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Why is meat the answer to everything?

Discussion in 'General' started by Veggie-based Heathen, Jan 19, 2018.

  1. Veggie-based Heathen
    Wishful

    Veggie-based Heathen Member

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    If there's one thing that baffles me (well, there's dozens of things that baffle me), it's that many non-veg*ns seem to think that meat is the answer to everything. No one knows or cares a lick about nutrition until they find out someone is veg*n, and then suddenly they're the most knowledgeable person in the world. I don't get why people criticize non-meat-eaters for potential nutritional deficiencies as though all nutrition (or perhaps the only nutrition of value) comes from animal products. What is so scary to them about living without consuming animal products?
     
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  2. Forest Nymph
    Mummified

    Forest Nymph Active Member

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    I don't have a degree in psychiatry (in fact my background is in environmental science, specifically communicating ideas about such to other people scientifically or artistically, and my minor is literature which is pure art) ....but I have had a pedestrian interest in sociology and psych since my teens. I didn't pursue that route because I am so NOT good with "counseling" other people - I'm not an especially forgiving or tactful type of person. Heh. HOWEVER, the "ideas" behind it all interest me, the abstract of people, the wheres and the whys (which also gives me a pedestrian interest in history - a place where I am also a visitor not a rock star, I was showed up just today in a class where one of my classmates actually remembered the capitalist the former nation of Rhodesia was named after) BUT and SO FORTH and THEN FORE...COUGH COUGH...

    All that being said, in 19th century Europe, meat was a symbol of wealth and luxury. The working class were semi-vegetarian, having meat maybe once a week, their primary animal products being cheese or eggs, eating lots of lentils or pea soups, bread, biscuits, yogurts, etc...not bad food actually (which is often why royalty had weird diseases like gout or intestinal blockages at 45 while the hearty peasant class lived to be 90 slinging hay) ...and it gradually progressed upwards until the highest classes gorged on multiple animals at meal times (I guess this was the birth of "surf and turf" or "steak and eggs"). So this had a sociological effect on class consciousness in Western societies, where obtaining meat meals was perceived as a sign of "class." (This doesn't exist as much in Asia or it didn't traditionally).

    THEN, in the 1950s, the United States began aggressive advertising campaigns, partly based upon the science and technology they had obtained by invading the Nazi camps in Germany during WWII. The U.S. is notorious for picking up their ideas about factory farming and subliminal advertising, as well as animal testing and utterly inhuman practices in general in the name of "progress"...I guess the U.S. gov thought they could separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak, and take what was "good" from the Nazis without committing genocide. But there was very little that was "good" about the Nazi mindset...and this slowly became apparent in American society as regimented, nationalistic government promotion of "wholesome" meat and dairy, restaurants and stores became perverted into exploitative corporate capitalism in quite short order. In Radical Vegetarianism by Mark Matthew Braunstein, he published accounts, EXACT WORDING of propaganda blurbs from a government publication entitled "That we may eat" from 1950s United States, in which meat eating was explicitly painted as "American," "healthy," "national," "what everyone is doing now" and one of the first representations where farmed animals were described in factory farm terms as "things" rather than living beings. He published this work in 1980 after being vegan since 1970 and apparently must have remembered these ads or manuals from his childhood, and sought them out at libraries and ordered them by mail (no Internet then).

    So this IDEA that meat is somehow the makings of a person, a "good" person or a "classy" person, or an "American patriot" person is long ingrained in cultural ideas that are mostly white and capitalist. I hate to be cliche but it's true. That people of color follow along with it in the 21st century is only testament to how pervasive this Doctrine of Discovery sovereignty has become in the world over the past several hundred years.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2018
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  3. rogerjolly
    Breezy

    rogerjolly Active Member

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    To put Forest Nymph’s excellent response into a nutshell, “It is because the western world has been thoroughly indoctrinated.”

    Furthermore, as in all the most successful indoctrinations the victims have no idea that they have been hoodwinked.

    Example: I know of someone who died relatively young of a heart attack. His widow said she really couldn’t understand it because throughout his life he always had the very best. The very best steak and the very best wine.

    Roger
     
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  4. Evelyn Smith

    Evelyn Smith Member

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    Hi, there are many people who don't eat their meal without meat which is not good for their health and for humanity.
     
  5. Veganite
    Alienated

    Veganite Super Moderator Staff Member

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    I have to agree. I ran into someone yesterday that claimed their doctor said to never go vegetarian or vegan because of iron-deficiency anemia. She was told to always eat meat because she was at risk. She has had a lot of health issues related to iron-deficiency anemia, and her doctor says plant iron would not be adequate. I really have to question this, but I'm not an expert on the subject, and am not qualified to give anyone in this situation advice. Still, it does seem odd to me that someone required meat to be healthy.
     
  6. donsabi

    donsabi Member

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    Growing up in a very poor family we seldom had meat on the table. We ate so much eggplant that I thought it was a meat until I was an early teen. As an adult I always believed that a meal had to have meat and potatoes or it wasn't a meal. I suppose it was a status thing rather than a symbol of health.

    My experience with vegetarians was very limited. I did have a young girl who work for me who was vegetarian. She was very frail and missed a lot of time at work. She ended up on permanent disability. One of her co-workers/friend told me that she became severely ill when the only thing she would eat was carrots.
    On the positive, in my late years I became a friend to a man who had a severe heart attack and recovered nicely after going vegan.

    Today we live in a world surrounded by those interested only in personal gain. They will attempt to sell their product by any means. Our medical system is manned by doctors who are owned by big pharma and have no knowledge of nutrition. Our society is dictated by bean counters who place profit above good health and life.

    Big pharma cannot make money from the healthy or the dead. Keeping us sick is the key to their success.
     
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  7. mikek
    Surfing

    mikek Member

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    ^ great reply.
     
  8. Nekodaiden

    Nekodaiden Active Member

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    To be fair, there are possible nutritional deficiencies in a vegan diet that is high in processed and "refined" foods and low in whole foods, or lacking in a balanced variety of them. From an animal consumer's viewpoint, this is a valid argument to them, especially if a large percentage of the plant based foods they do eat are low or relatively low in nutrients do to being highly processed. Sodas, energy drinks, White bread/flour and the products made from them together with chemical sweeteners/flavor enhancers, protein isolates etc all come to mind as a good example. When a person's mineral/vitamin/amino acid and fatty acid content comes largely or partly from animals, and refined grains mostly seen as energy(and just that), one can understand their concern.

    This is the argument I frequently encounter, and it is mostly for these reasons, as well as a few others, namely:

    Habit
    Their present gut bacteria (regular and semi regular animal product consumers have bacteria in their guts that make them crave those products. Vegans who have been vegan for a while do not)
    Marketing
    Culture
    Unwillingness to change for whatever reason
     
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  9. Consistency
    No Mood

    Consistency Active Member Banned

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    It is the answer for those who enjoy their domestication. Watching TV and what not.
     
  10. Emma JC
    Joyful

    Emma JC Active Member

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    I agree with you completely Neko - there are many unhealthy vegans.

    The processed vegan food can mimic meat in that it can be low in fibre and that is one of the basis for so much dis-ease. As we know meat and dairy and eggs etc are also low in fibre and that is likely the 'fact' that most meat eaters do not know or understand the ramifications of. I certainly didn't realize that meat didn't have fibre, by its nature it seem fibrous.

    Oil also is much consumed by many vegans and it has had its fibre and nutrition stripped from it by its processing. As a starchivore we limit our consumption of "oil" (not fat) to less than a tablespoon a week. Fat in nuts, nut butter, avocado's, olives etc is fair game and we try to keep it to 15% ~ of our intake.

    Awesome post Forest Nympth, you summed up the assocation with "wealth" very well.

    Emma JC
     
  11. Veggie-based Heathen
    Wishful

    Veggie-based Heathen Member

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    The problem nowadays (at least in the U.S.) is that doctors are no longer required to have any nutritional training. The average doctor knows as much about preventative nutrition as does the average car mechanic these days. I read recently that there are less than 40 doctorate programs in the entire country that even offer any type of nutrition course for medical students anymore, and none of them actually require it, it's all elective--and the article was dated a few years ago already.

    Another example: my dad has colon cancer. The first doctor said it was probably caused by his lifestyle of eating lots of processed food and red meat. Second doctor actually said food doesn't affect our bodies, and that what he ate didn't make a difference, that the cancer was caused by stress. My dad, being a passionate carnivore, decided the second doctor was correct and the first was wrong. He continued eating meat, his cancer continued to worsen. Then one day, after months and months of agony, he told me he was going to stop eating red meat because he noticed he had more issues and felt worse on the days he ate red meat. Even though he didn't stop eating red meat, he reduced his intake more than I would've expected, and lo-and-behold he hasn't had nearly the amount of pain or agony as he was (the cancer is terminal, so it will never go away completely).
     
  12. Veganite
    Alienated

    Veganite Super Moderator Staff Member

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    @Veggie-based Heathen

    I'm very sorry to hear about your dad's cancer. I recall one or two people in the documentary "Eating You Alive" that were given a terminal cancer diagnosis that beat their cancer with a whole foods plant-based diet, free from salt, oils, and sugar. One guy had end-stage pancreatic cancer. At the time of the documentary, he had survived a year already on a WFPBD, where the doctor had only given him 3-4 months to live.

    While I don't think a WFPBD is the cure to all cancer, or the end-all be-all to everything, I do still think it is worth a try. Perhaps you could coax your dad into watching the documentary. I am not saying to give up traditional treatment, as I am not a doctor, and hardly qualified to make those sorts of assumptions, but I do believe there's something to it. It's worth watching, that's for sure.

    Of course, someone has to be willing to try it. I have a sibling with cancer. It was in one ear and out the other. A lot of people consider it ridiculous, but you have nothing to lose by trying.


    *
     
  13. ski

    ski Member

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    meat is a answer but not the best answer some people cant see past the concept of not eating meat due to the what they have been told what to eat by people that do not have their best interests at heart its the sad truth of the world
     
  14. Veggie-based Heathen
    Wishful

    Veggie-based Heathen Member

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    Thank you. I cook for him when I can, and never tell him it's vegan food--he doesn't notice if I don't point it out that there's no meat, haha. I doubt he'd ever give up meat entirely, but I do see that he's more willing to try new things as the cancer progresses. I'd love to see him on a WFPBD, but that would be such a huge change for him I don't expect it to happen, but any movement in the right direction is better than none. I've been making veggie dishes that have increased his interest in eating them (I moved back in with my parents when he was diagnosed so I could help take care of him). I grew up hating veggies, and realized as an adult that it was because we always ate canned, over-salted, boiled-until-they're-wilted-and-soggy-mush veggies. When I discovered using fresh veggies and roasting, sauteeing, baking, and all sorts of other ways of cooking veggies, I fell in love. I'm starting to bring those things to the table for my parents now (literally, haha).
     
  15. kelli
    Inpain

    kelli Member

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    most people r selfish.
     
  16. Frederic Lavender

    Frederic Lavender Member

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    I think it's because it's an easy choice and they do not know any different! People are against change and is a long slow process to change the mindset of people.
     

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