News Vox: A no-beef diet is great-Not Replaced with Chicken

[Lou]

Vox: A no-beef diet is great—but only if you don’t replace it with chicken

I've really become a big fan of Vox. Not that long ago I finished a series of podcasts they did on Factory Farming. I subscribe to a newsletter written by the author of this article

Here are some of the best lines:

Most people have heard it by now: Our meat habit is bad for the world. Polling suggests that tens of millions of people are taking this message seriously: One in four Americans said they tried to cut back on meat in the last year, and half of those cited environmental concerns as a major reason. The popular food site Epicurious recently announced they’ve stopped publishing recipes with beef in them, because of beef’s climate impacts, setting off the latest round of discussion on meat’s effects on the environment.​

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And often, the messaging is that we can save the world by switching out our beef consumption for chicken.​

The problem with this message is that switching beef for chicken basically amounts to trading one moral catastrophe for another.​

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factory-farmed chickens — and that’s 99 percent of all chickens we eat — have an awful life​

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Researchers have studied what’s called the elasticity of supply for meat — that is, how much consumer demand affects production — and determined that when consumers demand fewer hamburgers, fewer cows are raised.​

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And chicken is no panacea for the climate either. “Its impact on the climate only looks benign when compared with beef’s,” Garces points out. “Greenhouse gas emissions per serving of poultry are 11 times higher than those for one serving of beans, so swapping beef with chicken is akin to swapping a Hummer with a Ford F-150, not a Prius.”​

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That’s why some animal advocates in the last few years have switched from convincing consumers to go vegan — which can be too big of a leap for many — to advocating for plant-based meat products.​

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when Americans tell pollsters they’re trying to cut back on beef, it’s cause for optimism​

You can read the whole article here

A no-beef diet is great — but only if you don’t replace it with chicken

Let’s not swap one moral disaster for another.

www.vox.com

One thing that was sort of new to me was that the author used 99% a bunch of times when referring to factory farmed animals. I've often wondered about that. I usually hear 97% bandied about.

 

[Jamie in Chile]

I think the % factory farming is probably higher in the US that some other countries, may be lower internationally. There's little chance it's 99% globally.

Switching out beef for chicken is a win purely in an environmental sense. But why do we care about the environment? Because it supports life, and environmental damage causes human and animal suffering and death.

However switching out beef for chicken actually causes more suffering because chicken are treated worse and for cows 1 animal suffering at least gives food for a ton of people instead of one or two.

It doesn´t make sense unless we are considering our own species only.

 

[Jamie in Chile]

"swapping beef with chicken is akin to swapping a Hummer with a Ford F-150, not a Prius"

Trying to replace one meat with another is missing the point that all meats are bad.

And replacing a Hummer with a (brand new) Prius won´t help us get off fossil fuels either. Given the carbon budgets, even (brand new) hybrids are bad at this point.

Go car free or get an electric car. If you must have an F-150, there is an electric version just launched this week!

And if you must have chicken, there is vegan chicken!

If you need a car and can´t afford an electric car, second hand Prius until you can! Second hand cars are not so bad (just like second hand leather jackets or eating leftover meat is not so bad), since they won´t be on the road for as many years and you avoid the construction footprint of a new car.

 

[David3]

If you need a car and can´t afford an electric car, second hand Prius until you can! Second hand cars are not so bad (just like second hand leather jackets or eating leftover meat is not so bad), since they won´t be on the road for as many years and you avoid the construction footprint of a new car.

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In the United States, a lot of pre-owned electric cars are available for sale, at a much lower price than a new EV.

2013- 2015 Nissan Leaf EVs commonly sell for $8,000 to $10,000 (Check the Vehicle History for American Cars | CARFAX Europe), though the realistic electric range of those model years is only 55 miles or so. You can search for them on Carvana or other used car companies. Nissan Leaf cars can be fast-charged on public charging stations, so the 55 mile range can be workable.

Used EVs produced during/after 2017 generally have larger batteries and longer ranges, but they cost more. Here is a 2017 Chevrolet Bolt EV on sale for $14,590. Electric range should be 200+ miles: https://www.carvana.com/cars/chevro...MIhNLutJnh8AIV0yGtBh0cdQ4zEAQYASABEgL0k_D_BwE

Another option is to buy a used EV with a poorly-performing battery, and have a new re-manufactured battery pack installed. In California (perhaps other states, as well), there are car repair companies that specialize in low(er)-cost EV battery replacement/refurbishment.

Local EV charging stations can be found on the free phone app, "PlugShare".

All EVs can be charged from a standard 120V home electric outlet, though at a much slower rate.

Here is a guide to buying used electric vehicles: Buying A Used EV: It's Crucial To Know What To Look For

 

[Lou]

The article is about not eating chicken.
it mentions a Prius as a metaphor or something.

we have a thread about electric cars, let's keep this conversation on topic.

Hey buddy, how about that new F150?

 

[shyvas]

I often hear people say that they 'don't eat meat only chicken', over here.

 

[Jamie in Chile]

Just curious, do you remember if you hear that from people who are native Spanish, or bilingual speakers, or Americans with hispanic parents?

In the Spanish language, the word for meat (Carne) is often used as the same word for beef, and so what you describe is more common in the Spanish language than the English language. Wondering if that's filtering from Spanish into English via the bilingual environment of the south (I assume your location "somewhere in the south" means you are living in the south US.)

Or if it's just English speaking people doing the same thing.

 

[shyvas]

Just curious, do you remember if you hear that from people who are native Spanish, or bilingual speakers, or Americans with hispanic parents?

In the Spanish language, the word for meat (Carne) is often used as the same word for beef, and so what you describe is more common in the Spanish language than the English language. Wondering if that's filtering from Spanish into English via the bilingual environment of the south (I assume your location "somewhere in the south" means you are living in the south US.)

Or if it's just English speaking people doing the same thing.

They are French and I hear it very frequently.

They also automatically assume that vegetarians eat chicken and fish so I say that ''I don't eat animals'' or ''anything that is alive'' and some people say that it's easier to understand.

My current location is a place in Southern Europe.

 

[shyvas]

I've just read (first time that I've heard of a 'semi-vegetarian'!) this on frenchtoday.com

If you are a flexitarian, you may be interested in my article about “how to say white and dark meat in French“; I was talking to a semi-vegetarian student who said “je ne mange que de la viande blanche” (I only eat white meat). I then answered, guessing something was weird “so, you eat veal”??? “Nooooooo” she answered, horrified. “Only chicken and seafood”

 

[Lou]

The USDA tracks this kind of stuff and they make charts and graphs and you can see that over the last 20 years (or so) beef production does not increase at the same rate as chicken. The accepted reasoning is that people have been replacing beef with chicken.

 

[Lou]

Over here we have so many different kinds of vegetarians. Ova vegetarian don't eat eggs. Lacto-vegetarians don't drink milk. Then destroying the logic of the nomenclature Pescatarians eat fish (and eggs and milk). I have even seen the word pollo-vegetarian for ones that eat chicken.

This whole thing seems illogical to me but I think that its an improvement from just the regular Carnist. and I think some of these are just temporary or transitionary steps.

 

[Lou]

I've just read (first time that I've heard of a 'semi-vegetarian'!) this on frenchtoday.com

If you are a flexitarian, you may be interested in my article about “how to say white and dark meat in French“; I was talking to a semi-vegetarian student who said “je ne mange que de la viande blanche” (I only eat white meat). I then answered, guessing something was weird “so, you eat veal”??? “Nooooooo” she answered, horrified. “Only chicken and seafood”

Isn't pork considered white meat?

 

[shyvas]

Isn't pork considered white meat?

No as in the farm industry, it is considered as red meat due to it's myoglobin content. On the other hand many cooks consider it as white meat due to it's paler colour when cooked.

 

[Deleted member 12226]

I’m really not very knowledgeable about any of this. Putting aside any feelings of killing animals, if we got rid of all factory farms and people only bought pasture raised meat from local farms would there be any environmental problems from this?

 

[David3]

I’m really not very knowledgeable about any of this. Putting aside any feelings of killing animals, if we got rid of all factory farms and people only bought pasture raised meat from local farms would there be any environmental problems from this?

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The Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) of the United Nations has published two exhaustively-detailed reports on livestock and the environment (see links below).

Livestock's long shadow: environmental issues and options

Livestock & the environment: Finding a balance

Please seek psychological help for your food phobias.

 

[Lou]

I’m really not very knowledgeable about any of this.

Well maybe David doesn't, but I like answering your questions.

Putting aside any feelings of killing animals, if we got rid of all factory farms and people only bought pasture raised meat from local farms would there be any environmental problems from this?

I'm not sure you could call them environmental problems - but you would definitely have practical problems and supply sided problems.

Thesis: If all factory farms were eliminated and only free range grass fed cows remained - what percent of the current demand could be fulfilled.

I've tried to solve this with math. Using the ages of the cows (grass fed cows take a longer time to mature), and how much pasture is required for each cow. And how much pasture is available - and I got a number that was a fraction of a percent. But at some point I started to doubt this. I haven't found any published and peer reviewed calculations. but I've heard people say from 1 -3%.

This brings up another question - one that I probably can find the answer: When the open range existed - what was the beef production of the US? I know even then they had feed lots. but I think they were just temporary storage systems for cows awaiting a train car.

Answer:There was about half the number of cows as there are today.

Anyway, with such a large reduction of just numbers of cows any environmental effect would be negligible. Environmentally speaking, animal production can be done with little adverse effects (See Polyface Farm), but the thing is you still won't be getting the production of meat that we demand now.

And if demand is much greater than supply the prices will increase.

Hey. We can throw a par†y the day a Whopper costs more than an Impossible Whopper.

or when Starbucks charges you extra for cow's milk.

 

[Deleted member 12226]

(David, I have sought help, there is no reason to bring up my food phobias if they aren't related to the thread)

I didn't think it would be possible to meet the demand either but I was curious what the world would be like with only small local farms.

 

[Lou]

(David, I have sought help, there is no reason to bring up my food phobias if they aren't related to the thread)

I didn't think it would be possible to meet the demand either but I was curious what the world would be like with only small local farms.

Years ago I read an essay. I can't remember where. but the essay still sticks in my mind.

I think the essay was a rebuttal to the anti-vegan claim that a vegan world could not support the global population and the first part of the essay was the math that proved it could.
Anyway at the end of the math part the author concludes that not only could we feed the world without animal livestock, we would even end up with land left over. A lot of this land is what we classify as non arable land: not suitable for crops but ok for pasture.
So we could still have some farm animals graze there. but this author paints a different picture. Using the land for forests, orchards, housing, water sheds, parks, recreation, etc. I remember in his last word picture he described driving along the coast of Californian, and instead of seeing cows grazing there would be giraffes and zebras.

 

[Lou]

And without livestock production there would be a significant reduction in GHG, water pollution, etc.

 

[Jamie in Chile]

I’m really not very knowledgeable about any of this. Putting aside any feelings of killing animals, if we got rid of all factory farms and people only bought pasture raised meat from local farms would there be any environmental problems from this?

Yes, perhaps the major one is that pasture fed animals require a large amount of land to create a given amount of food compared to plant food. There just isn't enough available land on earth for everyone to eat pasture fed beef in the quantities it's consumed today. Land use is a problem because it puts pressure on the environment and reduces natural biodiversity. Anything that uses a lot of land is indirectly an environmental issue.

You also still have the problems of fertilizer, pesticides and soil erosion although on local farms these can in theory be avoided.

You also have the problem of climate change and that everything uses fossil fuels to some extent so you would still want a local farm to use for example electric vehicles and electricity powered by renewable energy before you could call even a local farm fully environmental.

You also have the fundamental issue of cow belches releasing methane causing global warming. Occasionally you hear claims this can be partially addressed in some way but it seems a tricky issue at best.