Animal Lives Matter

[Jamie in Chile]

All this being said, I do think the problem with linking black lives matter to animal rights is mostly that it's not strategic - i.e. it won't work and will upset people. Not so much that it's wrong.

I saw a cartoon on facebook today and it showed a vegan talking to a meat eater and saying "I'm vegan, but I don't like to push my point of view on other people." It then showed a second cartoon of someone talking to a KKK member and saying "I'm not racist, but I don't like to push this point of view on other people."

Now this cartoon - albeit only shared in a veg group - is perhaps unnecessary, inflamatory, insensitive, badly timed etc.

But it's not wrong.

Some people are increasingly saying that it's not enough to be not racist yourself. Being silent on the black lives matter movement is now questionable - that we should feel obliged to support this cause and take certain actions.

I'm not sure if that is true or not. (One problem with this argument is that if we are required to actively support black lives matter, are we also obliged to actively support a bunch of other causes, or are they saying this one is special enough and more important than the others?)

But, IF it is true that silence on black lives matter = complicity = questionable, then logically I think the same probably is true about silent veganism. The idea that when people say "why don't you eat meat" you just say "personal choice" or some BS to avoid yet another awkward conversation when you just want to eat in peace and not deal with the same sh1tty arguments for the millionth time. That idea (or at least the right to have that attitude) is popular among vegans. (And, sometimes, I also avoid the debate, if I'm honest.)

Today is not the day to stand up for the animals. Neither will be tomorrow, or next week, or any time soon.

But in the coming months and years, the more we stand up for the animals and honestly state our beliefs the closer we can inch towards the point when a movement like the current one could take place for animals.

In the same way that we have reached a point when some people in the UK were able to throw a statue of a slave trader in a river without fear of being prosecuted (something that was literally not the case even 2 weeks ago) perhaps the day will come when we will be able to free animals from factory farms without fear of being prosecuted because the public will be on our side.

What has arguably happened with the black lives matter movement is that maybe 30% of the public probably agreed with it before this last two weeks, and 70% were either against it or hadn't given it much thought. Suddenly in a week we are up to maybe >50% supporting and democrats are taking a knee in a big group. That was not on the cards whatsoever even two weeks ago. It's a shift, where in two weeks the movement has made the amount of progress that might normally have taken more than two years.

Time will tell whether this last week or two ultimately represents a huge breakthrough for black people in the US, or whether it fizzles out and ten years from now we will still be talking about the same sh*t happening all the time.

Either way, vegans and animal rights activists can learn from this success.

When perhaps 30% of the public are themselves vegetarians or at least agree with us thousands or millions of us might surround factory farms, too many of us for the police to move us, and perhaps in doing so, we change the public mood. Suddenly a point is reached where at least 1-2 policeman go on record that they are not willing to arrest us, quit and walk off on camera. Or maybe the police just arrest everyone and put us in jail, but there are thousands of us with no prior criminal record going to jail (for a short while), all of us standing up in court and eloquently arguing for animal rights. The judges are sending us to jail but thinking we are probably right. A huge public discussion goes on and over a week or two of sustained factory farm blockades (or peaceful protests, who knows) the public mood shifts. Corporations all start to pretend they cared about animal rights all along. Famous people line up to support the movement. 50% of people now agree with us. Left wing politicians become supportive of the blockades.

A moment is reached in history just like the last several days have been where things perceptibly changes.

Then what happens?

Maybe we surround factory farms and start breaking in and freeing animals. Maybe by this point the economic costs of dealing with the protestors, combined with the falling cost of vegan burgers, start to make factory farming no longer profitable. Maybe a law is passed that factory farming is to be phased out within so many years and enough protestors accept that.

But...I think keep this discussion to vegan forums for now. I am not going to make this kind of argument anywhere else for now.

 

[Lou]

⬆ Good stuff

Just watched Last Week Tonight. Great episode great perspective.

One thing I learned from the show is about a guy named Kenneth Clark

The riots of the past week are depressingly familiar. “I read that report,” the world-renowned psychologist Dr. Kenneth Clark noted in 1967 about President Lyndon Johnson’s Kerner Commission Report on Civil Disorders. “The report of the 1919 riot in Chicago,” Clark continued, “and it is as if I were reading the report of the investigating committee on the Harlem riot of 1935, the report of the investigating committee on the Harlem riot of 1943, the report of the McCone Commission on the (1965) Watts riot. I must again in candor say to you members of this commission — it is a kind of Alice in Wonderland — with the same moving picture shown over again, the same analysis, the same recommendations, and the same inaction.”​

​

Social reform movements often stall. We have talked about his before here in the VF. Whether it is the end of slavery, Women's Suffrage, or Civil Rights it usually takes many years before progress is made. It is hard to say if this 2 week period will result in real permanent change.

I've actually lived through a few of these, most memorably the Rodney King Riots. This one feels different. Time will tell. *

As far as vegan activism goes, I think I need to take a time out and look into it some more. I can't remember who said it, that advocating veganism was the best thing a vegan can do. But you have to be effective. Perhaps we can have a thread that is just about effective advocacy.



* Racial Violence in the United States Since 1660 •

 

[Hog]

@ Jamie - I wish I said what you just said.

 

[Hog]

I am skeptical of everything. I generally do not trust the news.

So I thought, "Did Floyd really suffer that much?" So I tried an experiment with my 91 pound son. I had him put the full force of his knee on the side of my neck with all of his body wieght.

This is what I learned.
01. Pain sets in almost immediately.
02. I had difficulty breathing within 15 seconds.
03. I was terrified after 30 seconds.
04. After 60 seconds I had him get off of me because the pain and fear was too intense.
=====
Please do not try this simulation at home. It is too risky.

 

[Lou]

"As we get into the swing of June, millions of people across the country are using their voice to stand against oppression and rally for justice and equity. As vegans, we’re no strangers to these values—we choose to live ethically and strive to change the world around us for the betterment of animal lives, the planet, and humanity.

While we’re known for speaking out against the violence against billions animals each day, this isn’t where veganism ends. Amid the global calls for justice sparked by the killing of George Floyd—and Ahmaud Arbery, Breonna Taylor, Atiatana Jefferson, and countless others—we’re taking action to build a kinder world for Black communities. We’ve made our company stance official by publicly denouncing racism now and forever. Soon after, our favorite plant-based restaurants stood up and donated food and funds in support of Black Lives. Vegans like Billie Eilish and our own Marla Rose offered insight into why “All Lives Matter”—a historically positive and vegan message—is counterproductive and harmful in our fight for Black lives."

- VegNews Magazine

Attention White Animal-Rights Activists: “Black Lives Matter” is Not Ours For the Taking

Redirecting the phrase to encompass “all lives,” including animals, is unethical and unsupportive of the racial justice movement. We should be giving “Black Lives Matter” the space to spread its meaningful message.

vegnews.com

 

[Sax]

I started reading Singer's Animal Liberation today and he compares speciesism to racism multiple times in the prefaces and first chapter. I think it'd be difficult to argue he's wrong or made a strategic error in doing so.

I've always thought it was a valid comparison but one best avoided. I guess it's easier to avoid the pitfalls if you're carefully crafting an argument with no one to interrupt and claim the moral high ground before you've finished making your point.

But yeah, the phrase "animal lives matter" should probably be permanently retired.

Another "hot button" analogy is rape. What makes rape and animal exploitation wrong is ultimately the exact same thing - violating the bodily autonomy of another being for pleasure. I feel like that's a little bit less of a rhetorical minefield but as a white man I guess I shouldn't be too sure of that. Thoughts?

 

[PTree15]

I started reading Singer's Animal Liberation today and he compares speciesism to racism multiple times in the prefaces and first chapter. I think it'd be difficult to argue he's wrong or made a strategic error in doing so.

I've always thought it was a valid comparison but one best avoided. I guess it's easier to avoid the pitfalls if you're carefully crafting an argument with no one to interrupt and claim the moral high ground before you've finished making your point.

But yeah, the phrase "animal lives matter" should probably be permanently retired.

Another "hot button" analogy is rape. What makes rape and animal exploitation wrong is ultimately the exact same thing - violating the bodily autonomy of another being for pleasure. I feel like that's a little bit less of a rhetorical minefield but as a white man I guess I shouldn't be too sure of that. Thoughts?

i think one problem is that most of society doesn't see animals consumed for food as equal to humans. Heck, they don't even think they are on the same level as their pet dog or cat. I can see why people wouldn't really understand where veg*ns are coming with that phrase given the times right now, because how dare we compare a person to an animal? I think that would be the mindset, so while the sentiment isn't wrong per se, I think it would just inflame things more.

 

[Urban Gardener]

i think one problem is that most of society doesn't see animals consumed for food as equal to humans. Heck, they don't even think they are on the same level as their pet dog or cat. I can see why people wouldn't really understand where veg*ns are coming with that phrase given the times right now, because how dare we compare a person to an animal? I think that would be the mindset, so while the sentiment isn't wrong per se, I think it would just inflame things more.

I've always had a different perspective. When I was a kid, I watched nature shows on TV. In the summer, we fished and immediately ate the fish. Sometimes, my dad would bring home a whole chicken and we gutted it. I saw the animals as equal to humans and I saw consumption of meat as part of the natural lifecycle. All living things consume other living things; everything dies and gets eaten (unless you're embalmed, which I saw as a violation of that natural order).

My perspective changed when I saw how unnatural our patterns of meat consumption are, as humans. We waste a lot. We torture the animals and deprive them of normal lives. We eat far more meat than we need to. We eat more than our planet can support, considering our population size. We are nothing like bears catching salmon. We're committing acts of torture and murder.

I became aware of that when I was 11 - 13, that time period. I took a few years to question and fact-check everything. Then I read up on vegetarianism and never looked back.

I regularly meet people who think the way I did when I was a kid and haven't learned about the modern state of human meat consumption. People who believe humans and animals are equal and that by eating meat, we're just behaving like omnivores of other species.

I've also met veggers who think humans are superior and have a responsibility to care for the animals, though that seems to be more of a sentiment from previous centuries.

The issue with the rape analogy is the same as the issue with the racism analogy. There is an unfortunate history of women being compared to animals with the intention being malicious, and of rape being excused on this basis. While the theme of harming versus respecting other living beings is obvious, we also need to avoid unintentionally coming across as supportive of the pro-rape, pro-human-inequality crowd, which is more substantial than one might imagine, since many are a bit secretive about holding those views. In other words, the messaging needs to be clear. We can draw obvious connections while also leaving out room for misinterpretation.

***I know there is an on-going debate about whether animal products are part of a natural human diet and if so, to what extent. Since that debate continues, I'll just acknowledge it and leave it at that.

 

[Jamie in Chile]

I think there are certain very touchy subjects that are generally best avoided as comparisons in most situations and those include racism, rape, and the holocaust analogy. There's nothing logically wrong with the arguments, but it may do more harm than good in most cases because you just **** people off. You have to look at it from their (speciest meat eater) point of view. It's all too easy for them to say "are you saying us meat eaters are like rapists" and then you've lost control of the situation.

 

[Jamie in Chile]

I started reading Singer's Animal Liberation today and he compares speciesism to racism multiple times in the prefaces and first chapter.

One of the early chapters, either two or three, is a long winded and depressing and upsetting coverage of animal experimentation in scientific experiments. Be prepared to read this chapter. Or, if you are interested in the speciesism and philosophy arguments related to meat eating, you could even skip it.

 

[Sax]

One of the early chapters, either two or three, is a long winded and depressing and upsetting coverage of animal experimentation in scientific experiments. Be prepared to read this chapter. Or, if you are interested in the speciesism and philosophy arguments related to meat eating, you could even skip it.

Yeah that was chapter 2. The maternal deprivation and monster-mother experiments on baby monkeys were just sickening, I expect that will stick with me for a long time.

 

[FredVegrox]

I know to not make analogies of abuse to animals in the industries to serious issues to human people, now. Speaking of the real issue of animal abuse, which is connected to using animals in the animal agriculture industry, should have sensible response, and I currently bring that up in discussion with those who remain omnivorous, along with mentioning the healthiest way to eat, which I do try sticking with, does not have any dependence on animal products, animal products are not better for health. Those things should matter most for other people, while I don't speak for placing the same value on animals lives, which still I see should be seen having value, in themselves. It should also matter, if I get to it, that animal agriculture takes much more land, water, and resources, and is ruinous to the environment, though when I get to its contribution to climate change, I too often get discussion then with the denial of anthropogenic climate change. That takes it away from discussion of not using products from animals then.

 

[JacobEdward]

As a vegan, I can "connect the dots" between animal lives matter and Black Lives Matter. I found myself wondering if PETA was going to start an Animal Lives Matter campaign. I wouldn't put it past them but I think it would be inadvisable. Those of you who are old enough or have been vegan long enough might recall the controversy when a holocaust survivor, called the slaughter of animals a Holocaust. (1) And he was just repeating the same things Issac Isaac Bashevis Singer expressed when he said, “For the animals, [life] is an eternal Treblinka.”

And PETA caught so much **** for their "Holocaust on Your Plate" exhibition. I'm not sure they are ready to go wade into those waters again. (2).

I feel like we as activists should believe it is possible to explain the holocaust thing... if we cant explain that then what hope is there

Holocaust

Its the other way around, the holocaust was like animal agriculture, not that animal agriculture is like the holocaust

www.veganforum.org

 

[FredVegrox]

I feel like we as activists should believe it is possible to explain the holocaust thing... if we cant explain that then what hope is there

Holocaust

Its the other way around, the holocaust was like animal agriculture, not that animal agriculture is like the holocaust

www.veganforum.org

The Holocaust had the issue of the captive being treated like animals. But it should be said, like animals are. Should animals be treated like animals are? It was severe abuse to humans that humans should not go through. Why then should animals go through that? We should have that question brought to people, while many may not be aware of the treatment to captive animals whose products they keep using.