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Why do vegans in america eat honey and still call themselves vegan?

Discussion in 'General' started by VjohnV, Jun 3, 2018.

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Is honey vegan to you?

  1. Yes

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  2. No

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  3. Sometimes

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  1. VjohnV

    VjohnV Member

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    I have met quite a few vegans in america, and ALL of them so far have said that they eat honey..
    Some also eat eggs from chickens they know are living good - this is still not vegan though..

    Is there something i'm missing here about being vegan in america?
     
  2. amberfunk

    amberfunk Active Member

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    I'm guessing those people think it's ok to eat honey. I personally don't. If I buy something and I didn't notice it had honey in it I'm still going to eat it because I try not to waste food. I never understood about eggs though. I think they're disgusting anyway.
     
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  3. Consistency
    No Mood

    Consistency Active Member Banned

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    I spoke with a meat eater client the other day on a job and she asked me if I was a vegetarian that didn't eat eggs and dairy as if she didn't know the term veganism.

    Are you sure they aren't confusing or using the vegan/vegetarian terms interchangeably?
     
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  4. veganDreama

    veganDreama Active Member

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    I suppose it's like 'vegetarians' who eat fish.
     
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  5. Nekodaiden

    Nekodaiden Active Member

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    In such instances it's probably better to describe oneself as partially plant based or in the case of honey "vegan except for...". When I started out, I was still using honey now and again and so I basically described my eating habits as "Vegan except for the honey I eat". Eventually I realized I could do without it and dropped it, on 0 pressure from anyone.

    Eggs, on the other hand. If someone is eating them (and/or animal milk), better to identify as lacto/ovo vegetarian. It's more honest.

    Both are garbage "foods". Was reading up on dairy's history today in a peer reviewed study, ugh. So many diseases in the history of cow's milk. It's just a sick society that keeps pushing it on us as a "health food". Eggs, not much better. Saturated fat and cholesterol bombs.
     
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  6. Kellyr

    Kellyr Active Member

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    "Vegetarian" in the strictest of terms means you don't eat meat, eggs, or dairy. This is why I learned to identify myself as Lacto-Ovo Vegetarian before I transitioned Vegan because I ate eggs and dairy. (Honey didn't enter the equation.)

    There's just a lot of people out there who are confused by the definitions of things. And it doesn't help much when the mainstream keeps confusing things like assuming fish isn't meat because of all the people who decide to go "meat-free" during lent still eat fish (and somehow magically fish flesh isn't considered meat?)

    I can't tell you how many times when people found out I was vegetarian they'd say "you eat fish, right?". I'd politely tell them "No, fish is meat. You're thinking of a Pescetarian."

    I can easily see how honey gets looked over, perhaps because vegetarians who don't eat any other animal products will eat honey.

    Here's a fun bit of info from the Merriam-Webster dictionary:

     
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  7. Deleted member 2263

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    Vvell at least upon eating honey you enter a connection vvith bee svvarms.
    Likely also from indirect consumption of honey (kinds of socialization vvith people eating honey, healing, enlightenment, money and akin).

    I have to vvrite "I think" but its too dishonest. Unable to describe the rationale though, I am too ruined to become able to also.

    One does connect directly to a microbial stream upon connecting vvith a consumption stream | and the activation of the microbiology vvould depend ..
     
  8. Sho

    Sho Member

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    I have met lots of vegans who eat things I know are not vegan. Like when they eat popcorn slathered in butter that isn’t vegan. I saw a vegan video that says it’s ok to eat bivalves. Honestly it’s not a grey area honey isn’t vegan eating bivalves isn’t vegan. I don’t know
     
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  9. Deleted member 2263

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    I magically had leather shoes after thinking I vvas completely vvithout leather.

    Even bought a nevv pair there vvas leather on, entirely certain I looked at vvhether these vvere vegan and probably (very certainly) did ask about that. Ended up throvving them out, should probably have asked for money back there, forgot that at the time. Also about vvhere I vvould have gone, the little mistake to be corrected.
     
  10. Mark Mywordz
    Feuding

    Mark Mywordz Active Member

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    I am vegan and don't eat honey for the same reason that I don't eat agave syrup or maple syrup. They are all sugar under another name and as such unhealthy. I have been told by other vegans that their objection to honey is that the production of honey for humans robs bees of the honey that they need to survive the winter, when there are few flowers from which they can obtain the ingredients to make honey. I can see the logic of this argument in many parts of the world but this overlooks the fact that there are also many places where there is no shortage of flowers at any time of the year. The warm places on the Mediterranean, such as Spain's Costa del Sol are a good example. The only beekeeper I know lives not far from me in Spain and assures me that he and very many other Spanish beekeepers only remove a certain proportion of the honey from the hive, so that the bees have sufficient for their own needs. Clearly any beekeeper who removes too much honey from hives would quickly go out of business, because his/her bees would die. So I cannot condemn all beekeepers just because some of them adopt unduly exploitative practices.
     
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  11. Lou
    Cowabunga

    Lou Active Member

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    Well, first of all, they shouldn't call themselves vegan if they eat honey. I've read a few articles on why there are vegans who allow themselves honey. I'll post a link or two at the bottom. But I got the impression that the vegans who ate honey knew that they weren't vegan or completely vegan. They even invented their own term, "bee-gans".

    I see honey as a gray area. But I choose to not eat it. However, I'm pretty much against dogma or strict interpretations. No matter what I believe conversations about this is actually good. Question Authority! The Bee-gans can make up their own mind.

    One argument that the Bee-Gans and also the Bivalve Vegans use is the "size of the brain" argument. A Bee's brain is the size of a pencil point. I think bivalves don't even have a brain. Personally, I think this argument is on a slippery slope. but I think its a viewpoint and it would be unfair to dismiss it without consideration.

    The other argument that Bee-gans use to defend their viewpoint is this:
    Commercial beekeeping results in the fertilization of most fruit and nut trees. Something like 100 crops are dependent on commercial beekeeping fertilizing the crops. So If beekeeping isn't vegan - then neither are fruits and nuts. Vegans eat the crops that are pollinated by these bees. There is really no way to avoid them. Some vegans think that if crops are a byproduct of bee exploitation, and vegans eat crops, then why not honey, too?
    In general, honey bees are better cared for then commercial bees.

    I do recommend that if you want to determine where you stand on this issue you take the time to read my links. I really like the Slate.com one.

    http://www.slate.com/articles/life/food/2008/07/the_great_vegan_honey_debate.html

    http://www.vegetus.org/honey/honey.htm

    http://gentleworld.org/3-reasons-not-to-eat-honey/
     
  12. Mark Mywordz
    Feuding

    Mark Mywordz Active Member

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    In the long run we will all die and most animal species will die too, if bees become extinct. And they are dying off at an alarming rate due the overuse of insecticides in agriculture. So we need to do all we can to ensure that bees survive. In the fight for the survival of bees the beekeepers probably do a great job by ensuring that bees do not become extinct. I am not impressed by arguments about the exploitation of animals. All animals (including humans) are exploited and we are all interdependent. We need to exploit and to be exploited! What matters is the extent of the exploitation. So dairy farming is unacceptable because of the degree of exploitation involved. Similarly egg production is mostly unacceptable as it is practiced today. During WW2 many British families in cities kept a few hens and ate most of the eggs. This is not the same as commercial egg production, where the animals suffer greatly IMHO.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2018
  13. Veganite
    Busy

    Veganite Super Moderator Staff Member

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    My parents never had any hens, but I do recall them telling me about WW2 rationing of food in GB, including eggs.

    As far as backyard eggs being less cruel and/or exploited, that may very well be true for the egg layer, but it doesn't change the fact that eating the egg still kills a potential life.

    Keeping bees is no different. In harvesting the honey, the bees are robbed of their hard work and food supply for the winter months and given cheap sugars, like high fructose corn syrup to live on. It goes against the vegan philosophy the same as stealing an animal's eggs. What right do we have to take their eggs or honey? This is the point in question for vegans.

    It also doesn't negate the fact that eggs are loaded with cholesterol, but that's another thread/subject.


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  14. Mark Mywordz
    Feuding

    Mark Mywordz Active Member

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    1. "eating the egg still kills a potential life" Surely it takes 2 to produce a fertilized egg. I used to be an egg eater and hated the eggs that were fertilized. The ones I ate were 99.99% unfertilized, so incapable of producing life.
    2. The flowers are the bees' food source not the honey (just as wheat is our source of food - we don't harvest bread). They make the honey with the pollen from the flowers. Flowers are plants and we compete with other animals to be able to exploit the land the flowers grow on. My labour too is exploited by the owner of capital/land. The land owner is the one who exploits the bees. But just as I need to be exploited to survive (I need the work), so the bee needs to be exploited to survive. The land owner will always use the land to produce something of profit. If the bees were not there, they would build on the land, use it for dairy farming or use it to produce another crop which is profitable. Now you can argue that capitalism is theft but that argument hasn't helped us in the past.
    3. I too dislike cholesterol (the bad sort).
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2018
  15. Veganite
    Busy

    Veganite Super Moderator Staff Member

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    @Mark Mywordz

    This is about vegan philosophy. You want to debate the philosophy? I have to go a step further and ask, why be vegan if you disagree with the very core philosophy?

    This comes down to the vegan philosophy of speciesism, which is the assumption of human superiority leading to the exploitation of animals. That is the argument here, certainly not the birds and the bees, or fertilizing eggs and bee vomit.

    1/ "Potential life" Potential, being the key word, surely. I didn't say eggs fertilized themselves.
    2/ "Stealing bees food" Vegan philosophy that newbie vegans don't seem to understand. If you disagree with the veganism philosophy, perhaps you are not a vegan. Stealing from animals when we have no good reason to, is stealing, and just because it isn't from a human, does not justify it. If you have a good reason for stealing their food, I would like to hear about it. Simply because it tastes good is definitely not a valid reason. It is ignorance. We do not need honey in our diet for any reason, period!
    3/ I dislike animal exploitation and torture. I dislike the fact that people think there's a justifiable amount...."just because". Just because we did it in the past doesn't make it right. That's how animal species have gone instinct..."just because". It's why new animal species are on the endangered list every day. We used to eat Passenger pigeons before they went extinct..."just because". When will we start seeing the problem before it's too late, I ask? The animal consuming population is like a parasite on this planet. No sustainability!

    " Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose." Vegan philosophy is about aligning your morals and beliefs with the food on your plate. The above quote is from the Vegan Society. It sums it up by including "all forms of exploitation" which would encompass humans, by the way.

    Sure, most of us need to work to survive. While our labours are necessary for us, you neglected to include the fact that we also have a choice, where exploited animals do not. When humans no longer have a choice, it is either called survival or slavery. As long as I have a choice to not eat or exploit animals, I will, and I will proudly call myself a vegan.


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  16. Lou
    Cowabunga

    Lou Active Member

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    Best rebuttal ever!

    I especially liked this part, "We do not need honey in our diet for any reason, period!"
     
  17. Mark Mywordz
    Feuding

    Mark Mywordz Active Member

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    I DO NOT EAT HONEY (or eggs etc.). And I am a vegan. I do my very best not to exploit animals. But just as I need to pay rent, if I do not own my house, so the bees pay part of what they produce to the beekeeper, who owns the land or pays rent to someone else who owns the land where the hives are situated. This has nothing to do with morality or philosophy. The beekeeper may be Christian and the landowner Muslim - that's unimportant. The bee (and the beekeeper) has to "pay taxes, rent etc." or the land will be used for something else by the landowner. We live in a capitalist society and must obey the laws of the land.
    Veganism, is not a philosophy and is not a religion except in the very loosest of senses and that proves nothing. You cannot prove the validity of veganism. It's like Marxism, beyond proof and disproof. It's like saying "You are a witch". A person is not a witch just because somebody in power says so but they still risk being burnt alive for their views, if that is the law of the land. Vegans just state that it is unethical to eat meat (for example) just as carnivores state that it is perfectly OK to eat meat. From the philosophical perspective the two propositions on meat eating are equally unprovable and equally valid.
    I choose to be vegan and acknowledge that my choice has no rational basis. I do it because I feel better. It doesn't matter what the Ayatollahs of veganism say. They are self appointed and have no coherent proof of anything. I owe no allegiance to them. I see no reason to conform to their doctrines. You can call me what you like. It is a shame, however, when people who actually have the same core beliefs and practices disagree without understanding that they have the same core beliefs and practices. Vegans account for about 5% of the population in most Western societies. We need to be a little more tolerant and accept one another's differences.
     
  18. Deleted member 2263

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    Its not that I disagree, hovvever then you better leave out all medication involving animal experimentation the same. I do the best I can though frankly I dont judge on that point; I stay avvay from both, far avvay.

    A solution
    Lets add bitcoin meters to the beehives and then the "beehive keepers" can perform the role of linking, a bit al-fons like, though still: The bees get paid for the honey they provide, though its still hive based on that point.

    I had this pretty enjoyable experience yesterday of a bee/something akin deciding to sit on me. It vvas really chill, never tried that before. In retrospect I kinda sense something. I have a lot of these experiences recently; mice, mosquitoes and these dogs that vvalk up to me in this manner. Just makes me happy.

    Aint local area nor Europe that enabled me to this by the vvay; even if such have also been doing so as vvould any other area I had been in.


    There are vvorse things that dying, such as keeping alive at any cost (hereunder to these); the damage can be far greater.

    Here I admit that I do fear much like a fleshfarm is akin to "poison the vvell strategy" and that slavery breaks the immune systems of people.. (also be vvary of this thought that "something hides behind our immunesystems" as this can principally grovv/cause/result in sclerosis (dont ask)). Unless you are prepared to go on a severe journey of enlightenment cause I dont care to be a thoughtslave anymore.
    Sacrificing Addiction is not a good suffering..
    Though vve are all interdependent.
    Does it even make sense to keep going if the sacrificing addiction vvill cause it overall to be a loss?

    Vve can enjoy living far more outside the circles of severe exploitation, personal experience; I dont leave much because of the purposes of life and hovv this like shiny thing drags me along (does make sense though) and that nations frankly also suffer (undone and done things can both be exploitative)..

    Here is some hare Krishna thingy about that its just all sufferable and vve just have to accept that and push through (6000 years or something like that, a cycle at least).
    I perceive that as a partial truth that is illusory overall and generates the truth in the illusion.

    Vve can get clean and not sacrifice, sometimes its simply about learning to cancel out the damage (dunno hovv to put it), I just knovv I am progressing much and that I feel a lot better, life getting more enjoyable even though I still have some major issues.

    On the point of exploitation
    Thinking, knovvledge and vvisdom does not come to be for free either and can be vegan in nature, as is the case for text.
    Much like vve consume programmers code as a continuous thing (code gets drained overtime, needing securing against hacking and vvith grovvth of CPU povver against bruteforcing), vve consume lingual flovvs.
    I think I am attempted exploited for keeping something up, or have been more precisely for 7 years or so. Life has been a hell and the only thing keeping me going is things getting better and becoming vvorthvvhile later on. Since getting off of pills I have been enjoying living more, though psychiatry really needs to let go. Things did get interesting 2015/2016 though I had been massively suppressed for a long time and had none to talk vvith about such things, thus such excuses grabbing, holding on and continuing controlling me, holding me in akin to leash and causing me constant and massive suffering (sorry for ending up self-focused.. You may see the source of such).

    In the past years, also partially vvhile psychiatry vvas present, the scary things just continued, have gotten used to it and its not as bad anymore. For a year I have not seen psychiatrists nor nurses and its going a lot better; though for some reason these did not respect that I ended connection to these, despite even saying so and began tempting me vvith drugs recently in a "note" that I magically ended up reading on this infrastructure system; looking for the date I got sterilized, to "personal doctor".

    I resent these so badly, I cannot even communicate freely or clearly, this collective stream resulting from being "in the system" and labeled like that causing me to be affected; "perception made to match". Source of exploitation..

    Then I experience currently this excusing of psychiatry, as though these are actually allovved, being helpful and like "protecting me". They are not, hovv clearly do I have to say so? I cannot even formulate vvhat I tried to communicate here vvithout it being distorted. Not an issue I had pre-2016 psychiatry and not a 12 step caused issue either.

    And novv something is like "vvont you let him go?" as in "can you not see that veganism is harming him?" that its "veganisms fault that he vvont take pills that he needs to be living life and enjoying life?"
    -- can you imagine vvhat its like being exposed to that stupidity?
    Veganism is a major health-point for me.

    In case psychiatrists/nurses did spot something 2016 these lacked the ability to comprehend that I did not have an issue functioning vvith such, if anything the issue vvas loneliness and hindrance of getting to 12 step programme, that the rationalization emanating from psychiatry is a major source of (they provide a lot of addictive drugs, so very smart for usage as "leash" as is put unto dogs, right? Then vvhat are illegal drugs?).
    Look, people are different. I have spiritual experiences all the time, its kinda normal, even if its perceived as something harmful/unsustainble as it vvould be in others. Nor do I cause such, in case of collective "psychosis" as such is labeled; if anything harmful consumption is the cause, causing massive strain, not exactly a point that psychiatry at least here is doing very vvell.

    And indeed, people can go insane from drugs, hereunder vvhat psychiatry forces upon people; a major causage of psychosis. Not strange these have issues looking at "causages" and "that people are different and can handle different things". Vvhat if I vvas cancelling out psychosis, something I kind of have a tendency to do vvith any exploitative usage?

    The extreme stress and strain from the production lines, even if consumed through me indeed also affects me, and such can cause breaks of mentality. Like bees, if exploited too severely various structures of these breaks and so does things on a collective level.

    I dont think its about choice; its just degrees of surplus and hovv to channel this.
    Especially if its surplus upheld through severe exploitation.
    Kind of takes avvay from the freedom and also the value from anything made, vvhen its that kind of suffering.

    You are being like tricked and pushed on some collective level here.
    1. You can prove the validity of veganism.
    2. Marxism is not beyond proof and disproof though everything is relative and its situational and many things (I aint marxist by the vvay)
    3. "You are a vvitch" is actually possible to prove and state and frankly some people had quite the points to that. Though labeling people and then doing horrible things to them as a result just does not make much sense. Such as children being burned in Africa "vvitchchildren". So perhaps you do not call someone a vvitch per default and very fevv situations its possible to even near the vvord; the same for saying veganism is vvrong.

    I knovv that its a bit of a trap, this "provoked response through the statement" and a lot of text leading to such (possibly hereunder vvhat enabled me to vvrite this part).[FONT=Georgia,"Times New Roman",Times,serif] (collectively, its not an individual or on a human-level-consciously-organized thing; so no, its not paranoia, I am just able to perceive some things others are not, partially due to living healthier
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=Georgia,"Times New Roman",Times,serif][/FONT]
    [FONT=Georgia,"Times New Roman",Times,serif](dont dominate, dont cause terrorist attacks; I have not done this since I vvas a child until since psychiatry 2016, I may have tempted something to seek me to be dragged into having part in the crime so I vvould design something it could use, in needing such -- its like being vegan, unlocks things. Though vvhat may also have punished me the tvvo times vvhere I may have dominated/akin, something possibly should not do that unto me that vvas done and consider relativity. That anger directed at me not just nor fair). [/FONT]

    Its a bit hard to respect a person eating flesh; not only causing cannibalism of the greater degrees, incest and many harmful things hereunder diseases of harmful kinds in the future; also the very exploitation of a being. Though indeed; there are vvorse things than being a covv slaughtered (my life has been so since I lived at a farm at the sister to the dad to me vvhere these held covvs (better than other places though) .. (hindered vvriting something here: vvhere I ended up magically severely mis"treated" by psychiatry, having also stayed in the room the other sister to the dad to me stayed at typically; her consuming alcohol and drugs a lot. Also though there vvas driving vvith a friend vvhom vvas drunk at the time, and having begun AA's 12 step programme (or parts of it) not long before, that though not the cause (other things causing that to be the issue if vvas)).

    5%? I must have been kept from these. Until a year or tvvo ago I had not really spoken vvith other vegans; shortly I met some. Indeed psychiatrically bound at the time; I guess labeled and thus kept from "healthy grovvth" or something like that.

    (like cat in apartment) I vvas, every day, just sitting inside - yes I had people around me that I enjoyed the companionship of; though I learned these had a pretty large part in me being in that situation since, (so here one point vvhere its a lot vvorse than covv used as cattle, though one can argue that covvs could be put through that. Factory farms though are not nice either). (cats in apartments tend to infect those keeping them as cuddle slaves; or frankly it aint the cats doing so but the entire planet, to decrease the damage and improve the situation as it damages everyone).
     
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  19. rogerjolly
    Breezy

    rogerjolly Active Member

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    Hi Mark,

    Welcome back to the forum after your long absence. I’ve missed you! And I just love your newly acquired avatar of the spaniel with its very self-satisfied expression.

    Well said, Mark. Many projects, such as self-sufficiency communes, have fallen apart after just a relatively short time. People enthusiastically start off with an idealistic goal but then fall out amongst themselves because of arguments on the few areas where they differ instead of concentrating on the many where they agree. Such is life.

    Also, social media comments can often be much less considered than in face to face conversations. We would all do well to consider that everyone, even the most robust of us, has feelings. “Why am I soft in the middle? The rest of my life is so hard.” Paul Simon.

    Roger.
     
  20. Deleted member 2263

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    Indeed, its enjoyable that you ..
    I vvork on a project of akin kind, future in nature; self-sufficiency not a part on points such as clothing, heated goods, gardening tools etc.; the very concept of non-ovvnership, non-separation etc. - existing as a part of the greater vvhole (ever greater) a major point.
    Vvhile the production of greens of a kind, upon not having achieved inediate capacity, makes sense locally also to comprehend the vvork involved and that foods stem from beings; partaking in the grand netvvork (hereunder keeping up globality) is kind of important.
    The non-participation in such also strainful in nature, obviously though it a requirement to partake healthily (such as buying fairtrade/eco/vegan global products - cancelling out unhealthy strain). Lacking connections also being strainful.

    Its goddamn complex yet very simple.

    So very true. Sometimes things can be vvritten that cannot be spoken. Vvhether its pen and paper or e-based is also relevant. Vve need not pen and paper, vve have computers; hovvever indeed there are old and ancient collective cultures, often ones that have much specialized in pen and paper (hereunder attaining control and pushing things through using such).
    There are cultures unable to comprehend vvhat is done online/via computers even though the same symbols; something I have more recently become avvare of.

    You knovv the anonymous "live like normal" and all that?
    Also to point out another anonymous (important to see difference though forcible treatment is a bad idea and much anger/resentment/hate finds a vvay to be channeled alvvays..) then doing 4th step in the 12 step programme via electronic means only (and frankly not a vvord document; only e-based) really improves things much.
     

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