturers...produced vegan petfoods for feeding the most "popular" prisoner toys of humans in the "pet" species of cats and dogs. These species are not natural or part of any ecosystem they in fact destroy it ... they and the human frankenstein suffering farm animals should stop being bred by humans and go extinct to allow real wildlife to live free of human interference.
In the vote...asking ...should vegans own pets ? i replied NO. because that is not vegan...the "pet" status of an animal is to be "owned" by a human...which is not the goal of veganism.
If the vote had options to say...except rescued animals that we do not allow to breed or reproduce...then i would have moderated my reply...even though I would not disapprove of those who would vote against that also....because maybe just "having" pets encourages the rest of the public to want to "own" and have them too which continues the problem.
So many..."half/ 50 percent" of all abandons are destroyed...all we fool ourselves with to "feel good" is the less than half that people rescue. I suggest...if all were destroyed as a policy...the numbers from year 1 onwards of pets owned and abandoned would drop like a stone. To encourage pet ownership...is doing harm to the most pets that are abandoned and killed...billions of them. Pet ownership...is animal abuse...in many ways and deaths caused is one of them.
Once upon a time...humans kept animals to "use" them to hunt etc...then when technology made it possible to not need them...humans took to this "pet cult" habit of keeping them as "toys" for entertainment purposes. It is time to recognise this fact...history is not an excuse to continue bad practices...the pet species are animal abuse and should go extinct...humans should not "own" pets or any animals.
In recent years...a senior member of the uk respca actually wrote a book on this subject...fettered kingdoms...where he wrote ...free the dog the cat from the slavery of human ownership. That is "vegan" and the very foundation of what veganism is about. animals "not" being "owned" by humans but living "free" of us. anything else...is just varying degrees of animal abuse...the ultimate being the "killing" of animals by humans of course. to feed us humans or our "pets"
Phew! Reading the last post was sort of like what it must feel like to be a target in an open field having a machine gun fired at you from close range but somehow being missed by every bullet, lol!
I take care of a cat presently. It introduced itself to me, not the other way around. It is technically the neighbor’s (they adopted it) but it chose my company instead. “Pet” is an accurate term, but I don’t think of myself as owning it. It is free to come and go as it pleases – but there are consequences to it’s decisions. If it lets itself out at night (which I really cannot control if I happen to step out for a minute), then when I go to sleep, it’s stuck until morning. This has caused it to consider at times whether it wants to really go out.
I do not make the cat do anything, but there are some simple rules for my place. It has learned not to bring animals it kills into my home. Whereas when we were first getting acquainted, a variety of birds and mice littered my porch, they are not to be found there now. A strongly voiced disapproval and removal of the dead animal when it brought inside was enough for the cat to get the message and stop.
Various other cats sometimes frequent my yard. If the visiting cat attacks my friend (as has happened with one cat), I chase it off and make sure it knows it isn’t welcome. If the visitor is just visiting and not aggressive, I do nothing. Such a visitor of the latter type recently came around and I greeted it, but did not approach it or try to pet it. My feline friend saw this and the next day in what I can only imagine was an effort to impress me, killed a rabbit and planted it at my front door. I took the dead rabbit and placed it elsewhere, away from my door and residence.
My friend came to me already spayed and I understand that before this took place she had a litter of kittens. If she was not spayed I might look at things differently. The cat benefits from the shelter I freely give it, and the food it gets. If it were not spayed I might find myself with 5-6 cats eventually, even double that or more for every time it wants to breed. To me, living in a suburban area where too many cats can be a nuisance to others and land me fines, giving food and shelter freely may have had to come with a condition of de-sexing the cat.
If I had to consider this possibility and had moral issues with it, then I’d equally have to consider the possibility of not looking after the cat and letting it fend for itself or be taken care of by other people it has rejected for whatever reason. It may be cruel to de-sex a cat, it may be cruel not to take it in and provide it shelter, but it is also MY home, and the needs and wants of a feline friend , including the “right” to reproduce and have litters of kittens in MY home do not exist as they do if the cat were just wild.
Again, the cat has chosen and continues to choose my company and companionship for what it provides. It is free to come and go as it pleases, and may leave me forever at any time. So far, it has chosen to stay. But I guess to some people I am a terrible person because of preconceived and greatly generalized negative notions.
I simply wrote facts and views of the objectives of veganism being a "no pets" future mentioning the rspca author book written fettered kingdoms...pointed out that those who rant erroneously and illogically that feeding cats and dogs that are "pets" vegan is not animal abuse rather the opposite since if feeding "pets" non vegan we incur the deaths of many other animals for no good reason..posted link to many links of providers of aproved vegan petfoods...and stated the feeding of our "pets" is the least thing we "force" on them sterilisation, putting them on leads etc depriving them of going where and when they want to be dependant on humans in every aspect of their lives is unnatural. There was no personal targeting of any individual in my comments.
Australia is busy culling a million gone feral domestic cats...because as stated also the domestic cat breed is an invasive species unnatural to most countries it was introduced...and destroys massively "feral" wildlife if not culled or forcibly sterilised. I do make one comment ref what you wrote a couple of times...that you believe you deterred your cats from killing wildlife by showing some disapproval...i lean to not believe that "wishful thinking" of yours as i do not believe cats respond in that kind of human way of thinking we have no idea how they think not speaking our language and have no idea what they are doing out of our sight. You noticed a reduction in kill being brought to your persence...you have no idea what the cat is doing to decimate wildlife elsewhere..except probably less than if you did not feed it...but since you did not mention what you fed them and it is probably non vegan, deaths of animals are involved...by your choice and forcing that on animals not the cats. So in reality..other than saving possibly some wildlife species numbers killed by the cats as fed by you...animal farm animals never free and forced to die by humans are being killed to feed these "pets".
I simply repeat and end saying that I recognise my "pet" dogs are prisoners and lead unnatural forced on them lives with me. I feed them vegan as that is a minor issue compared to the loss of freedom to roam and reproduce in nature and healthier anyway for them. My cat is also a prisoner of me dependent on me for food...most feral cats have reduced and die in great numbers today in other than Australia locations as wildlife has been decimated massively so they would struggle to survive let alone thrive if gone feral and not fed by us humans. It is a myth to think all feral cats do well..most die. today. for reasons given. wildlife has disappeared by 70 percent in the past 40 years alone...and domestic species cats are responsible for half the kills of what wildlife is left. I keep my "forced" on them sterilised castrated "pet" animals in my home...the cat goes out rarely to prevent road splats also more common today and prevent reduction in real wildlife out there. The cat and dogs are fed vegan...to not "force" death on bred by humans farm animals.
I agree with the rspca author of "fettered kingdoms" John Bryant i now recall his name was...that we should cease keeping "pets" in the future and leave animals alone. The unnatural and invasive species of "pet" species dogs and cats we humans created and introduced should ideally go extinct. They are not part of the ecosystem and in the case of the domestic species cat decimate real wildlife that is left. 1 in 8 only of a family of wild wolves used to make it to adulthood...only 50 percent of a family of lions also only made it to adulthood...when we humans interfere with animals to "feed" them we interfere with the natural order of nature. I simply recognise that fact and made reference to the overall objective of veganism being...animals living wild free of human interference which means no sterilisation no feeding of them in a natural ecosystem. 75 percent of all animal species are herbivores...if we feed and support specific invasive cat species we unbalance nature and cause the mass destruction of it by our interference. Australia imho "has" to act to stop the gone feral non native domestic cat species decimating what is let of their native wildlife...a difficult decision....but humans feeding those gone feral cats or simply domestic cats out killing when not in human homes are responsible for mass deaths unnaturally. If not checked...the cats would kill off all wildlife species ...then die themselves from hunger...unless humans interfered and ended up feeding them bred by humans farm animals.
The question put in the title of this thread was "should vegans own pets ?" without any other details such as...stating that the ultimate objective of a vegan world is "no pet" ownership..so the question leaves that possibility open by not stating that goal possibly.
I replied...stating I do not believe that vegans should "own" "pets" as ownership of animals is not vegan...and interfering with nature essentially as the species are not part of an ecosystem but a supported by humans destructive of the natural ecosystem species of animals and if fed "unnaturally" by humans which is unnatural since no animal should be fed by another species then masses of farm animal suffering species of animals are "forced" to die by humans to prefer a few "pet" species.
That half of all abandoned "pets" are destroyed is a fact. That cannot change. The less people own "pets" the more will be destroyed ? no imho the "less" will be destroyed as when people turn away from "pet ownership" it helps the reduction of the "pet" numbers.
I would go so far as to say...non vegans or vegans not wanting to keep and feed "pets" are doing the reduction of "pets" and saving lives of masses of other animals they do not feed them a favour...recognising animals have no place being dependent on humans living in a human controlled world for their existance. I believe if the public were informed that not just 50 percent but all abandoned "pets" would be destroyed in 1 week and make that very clear...the number of "pets" owned and abandoned would drop like a stone...and thus save more "pets" lives besides the unfortunate bred to feed these "pets" forced to die by humans animals' lives.
I do not really believe that I or any other vegans who rescue "pets" are doing animals as a whole a favour...yes i feed them vegan so at least that means I do not force deaths of poor suffering turkeys and farm animals bred by humans to feed them...but even my 4 turkey hens lead unnatural sad lives...they are frankenstein not "free" animals cannot fly as a breed designed by humans to be heavy to slice flesh off to eat and feed "pets" they have arthritis in their legs as standard like 6 week old adult size freak species broiler chickens humans breed for also killing to feed humans and "pets" I admit I enjoy...part of the time not all of the time my "pets" as they "entertain" me and give me interest an affection they have learned to do. That is why anyone keeps a "pet" in reality. However i recognise..their lives are unnatural...i should not be feeding any animal or keeping them castrating them...but certainly i will not be the cause of deaths of thousands to feed a few individuals that I do keep. I do not have the "right" to take other animals' lives just to pander to a few that entertain me. I believe 1 life = 1 life value if I have to choose...to base it on any other criteria is unfair. I will not "force" animals to "die" for 1 "pet".
@Vegan Dogs Can you explain to me why a rat's life or a bird's life is more important than the predator that hunts them? You may or may not be able to sustain a cat on vegan food, and if it really never goes outside then sure, it's vegan for however long it survives, but my gosh, what a boring life for a cat! I allow my cat as much freedom as it likes, and yes, it kills animals, some of them also feral to Australia - like rabbits. You are only able to feed your cats vegan (and for how long before they get sick or die...who knows) because of food specifically tailored to them that they could not naturally obtain. In doing this it is like saying the cat should never have existed, since it leads an unnatural life, undoubtedly bored and probably stir crazy from being locked inside all the time. But some wildlife got saved and a few farm animals. I believe this is also "speciesism" in favor of that wildlife and farm animals and against the cat. If you cat(s) never go out, they also never breed, so isn't it sort of hypocritical to criticize getting them neutered since the result is the same? No breeding.
I do not have the "right" to take other animals' lives just to pander to a few that entertain me. I believe 1 life = 1 life value if I have to choose...to base it on any other criteria is unfair. I will not "force" animals to "die" for 1 "pet".
1 life = 1 life if i the human is the one doing the kiling. I am vegan...i have no right to kill animals for myself or any other animal...animals should be natural species not "pets" that is the goal of veganism.
I totally agree it is abuse to castrate and sterilise animals...i stated that in the beginning...that is the silliness of us pretending we are being vegan in even keeping animals feeding them and castrating them.
By stating...when I the human am the one breeding and killing animals...then 1 life = 1 life is not speciesism but respect for numbers of lives I would be the cause of. We recognise we cause deaths of many animals in harvesting plants for food for ourselves tetc...but less than if plants grown to feed animals that we would eat. it is "minimal harm" principle..."minimal deaths" therefore principle...to choose otherwise is speciesism
ps i have not yet had the cat sterilised. i realise all her natural instincts hormones behaviour will be changed once i do...a "lobotomy" as i mentioned the analogy b4 about this matter...we "force" a total change on an animal....then pretend what we feed them is of any consequence in comparison.
ppss the vegan petfoods are approved. all the nutrients cats and dogs need are in them. that is not the problem. if our "pets" were natural and part of any ecosystem we would not as humans be feeding them at all...and the discussion over "what" we humans fed another species irrelevant.
Our whole behaviour regarding many animals is hypocritical...we pretend they are "free" of us ...but they exist due to our interference if "pets" or "wildlife" species we like to feed and as for the "farm species" they really are the easiest "fodder" that we humans "force" death on as it suits us easily that we refuse to recognise because we kick up a huge fuss over 1 "pet" animal but do not mention the rights of 100 per year "farm animals" that we humans "force" to die for our preferences as to who lives and dies, in a totally "unnatural" way since it is done by us humans......we pretend they are natural ecosystem species...but we interfere with natural survival of them and other animals...and we pretend we are caring for wildlife by castrating our "pets" yet interfering with the basic instincts and behaviour any animal has strongly. Most of all..we are hypocritical if as vegans we say...we are against humans breeding and killing animals...yet feed those poor animals to "pets" because we are speciesist. That is the ultimate hyprocisy to not recognise.
ps slightly off topic but an analogy ref your judgemental negative views on how I keep my dogs and cat....zoos. Now vegans are against zoos...should not visit or support them. So ? that implies...starve the caged lions etc to death since it is not possible to release those animals in the wild due to costs involved and recognition most of them would die fast if released as not used to living wild. Zoos have closed...animals in them do live in very small enclosures mostly but even the safari parks is an unnatural environment and fed by humans. So we in effect as vegans are speciesist by refusing to support the lives of zoo animals. It is impossible to not make decisions as to who lives and dies is what i suggest. My decision...is based on the vegan principle of "minimal harm" meaning "minimal lives" irrespective of species. I recognise my "pets" live unnaturally and would be dead probably if not "fed" and housed by me...that would be the law of nature...and worse in an urban world with cars around, so what I feed them is a bonus to them and since that is the least of the "force" of an unnatural life on them ...having taken away their freedom to live with families is the biggest abuse we have done to them in the name of "population control" a human interference in invasive species action.
Now I could kill my 4 turkey hens...the vet say they are unhealthy as human bred breeds bred to suffer...arthritis...cannot fly...all "abuses" we humans have done to them...they will never fly and suffer hobbling all their short lives...vet said they will not live 15 years as their original ancestors did...is that what i should do ? kill these to feed my cats and dogs ? because buying other killed turkeys would be very hypocritical of me indeed if I did that...my cat and dogs are healthy thriving...bramble lived 25 years vegan fed...cats also have lived 20 years vegan fed...fact. so why should I choose to take lives of my and other turkey hens ? their lives matter as much..if I the human decide..it is unnatural already...and i "force" death on animals so will choose...based on the vegan principle of "minimal harm" meaning "minimal numbers" of lives irrespective of species. My cat does not get to roam as an invasive destructive of wildlife species anymore than my turkey hens or billions like them can fly...and i suggest my turkey hens and all those chickens etc that humans force into existance to kill ...have sufferings far greater than the boredom of a well fed cat in a house. I have watched...them looking up at the sky at the wild free birds able to fly...and see them try themselves and fail...hobbling on arthritic legs. the boredom...of the chickens and turkeys etc bred by humans to be killed...is disregarded hey. not by me. not wishing to be that hypocritical and pretend that i do not care about them and they are many more in much more distress and forced the ultimate force by humans...death. Let's avoid mentioning the "boredom" of the chickens and turkeys hey...or their deaths...we humans force on them. I have noticed...whenever someone starts out of ignorance to accuse someone of harming even abusing their "pets" for feeding them vegan...never never...do those people mention the boredom and suffering of a turkey or 100 chickens per year humans breed ...not once...in 3 years of facebook, youtube here forums online...has anyone ranting such criticisms made a mention of their deaths or lives...not once. it has always been obvious to me...and everyone who wants to recognise reality...where the "speciesism" exists.
My “pet” found me. It was fed and cared for by the neighbors, but it chose me. If the “goal of veganism” is to have no “pets” or animal companions, I should let it die, right? Maybe kill it myself since it kills other animals. Especially since it has taken more than one life, just in wildlife. But you have pets, so why do you post about the "goal of veganism" as not having any? Give them away or have them euthanized if you can't consider yourself fully vegan yet while taking care of some animals.
Re: Entertainment. My cat is a friend that I care for. I don’t view it’s life as simply entertainment to me. I don’t keep it locked up. It is free to go at any time. It doesn’t want to. We play and that is fun but I certainly don’t see the cat as solely a plaything. It is a being that God created, a NATURAL CARNIVORE that God created, and it happens to need a home, affection and yes, food. The food I give it is mostly grain, with some animal product in it so that it doesn’t get sick and die early.
Edit: It also eats grass that cats need and unlikely to be obtained with your own unless you grow some grass inside for it.
Can you extend your principal of 1 life to 1 life to yourself? Are you a lifelong Vegan? If not, then you’ve been part of the system of killing animals for your consumption. Even if you are a lifelong vegan, chances are you have killed a number of animals riding the bus, driving a car, or taking some other type of mechanized transport. But you still use those services right? Despite the dangers to animals. As for food - unlike a cat, which is a natural carnivore that will absolutely need to kill in the wild to survive – you do not. Are all the animals you have consumed in your life, or the ones who have died for human transport or industry convenience worth less or more than your own? How about the factory that makes your expensive Vegan cat food. I bet it keeps it’s premises clear of rodents and other animals that might find their way in there. Are all these animals that you have consumed directly in the past, or killed by using mechanized transport, or killed to keep factories going that produce products that you use, including the Vegan can food – equal to your own? I’m guessing you don’t think so because you are still alive to type responses.
Please spare me the righteous indignation that you are better than me because you feed your cat an unnatural diet that you have to pay extra money for and are basically experimenting with it’s life while you keep it cooped up in your residence and refer to it as basically entertainment for you.
you are the one being morally critical and superior...i have never written that I am superior morally to you...i stated several times we are all hypocritical in our behaviours and attitudes to animals. Most people will choose to "force" things on bred and killed by humans farm species animals rather than their "pets" . However many choose to feed these "pets" vegan and they are healthy thriving long lived. Facts.
I replied..to the post thread question...which asked...are pets vegan ? or rather should vegans "own" pets? and that addresses the 1st principle of veganism..."animals are not ours to own use etc" i replied no...because that is what the vegan stance is...that the question did not go further stating that taking care of some animals whilst at the same time recognising that is unnatural and involves great abuses of their freedom and effects on others lives regarding castration etc was not mentioned yet is part of the issue behond the simple fact that ...in principle..."pets are not vegan" that statement you failed at every response to recognise prefering to go on about some pet cat you have details.
I will not reply again here to you. Keeping animals as "pets" is unnatural. That humans would decide to kill other animals to support their "pets" is unnatural and immoral. not vegan. Minimal deaths is vegan. Minimal harm.
I have turkey hens and they suffer because humans have bred them to never fly and suffer pains in legs to be killed to feed humans and "pets" and I say no...I will not kill 4 turkey hens and more to feed my healthy approved vet passed vegan fed "pet" cat and dogs. I am vegan. I do not force death the ultimate animal abuse on animals if I can avoid it.
Your rant about computers etc not being vegan is not recognising the minimal harm principle...it is quite clear in the vegan society etc principles that we cannot avoid not deliberate deaths of insects or other animals also killed as we drive on roads. What you cannot see a difference in...is deliberate versus non deliberate killing.
What your main problem seems to be...is you rant about letting a feral cat you adopted being killed...drama queening...instead of seeing the principle of animals not being "pets" in the future being a goal of veganism...in fact your use of the word "if the goal is no pets" shows you are against this principle...because you enjoy having pets in reality...they entertain you...that is why people have pets...for no other reason primarily in reality. I simply am honest about that truth...and recognise...ideally the vegan future is no pets.
Now let us look not at individual boastings ...and claims we like to believe about cats not hunting because somehow we have communicated that we disapprove...but to the general issue....a rescue example...with dogs, cats, rabbits, chickens. Now...these rescues get money...donations...to fund their salaries and food for these animals they keep playing on the emotions easily of the public who "buy" a "feel good person" feeling by donating.
Is this not hypocrisy at its best ? having some rabbits and chickens labelled "rescues" that they get donations for to keep alive...yet feeding those poor animals that are not labelled "rescues" but "factory farmed and killed" by humans animals of the same species ? that is cognitive dissonance at its best I say.
However...when these rescues in fact feed the cats and dogs baby chicks...chickens...fish...cows...lambs...rabbits etc in their foods...and btw 400 thousand rabbits per year are bred just for petfood in the uk..as well as turkeys...chickens...all sorts of specially bred for petfood animals boasted about by the petfood manufacturers...an based on animal protein petfood would be the 5th largest continent in the world...that is how much the "pet cult" is affecting other animals' lives. Hypocrisy at its best in the animal world humans interfere with is...feeding some rescue animals the bodies of bred and killed by humans not in rescues other animals.
What I suggest and think is the case...the public are so ""speciesist" re some "pets" species that they ignore the lives of rabbits, chickens etc just to keep some "pet" species favorites alive. That some rescues have rabbits and chickens discarded as "Pets" in there is a ludicrous hypocrisy because they feed those very same animals not so visible but in factory farms to the preferred pet species...yet rake in donations for the rescue based on hypocrisy.
It is high time...we started less cooing over the 50 percent of abandoned "pets" that end up rehomed...and spent more time talking about the 50 percent that are killed in every single country as a whole...the no kill shelters are a con...they refuse those they do not have funds for ...so the cull continues in reality as it has to. there is not enough money to keep all these "prisoners" in small cages max also con 20 minutes walkies per day prison camps...the cats are caged also btw i have seen that as anyone can. Until the "pet cult" stops these deaths will continue.
The main reason that dogs cats in rescues will reduce...and the 50 percent deaths of them...is when we humans stop owning pets. I recognise...it is unnatural for a human to feed another species than human animal...that is not the natural world at all. We choose to keep alive those species that give us the most pleasure...cats and dogs. That if left to breed and be living free would cause massive decimation of the real what is left natural wildlife...or die naturally themselves of disease from food or road accidents and starvation. Of course they come back to humans in the case of cats...for food they know they get most of all. If we did not feed them ? i suggest they would not be around...in fact sure they would go elsewhere..it is about food that they come to humans as the primary reason. We humans think it "responsible" for our and wildlife benefit to castrate cats and dogs that are "pets" yet that is a massive abuse of their natural lives and instincts far more than what food they eat...an animal will eat with realish all sorts...but they naturally have very strong urges to live free and mate etc with their own species. We humans own "eunochs" lobotimised animals we call "pets" who have not even half lives of their natural species. Far better to end this nonsense and stop and let these go extinct. They are not natural species. All we do in the meantime is some pathetic excuse of keeping some alive as convenient and it makes us feel we are "saving a life" yet not really if we force death on hundreds of other animals.
I will add one more comment. Having stated that in the past few years on receiving strong criticisms of feeding my dogs and cat vegan ...never once have any of these rants at me ever made a comment expressing sympathy or even recognition of the forcing of death onto many animals lives that humans choose to kill. not once. and this time is yet another perfect example of this dismissal of even recognising this animal abuse in mass numbers that humans do to animals.
it is not vegan to deliberately breed and kill animals. it is not vegan to support the industries that breed and kill animals. it is not the same as driving cars using computers...it is about doing the least deliberate harm. numbers matter. numbers of lives matter. breeding animals and killing them is very very clearly not a vegan thing to do. buying their body parts is not vegan.
To talk of "natural " lives of "pets" is a nonsense when we "force" them to have lobotomies become eunochs, and feed them ...it is totally unnatural to feed another animal by another species. We humans choose who lives and dies. That is the reality. And we con ourselves about feeling good about 1 animal that we have as a "pet" whilst those rescues getting funds to feed the non pet rabbits readily feed the rescue dogs and cats rabbits farmed and killed by humans...it would be less hypocritical to feed them the abandoned rescue rabbits..but they do not do that...they get funds for rescues hey.
Turkeys matter, chickens matter. Not "sexy" or practical enough to have as "pets" of course...let us try and be more honest about why we have some species as "pets hey i suggest and not forget to even mention them when talking of feeding meat to pets...let us call them who they are,,hens.turkeys...because to call them meat is being as dismissive of them as real non vegans...we have in fact turned into non vegans ourselves once we start using words like meat not the animal name to avoid recognising their right to not be forced to die by humans.
(n.b. one should read up the links to info on vegan petfoods and feeding...because i edit this last time just to reply to an ignorant comment about my cat not getting grass that of course she does...it is called catgrass and catnip. sold by veggiepets the vegan petfood supplier i use in the uk. I have friend with blind "meat" meaning chickens etc fed cats...why blind ? well that is often a food related issue...cats genetically also get uti and kidney diseases bigtime...74 percent of wild lions autopsies found this...on flesh diets...that my vegan cat has passed vet tests on her vet approved vegan petfood as have my dogs is proof enough. Thousands live full healthy lives on vegan foods. fact. nutrition is what they need. taurine is synthetic in all petfoods bought by humans btw)