The Snowden files

[Second Summer]

I thought it would be interesting to have a thread to discuss all the various revelations that have come from documents leaked by Edward Snowden. So far we've heard about Verizon phone records and the PRISM program.

Today I read about the NSA bugging the UN headquarters in New York, tapping directly into their encrypted video conferences:
http://news.sky.com/story/1133300/nsa-bugged-un-headquarters-in-new-york

Despicable, but not surprising I suppose.

I wonder if these leaks will have any impact on US' standing in the world. The Germans seem pretty angry about what has become known, but I don't see much out outrage elsewhere among traditional allies of the US.

 

[Second Summer]

The alleged spying activities are illegal. The US has a long-standing agreement with the UN stipulating that the US refrain from covert operations with regards to the UN's activities.

NSA spied on UN, German report says (Deutsche Welle, 25.08.2013)

 

[beancounter]

All countries spy on each other.

It's hypocritical for any country to point fingers at the U.S.

The only difference is that other countries don't have "Snowdens" of their own who are willing to "out" their own country.

 

[Forster]

All countries spy on each other.

It's hypocritical for any country to point fingers at the U.S.

The only difference is that other countries don't have "Snowdens" of their own who are willing to "out" their own country.

It's one of those things that one shouldn't really be surprised about, much like we shouldn't be surprised to have it confirmed that our government is collecting and storing all our emails and phone conversations.

 

[Second Summer]

All countries spy on each other.

I'd be surprised if that were true. In any case, the UN isn't a country and is not spying on anyone. The stated aims of the UN include lofty ideas such as promoting and facilitating lasting world peace. Spying on the UN seems particularly wrong to me.

In other news: unsurprisingly, but nice to get confirmed, the NSA is sharing raw intelligence data likely to contain phone calls and emails of American citizens with their Israeli counterparts:

The disclosure that the NSA agreed to provide raw intelligence data to a foreign country contrasts with assurances from the Obama administration that there are rigorous safeguards to protect the privacy of US citizens caught in the dragnet. The intelligence community calls this process "minimization", but the memorandum makes clear that the information shared with the Israelis would be in its pre-minimized state.

NSA shares raw intelligence including Americans' data with Israel (The Guardian, 11. Sept. 2013)

Edit: This info too comes from a document leaked by Snowden.

 

[beancounter]

In any case, the UN isn't a country and is not spying on anyone.

The UN consists of representatives from countries that spy on each other.

Spies operate anywhere they can get information., regardless of the organization.

 

[Second Summer]

The UN consists of representatives from countries that spy on each other.

The UN is an intergovernmental organisation with 193 member states. The US spying was targeting the digital infrastructure of the UN organisation, not any particular member state.

Spies operate anywhere they can get information., regardless of the organization.

Bacteria infect anywhere they can get access, regardless of the host organism. But spying is not a similar "force of nature" that we can't stop. When (illegal) spying is discovered, it usually leads to unpleasant consequences for the sponsoring governments. Maybe the UN won't or can't do much to punish the US for its crimes. In any case, one of the unintended consequences here will be the undermining of the trust in the UN and its organisations.

 

[beancounter]

The UN is an intergovernmental organisation with 193 member states. The US spying was targeting the digital infrastructure of the UN organisation, not any particular member state.

So they spy on multiple countries simultaneously. I'm sure other countries spy an multiple targets, just maybe not as efficiently.

 

[ledboots]

There is no excuse for spying on the United Nations.

 

[beancounter]

I think the issue here is perception. It seems some of you believe that the US is the only country engaging in extensive spying.

That just isn't true. The only difference is that the US got caught.

Painting the US as THE evil empire, is just not accurate...

 

[Clueless Git]

Painting the US as THE evil empire, is just not accurate...

Hmmmm ....

Would "the best at being an evil empire" be more accurate?

I think governments are a bit like businesses; The only real cause they have for greivance about each others naughtinesses being that the other guy thought of it first and/or was better at getting away with it.

Jeeeez, i'm jaded ...

 

[kazyeeqen]

Hmmmm ....

Would "the best at being an evil empire" be more accurate?

Nope. Cause if it were so good at it it wouldn't be so transparent. I'd say the best ones are the ones that don't seem evil at all, cause they probably are but damn are they good at it.

 

[yakherder]

There isn't an industrialized country in the world which doesn't have a sophisticated system of gathering intelligence. The same is true for corporations. Right or wrong, it's a survival necessity. And being open about your methods of gathering intelligence would cripple your ability to do so.

 

[Clueless Git]

Nope. Cause if it were so good at it it wouldn't be so transparent. I'd say the best ones are the ones that don't seem evil at all, cause they probably are but damn are they good at it.

Are you trying to stir up trouble for Bhutan?

 

[Second Summer]

One thing is spying on your enemies - that only makes sense. It's different when you tap into the UN communication system, as presumably it's used by both the UN organisations, friends and foes.

It's yet a different thing when you start spying specifically on your supposed friends.

Fresh reports in German media based on leaked US intelligence documents are prompting damaging new questions about the extent of US surveillance.

Der Spiegel suggests the US has been spying on German Chancellor Angela Merkel's mobile phone since 2002.

Another report says Mr Obama was told in 2010 about the surveillance and failed to stop it.

Full article: NSA: New reports in German media deepen US-Merkel spy row (BBC)

Supposedly it's the worst diplomatic crisis in US - German relations in living memory. (I guess except for WW2.)

 

[beancounter]

One thing is spying on your enemies - that only makes sense. It's different when you tap into the UN communication system, as presumably it's used by both the UN organisations, friends and foes.

It's yet a different thing when you start spying specifically on your supposed friends.

Full article: NSA: New reports in German media deepen US-Merkel spy row (BBC)

Supposedly it's the worst diplomatic crisis in US - German relations in living memory. (I guess except for WW2.)

I understand that there is a big trade deal in the works that will benefit Germany. I don't think the Germans will jepordize that...

 

[yakherder]

BND (Germany's intelligence agency) isn't exactly absent of controversy. Countries are all such hypocrites.

You gather intelligence from any place which might present information relevant to the interests of whatever nation, corporation, or group you are gathering intelligence for. I realize I'm biased, given my background, but I just can't condemn the actions of NSA the way everyone else does.

 

[nigel1]

If a German Chancellor proclaims that multiculturalism is a failure and a mistake, it behooves us all to keep pretty close tabs on her. I'd be disappointed if I thought any government with the ability wasn't tapping her phone.

 

[Second Summer]

If a German Chancellor proclaims that multiculturalism is a failure and a mistake, it behooves us all to keep pretty close tabs on her. I'd be disappointed if I thought any government with the ability wasn't tapping her phone.

I guess you think David Cameron's phone needs to be tapped as well then.
State multiculturalism has failed, says David Cameron (BBC, 5 February 2011)
And Nicolas Sarkozy's phone:
Nicolas Sarkozy joins David Cameron and Angela Merkel view that multiculturalism has failed (Daily Mail, 11 February 2011)

Just saying.

 

[nigel1]

I guess you think David Cameron's phone needs to be tapped as well then.
State multiculturalism has failed, says David Cameron (BBC, 5 February 2011)
And Nicolas Sarkozy's phone:
Nicolas Sarkozy joins David Cameron and Angela Merkel view that multiculturalism has failed (Daily Mail, 11 February 2011)

Just saying.

Works for me.