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The complain about irrational omnis thread

Discussion in 'Lounge' started by Forest Nymph, Sep 6, 2018.

  1. Forest Nymph
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    Forest Nymph Active Member

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    So today I'm out in the field with other people who study environmental science (like, you know, people who should be at least a little objective about science in general) and one of my classmates starts speculating on why dogs can eat feces but humans don't. His first hypothesis was that humans are "brainwashed" but I pointed out that when we think something smells bad it protects us from eating poison or from eating spoiled food or anything toxic in general. Then I said, "also, dogs are carnivores so their stomach acids are more acidic..."

    Automatically, he cuts me off, and says "I'm not going to talk to you about this" and walks away.

    LOL WTF.

    I was actually in a pleasant mood and wasn't even trying to give a vegan lecture, I was just offering scientifically plausible answers to his question. He wouldn't even listen to a credible scientific explanation because I was offering it and he knows I'm a vegan. Well.

    Then I came here and looked around for a "gripe" thread and couldn't find one...so fellow forum members, please feel free to use this thread to post about similar gripes.
     
  2. Lou
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    Lou Well-Known Member

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    My sister's dog eats my sister's cat's poop. She says that her vet says that a cat's digestive system is not totally effective. That there is still nutrients in the cat's poop. and the dog smells them. Some dogs are a bit neurotic about food and will eat when not hungry or maybe they are just always hungry. So that happens.

    Anyway, I have no idea if that all is true or even partly true. Although I've seen for myself the dog eating cat poop. Even when it is still coated with kitty litter.

    I'm pretty sure you are right about our sense of smell protecting us from eating noxious things. ( I even recall dimly an article I read years ago that hypothesized that is the main function of our taste buds). I'm pretty sure you are right that dogs acidic stomach protect their system better than ours from spoiled food. But dogs, at least the domestic ones are always eating things they shouldn't and then throwing them back up again. I've even seen them sniffing and licking their vomit. It appears that they are thinking about eating it, too. I'm not sure what kind of survival tactic that is.

    These things might not be natural behaviors of dogs. Many of the dogs I have met are not well balanced. They are left alone too much, they are bored. they lack stimulation. Some dogs are neurotic with their relationship with food (like some people). Eating even when they are not hungry. or not know when to stop eating.

    Your "gripe" doesn't seem to have much to do with veganism. It's more of a gripe about close-minded people. Maybe there is some personal history with this person and you being a vegan.

    if pressed I could create an argument that all non-vegans are close-minded. If they were open-minded they would be vegan.

    There is a thread here somewhere about "pet hates". oh, I found it. and you have a post in it.
     
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  3. Forest Nymph
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    Forest Nymph Active Member

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    I think you raise an excellent point about neurotic dogs who might have eating disorders or engage in other forms of self-mutilation via neurosis.

    I also respect your viewpoint that perhaps this individual is just like this, in general, and is simply closed-minded.

    However, I don't have an extensive or intense history with this person, other than us sharing a major. The one incident we had involving food or eating was on a trip to a conference when the vast majority of the students chose the vegetarian restaurant (many of my cohort are vegetarian for environmental reasons, even if they aren't vegan yet) and the only people who chose the restaurant who served meat were this person, one other male student, and the professor (a woman, if that matters, I'm just pointing out it wasn't necessarily related to gender).

    That's why I do think this is specifically about veganism. Someone studying science should be able to accept - somewhat neutrally - information like "carnivores have a lower pH and more acidic saliva and digestive fluids than omnivores or herbivores." NO ONE majoring in SCIENCE should be set off by such a factual observation, and I said it quite casually, not in the context of veganism.

    This makes me think that "vegan" is a hot button issue for this individual just as "climate change" or "global warming" is for many people who voted for Donald Trump. It's an irrational bias formed to reject factual information.

    The professor in question enables it though. She's even had social gatherings for our group where she says things like "there will be meat and vegetarian options but I don't know about other dietary needs" and she's really flippant about it. She eats meat, and it's obvious she's an ostrich about the facts on animal ag and its impact on the environment, I''m waiting until I graduate to report her extensively to the administration. She's the same person who told us to "be careful" when we talk about climate change in presentations to the public. She shouldn't even be in science department, she should be demoted to environmental studies or moved to elementary education.

    Haha...anyway.

    Do you really think all non-vegans are closed minded, or do you believe that it's simply an argument you could construct convincingly? I'm just curious about your thoughts.
     
  4. Lou
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    Lou Well-Known Member

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    Oh, I don't really think all non-vegans are close-minded. But I am generally an optimistic person and try not to judge others too harshly. At least not openly. Maybe I'm less optimistic than I think and more cowardly than I think. There are more of them than there are of us.

    I'm pretty sure I could create a convincing argument that all non-vegans are close-minded. or even worse. Irrational, illogical, idiotic. but let's be generous. some of them are just ignorant. (Why are all these "I words"?) But I try to be understanding. I was a carnist myself. for more than half my life. So I really shouldn't be throwing any stones.

    I think it's pretty radical that calling a dog a carnivore is a Hot Button. That's either a pretty big or sensitive hot button.
     
  5. Forest Nymph
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    Forest Nymph Active Member

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    ...

    That's why I've created the thread. It was pretty bizarre that someone shut me down in a playful conversation that was supposed to be open to scientific questioning. It just came as kind of a shock to me - I am used to people "pushing back" if I'm being evangelical or directly challenging them or being aggressive about my views, that's expected. To have someone walk away from a non-related conversation just because I'm vegan really grates, like "oh hi, thanks for disregarding my opinion because I'm vegan/female/a Lana Del Rey fan..." lol...that's why it irritated me. It reminds me too much of battles with people who deny manmade climate change.
     
  6. Lou
    Studious

    Lou Well-Known Member

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    Ok, Got it.

    Nothing like that has happened to me. So I'm just going to sit back and watch.
     
  7. Forest Nymph
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    Forest Nymph Active Member

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    Hmm...that's cool, I see a lot of people complain about it on line, that their parents or in-laws are mean to them, or that their boyfriend tells them it's "not sexy" that they're vegan now, or that their co-workers are rude to them at lunch. I've seen stories where people thought it was funny to slip vegans meat in a shared dish or something similar. I used to think "wow I'm super lucky I live in California and these things don't usually happen to me, people in California accept vegans just like they accept halal for Muslims, or the expansion of people driving hybrid or electric cars because we accept different cultures and newer technology here."

    I can honestly say that the only time I ever experienced such a thing directly was today, but I feel it's indirectly perpetuated by environmentalists around me who don't want to accept the impacts of animal ag on climate change and deforestation, I never noticed it at all when I was just working and living in L.A. tbh except on the Internet.
     
  8. Nekodaiden

    Nekodaiden Active Member

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    So far the conflict has been fairly low. Some of it I find humorous.

    A guy I work with regularly examines my food (usually just what I have out, not my bag) and likes to make comments on it. Like I might have some sunflower seeds out, or some vegetables, and his comment is "So, on the starvation diet today eh"? LOL

    Same guy has informed me that Hitler was a vegan, or at least a Vegetarian. Hehe. I'm not knocking it, I just find it humorous that his reaction is to look for extremes. The other day he told me I'm not like the vegans he has seen in life or on media, which he is disgusted with.

    Same workplace, another person (an older man) seems openly disgusted by what I eat - even though we share the same table at lunch and I have never once commented on the dead animals and animal by products they are shoving into their mouths. So the other day some other workers were marveling at my lunch: Hummus, whole wheat bread, some salsa and vegetables - and this guy said "it's not doing him any good", to which I could only think to say "Well, I don't have any issues shi*tting every day!" - which got roaring laughter from someone else.
     
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  9. Nekodaiden

    Nekodaiden Active Member

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    More of an observation than a complaint:

    The cognitive dissonance must be strong with some. I went to eat with friends last night - and they know I am vegan, as I told them last year, Christmas time. Also I have mentioned it a few times since. Still I am asked if I like this or that meat product.
    "No, I am vegan, no flesh foods. No animal products"
    Silence, then...

    "But iron..."

    "I just had a blood test done. My iron levels were fine. In fact I wasn't deficient in anything except slight Vitamin D. Triglycerides, Total Cholesterol and liver enzyme markers were all reduced. Not perfect, but reduced since last test. Not perfect because I drink too much beer. But they were all improved since last time and I was drinking the same amount last time. "

    Silence. Change of subject.

    Later...

    "you sure you don't want to try this fish??"

    "No"

    "Can vegans eat fish?"

    "No. Pescatarians do, not vegans"

    How do you fill up?

    "Fiber from whole foods"

    What kind of bread do you eat?

    "Wholegrain with a high fiber content"

    It's not for everyone

    *Shrug* I say nothing. Correcting the point would make it seem I was trying to force something when I'm not.

    What about white rice?

    "Avoid. You can eat it if your vegan, but you'll be hungry. Low fiber and nutrient content. I avoid white bread and white noodles for the same reason."

    I am enjoying the saturated fat and cholesterol from this pig *looks at me*

    This is bait. Not taking it. "uh huh"


    Got through the night with no hard feelings - just pleasant conversation and some questions. Also disbelief. One of my friends could not believe I don't eat meat. I suppose I'm the first vegan or even vegetarian he's ever met? I wonder how it will go next year.
     
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  10. TofuRobot
    Curious

    TofuRobot Active Member

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    Wow that is really quite shocking, to be honest. To meet someone who has seriously never met someone who doesn't eat animals. ! I have known people that don't/didn't eat animals for 45+ years (almost as many years as I have been alive). What with all of the plant milks in the grocery store, and the ads for Taco Bell vegan stuff, you'd have to be living under a rock or something not to have heard about someone not eating meat. Not saying that's what this person is, but I think sometimes people pretend to be more shocked than they actually are as a means to express their disdain for a choice different from theirs.
     
  11. TofuRobot
    Curious

    TofuRobot Active Member

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    On the flip side, the guy I work directly with is as far from being vegan as they come. Says he doesn't eat vegetables. I simply say "well, you should..." And leave it at that. At first he used to laugh at me, but after about 8 weeks, he has started asking me questions about nutrition. Funny that. The other day he had skipped breakfast and was complaining he was hungry, so I gave him an extra banana I had and a Lara Bar. (Then I watched that Lara Bar sit on his desk for almost 24 hrs... Dude - you better eat that or I will, LOL!)
     
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  12. Nekodaiden

    Nekodaiden Active Member

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    Oh I’m sure he’s heard of vegetarians and vegans (when I told him last year Christmas I had decided to go vegan (about 2months in at that point) he knew exactly what that was and was shocked). Everyone in the family (I am a friend of the family – all my relations save one who I don’t associate with died years ago from cancer, including my former spouse*) – eats meat and other animal products. As I have known the family for almost 2 decades it is a shock to them I chose this, because even though I had restrictions on my diet throughout the years (for example, no pork or shellfish, no cheese, very little dairy), except for this year and last I always ate meat with them at gatherings. As for if he knows any other vegans or vegetarians, I don’t know, I’ve never asked him.

    *Edit: her side of the immediate family. My blood relatives do not live here.

    Even though I told him last year, my guess is that he (along with everyone else) probably assumed it was a fad diet for me and that I wouldn’t stick with it. That’s what some neighbors thought when I mentioned it. “Oh so you’re still doing that” (after about 6 months). When I told them I haven’t eaten anything of animal origin for over a year, the response was “really?”. I think disbelief must be part of the cognitive dissonance.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2018
  13. TofuRobot
    Curious

    TofuRobot Active Member

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    @Nekodaiden - it makes them feel like they're keeping their "tribe" together by singling you out as the weird one. I remember getting that a lot from my family over the holidays. I basically became pescatarian (this was 28 yrs ago and I don't remember giving it that name at the time). My aunt said to me the first family get together, "Oh you're one of those weird vegetarians..." They'd mock me pretty much every subsequent time in one way or another. To be quite honest, they were a very toxic bunch (I no longer associate with that side of the family).
     
  14. Nekodaiden

    Nekodaiden Active Member

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    They are otherwise good people and they thought I was weird before :p . I wasn't about to(and won't) preach at them for their choices. However it is necessary that they know because when I visit I am occasionally offered food, and being vegan is not something I am ashamed of or fear public opinion of. With any luck, one or more of them will try it (health issues are a problem for some of them) and see for themselves the benefits, both personally, and externally :)
     
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