Are humans designed to be herbivores?

[silva]

As long as we supplement, I agree.

Supplement what? B12, like the meat eaters do? D3, like most everyone needs based on location?
So sick of the tired old "well planned plant based diet" as if simply the addition of animal food magically made any diet just fine . Facts are that people are simply USED to the nutrition that eating animal things gives, as well as the negative impact. Know what "normal" means here? It means accustomed to, and people are accustomed to eating animal products. Everyone advocates when you go vegan to chart your nutrition (which I'm all for BTW), yet how many people track there animal diet to compare? How many understand the difference in the nutrition bioavailibility of plants vs meats, and the difference in needs?

What the heck is designed supposed to mean here anyway?

 

[g0rph]

Supplement what? B12, like the meat eaters do? D3, like most everyone needs based on location?
So sick of the tired old "well planned plant based diet" as if simply the addition of animal food magically made any diet just fine . Facts are that people are simply USED to the nutrition that eating animal things gives, as well as the negative impact. Know what "normal" means here? It means accustomed to, and people are accustomed to eating animal products. Everyone advocates when you go vegan to chart your nutrition (which I'm all for BTW), yet how many people track there animal diet to compare? How many understand the difference in the nutrition bioavailibility of plants vs meats, and the difference in needs?

What the heck is designed supposed to mean here anyway?

Silva, I know full well that meat eaters supplement via added cobalt and B12 etc in for example, cow feed.
I mention it all the time on that other, more hostile place when it's brought up.

One thing I don't like with any argument is dishonesty though. We should tell it like it is.
We have been eating a mix of plants and animal products for 100s of thousands of years. If we swap to plant only then we definitely need to put a little extra thought into it to make sure we get all the nutrients we need to be healthy.
(One reason the Mediterranean diet was brought up. B12 is added to cow feed and is in fish. D3 is in eggs, meat, cheese etc - People on that diet simply do not need to think about it AND it is shown to be very healthy)
We do need to think about it a bit more, especially at the start.

The word "designed" in the OP is unfortunate and obviously completely out of place and misleading considering the fact that we evolved to be what we are today.

 

[fakei]

People on that diet simply do not need to think about it AND it is shown to be very healthy)

This is not true, please show the studies.

Modern Mediterranean diet is better than fast food diet or the bacon, eggs, milk and butter diet that was thought to be the best diet after WWII, (yes, during those days olive oil and sardines were unhealthy foods), because it contains less saturated and transfat and overall less animal fat, and more anti oxidants, you have red wine versus beer or Coke Cola, with the first being high in anti oxidants and able to lower sugar levels, it is also more based fresh food and contains more fiber. However people are not very healthy.

Morbid obesity may be less frequent than it was in the US but there is still obesity and people have excessive weight, and many suffer from diabetes, high cholesterol, etc.


So, Mediterranean diet is better, plant based is far better.

 

[g0rph]

This is not true, please show the studies.

Nonsense.

The Mediterranean Diet and Nutritional Adequacy: A Review - PMC

The Mediterranean dietary pattern, through a healthy profile of fat intake, low proportion of carbohydrate, low glycemic index, high content of dietary fiber, antioxidant compounds, and anti-inflammatory effects, reduces the risk of certain ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

A plant based diet with no thought about supplements would be far more risky.

 

[fakei]

.
We have been eating a mix of plants and animal products for 100s of thousands of years. If we swap to plant only then we definitely need to put a little extra thought into it to make sure we get all the nutrients we need to be healthy.

The issue seems to me is other. Contrary to the traditional diet centered on plants in particular whole grains,where most important nutrients can be found, modern diet became centered on animal products, refined grains became the standard, that is deprived of micronutrients, and also refined sugar consumed in high amounts along with high intake of alcohol, all of which deplete the body of micronutrients and vitamins. Obviously in this context people need extra doses of micronutrients and animal products become the main source of them in this diet.

If one however switches to the traditional diet of whole grains, legumes and vegetables, micronutrients needs become covered by plants and you no longer have the depleting factors of the standard diet. It may take some time for the body to get accustomed, but supplements are not the solution, since a person can easily exceed its need with results that are not good.

 

[fakei]

Nonsense.

The Mediterranean Diet and Nutritional Adequacy: A Review - PMC

The Mediterranean dietary pattern, through a healthy profile of fat intake, low proportion of carbohydrate, low glycemic index, high content of dietary fiber, antioxidant compounds, and anti-inflammatory effects, reduces the risk of certain ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

A plant based diet with no thought about supplements would be far more risky.

This study is about nutritional content, and no one is denying that animal products are high on micronutrients.

 

[g0rph]

This study is about nutritional content, and no one is denying that animal products are high on micronutrients.

That's the point I am making. The Med diet can be eaten, with pretty much no thoughts of nutrients. The plant-based diet (even if it is better overall), you must consider nutrients that you may be not eating enough of.

 

[fakei]

That's the point I am making. The Med diet can be eaten, with pretty much no thoughts of nutrients. The plant-based diet (even if it is better overall), you must consider nutrients that you may be not eating enough of.

No it doesn't, I can assure you that.

And then you have the nutrients paradox, like in osteoporosis, where societies that consume more milk, rich in calcium, have the higher rates of osteoporosis.

You are looking at things from a nutrient contents only, and the ability to satisfy estimated nutritional needs which may be inflated. You are not considering the saturated fat content, the excessive amount of proteins and refined carbs and what that can do.

And then there is the issue if satisfying estimated nutritional needs is ideal, studies have found that going below caloric needs can increase life expectancy.

And overall, if you think it is better why don't you switch to it and see the difference?

One of the reasons I don't buy into these arguments is that I experienced the difference. And going back some times to meat and fish over the first 15 years where I dwelled mostly between strict vegetarianism and vegetarianism only helped realising that the strict vegetarian was the best.

 

[g0rph]

And overall, if you think it is better why don't you switch to it and see the difference?

Because I don't consume animal products for ethical reasons, not health reasons.
Prior to this I ate beef 2-4 times a week (steak on Fridays), Pork 2-4 times a week including bacon saturday and sunday, and fish 2-3 times a week.
I didn't drink milk other than in tea, but I ate maybe 6 or 7 eggs a week...
I ate lots of onion, garlic, tomatoes, olive oil, sunflower oil and enjoyed burgers and sausages regularly. My health was what I would consider "very good".
And I never thought twice about supplements other than falling for the excess vitamin C thing whenever I had a cold.

Now I do.
I have no doubt my current diet is more healthy, but I know I have to ensure I get nutrients that are deficient in this diet.

 

[fakei]

Regarding the view that a diet that fulfils the estimated nutritional parameters is the best, the Okinawan diet which is associated with more longevity than others does not. The article below shows protein content is very low and Jeff Nelson going through the data in his channel also points out there are other nutritional deficiencies when it comes to vitamins, for instance.

New Horizons: Dietary protein, ageing and the Okinawan ratio - PMC

Nutrition has profound effects on ageing and lifespan. Caloric restriction is the major nutritional intervention that historically has been shown to influence lifespan and/or healthspan in many animal models. Studies have suggested that a reduction ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[fakei]

Because I don't consume animal products for ethical reasons, not health reasons.

Any reason that good conscience and being happy with your lifestyle should not be included as positive health factors .

 

[g0rph]

Any reason that good conscience and being happy with your lifestyle should not be included as positive health factors .

Absolutely not.
Although the fact that my S.O. and my kids are not vegan certainly messes with the mental side of things ;(

 

[PTree15]

Supplement what? B12, like the meat eaters do? D3, like most everyone needs based on location?
So sick of the tired old "well planned plant based diet" as if simply the addition of animal food magically made any diet just fine . Facts are that people are simply USED to the nutrition that eating animal things gives, as well as the negative impact. Know what "normal" means here? It means accustomed to, and people are accustomed to eating animal products. Everyone advocates when you go vegan to chart your nutrition (which I'm all for BTW), yet how many people track there animal diet to compare? How many understand the difference in the nutrition bioavailibility of plants vs meats, and the difference in needs?

What the heck is designed supposed to mean here anyway?

Exactly! You would think non-veg*ns are so careful with their nutrition. Many aren't, and I get so annoyed when they start with the "where and do you get enough protein," and "what about vitamins." Grrr. Everyone should pay attention to their nutrition, period.

 

[Tom L.]

About whether or not veganism or strict vegetarianism is, by itself, a "natural" diet for humans or healthy without any supplementation: I honestly think it's irrelevant. My goal is both to be healthy and to avoid harm to animals. If this requires supplementation with vitamin B-12, calcium, vitamin D, or anything else, I have absolutely no problem with it. However, the "anything else" is only a theoretical concern: I know my diet is completely adequate.

I didn't know domestic cattle were given B-12 supplements. Wild bovids and cervids the world over don't get supplements, but they manage just fine. Calcium can be hard to get for wild herbivores, depending on what they eat. But I, as a human, prefer to eat supplemented food. People would think I was weird if I started licking up mud at the local salt lick- and though I've been known to eat such foul things as cilantro rather than let otherwise good food go to waste, I have my limits.

 

[silva]

Silva, I know full well that meat eaters supplement via added cobalt and B12 etc in for example, cow feed.
I mention it all the time on that other, more hostile place when it's brought up.

One thing I don't like with any argument is dishonesty though. We should tell it like it is.
We have been eating a mix of plants and animal products for 100s of thousands of years. If we swap to plant only then we definitely need to put a little extra thought into it to make sure we get all the nutrients we need to be healthy.
(One reason the Mediterranean diet was brought up. B12 is added to cow feed and is in fish. D3 is in eggs, meat, cheese etc - People on that diet simply do not need to think about it AND it is shown to be very healthy)
We do need to think about it a bit more, especially at the start.

The word "designed" in the OP is unfortunate and obviously completely out of place and misleading considering the fact that we evolved to be what we are today.

While there is a good bit of ignorance about nutrition it'd hardly towards plant based diets, but diets in general. I've seen so many omnivores taken by ambulance because of low potassium levels. Cardio vascular disease is rampant among omnivores. Meat and dairy are the leading cause of inflammation. I could on and on.... Most physicians will admit they don't push plant based diets because people are so resistant.
Now what I do find true about 'well planned' is trying to find packaged foods that don't have animal products
There is nothing magical in meat egg or dairy that cover nutritional inadequacies. People are simply used to feeling bad on typical diets