US Chuck Hagel’s confirmation hearing

[Second Summer]

I came across the link to this blog entry in a tweet from Jon Snow (of Channel 4). For copyright reasons I'm only quoting part of it, but please read the whole thing at the link below.

This hearing is a wonderful event because it demonstrates the naked influence of the Israel lobby in our political life. But, you say, Lindsey Graham is a South Carolina senator; he is operating out of his nationalist understanding of imperial interest; the Israel lobby cannot also reach him? But I think it has. I think Zionism has so influenced the American political culture, via political money and thinktanks and columnists and editors, that it has folded Israel's war against Hezbollah, Hamas, the Palestinians and Iran into our outlook on the Middle East. The conflation of American and Israeli interests has become an article of faith in the establishment.

Hagel offers himself as secretary of Israel’s defense (mondoweiss.net)

FYI: From mondoweiss.net's "about" page:
"Mondoweiss is a news website devoted to covering American foreign policy in the Middle East, chiefly from a progressive Jewish perspective."

Your thoughts? Have any of you followed this hearing?

 

[rainforests1]

I'll try to read it soon. From what I understand Hagel voted for the Afghanistan and Iraq wars. Why are Democrats on his side when he's clearly a warmonger? Thanks for posting.

 

[ledboots]

Hagel offers himself as secretary of Israel’s defense (mondoweiss.net)

FYI: From mondoweiss.net's "about" page:
"Mondoweiss is a news website devoted to covering American foreign policy in the Middle East, chiefly from a progressive Jewish perspective."

Your thoughts? Have any of you followed this hearing?

From a Jewish perspective?

 

[mlp]

I'll try to read it soon. From what I understand Hagel voted for the Afghanistan and Iraq wars. Why are Democrats on his side when he's clearly a warmonger? Thanks for posting.

Why are Republicans opposing him for being too soft on matters of military aggression?

 

[mlp]

With respect to the opening post, I think that the writer's emphasis on "the Israel lobby" and "Zionism" influence on "American political culture" reflects the writer's failure to understand the profound impact of various types of self interest (non-Jewish, non-Israeli, non-Zionist) at play with respect to American support of Israel.

In another thread, Yakherder provided a very clear and concise description of the importance of Israel in protecting oil and other financial interests of not only the U.S. but other countries in a resource rich and politically and socially unstable region.

Then you also have the religious right and their support of Israel because of their end of days beliefs, which support of the concept of Israel goes hand-in-hand with a deep seated bigotry against Jews as human beings. Some of the nastiest anti Semitic comments I have ever heard have come from Christians who believe that the survival of Israel as a state is vital to their core religious beliefs.

You also have the Republican emphasis on a strong military and strong self defense, in which Israel plays a role second only to the U.S. military. That will never be meaningfully challenged by the Democrats if for no other reason than that the Democrats continue to be very sensitive to any charges (consistently levied against them by conservatives) that they are weak kneeed pansies soft on defense and national security.

 

[rainforests1]

Why are Republicans opposing him for being too soft on matters of military aggression?

The fact is few people on here are Republican. We hear about all of this good the Democrats stand for(and almost all would agree the Republican party is a joke) so it's odd to me that a person who supported two wars of aggression would be promoted the way Hagel is. Just a sign of what the Democrats really stand for.

 

[rainforests1]

In another thread, Yakherder provided a very clear and concise description of the importance of Israel in protecting oil and other financial interests of not only the U.S. but other countries in a resource rich and politically and socially unstable region.

We were allies with Israel going back to the Truman administration. Did we know about the Middle East's oil back then? If not, it likely has nothing to do with any alliance we have with Israel.

 

[yakherder]

Oil was discovered in 1908. By the time WWI came around, Britain had control of Egypt, Muscat, Oman, Qatar, Bahrain, and Kuwait. The fate of the Ottoman Empire was sealed shortly after WWI, with the Treaty of Sèvres basically breaking up the Middle East into what it is now, with the exception of Israel. With the end of traditional colonialism, however, Israel and Bahrain became strategically critical. I'm not gonna write a novel because I'm just not in the mood, to be honest, but if you want to see something interesting in regards to western oil interests in the Middle East, read up on the above mentioned Treaty of Sèvres and, even more importantly, the Tripartite Agreement (the one signed in 1920, not the ones signed later, which had completely different purposes).

World War I has never really ended in the Middle East, and it's all about resources. Like I've said before though, I don't even bother judging the way things progress based on what's right or wrong, only cause and effect. People can say what they want about the state of the middle east and how bad they hate war and violence, but they cast their votes for continued conflict there (and in Africa) by the lifestyles they lead, lifestyles which are completely dependent on our ability to secure access to these resources.

 

[Second Summer]

In another thread, Yakherder provided a very clear and concise description of the importance of Israel in protecting oil and other financial interests of not only the U.S. but other countries in a resource rich and politically and socially unstable region.

I'd like to see that post. Are you implying Israelis / Jews are controlling the world of finance? And how the heck is an alliance with Israel helping the US supposedly get their hands on Middle East oil?

 

[mlp]

I'd like to see that post. Are you implying Israelis / Jews are controlling the world of finance? And how the heck is an alliance with Israel helping the US supposedly get their hands on Middle East oil?

No, I'm not implying that Israel/Jews are controlling the world of finance, where did you get that idea?

I'm saying that the economies of many countries depend on the oil and other natural resources of the Middle East, and that therefore those countries have a strong economic interest in having an ally in the region which is politically and socially stable.

I don't remember the thread in which that post of Yakherder's appears, but he may. Also, see his post immediately above yours.

 

[mlp]

The fact is few people on here are Republican. We hear about all of this good the Democrats stand for(and almost all would agree the Republican party is a joke) so it's odd to me that a person who supported two wars of aggression would be promoted the way Hagel is. Just a sign of what the Democrats really stand for.

I find it interesting that you would think that anyone more peacenik than Hagel would stand a chance of confirmation when even Hagel is facing almost 100% opposition by the Republicans.

 

[Second Summer]

No, I'm not implying that Israel/Jews are controlling the world of finance, where did you get that idea?

I'm saying that the economies of many countries depend on the oil and other natural resources of the Middle East, and that therefore those countries have a strong economic interest in having an ally in the region which is politically and socially stable.

The way you phrased it made it sound like you were a secret anti-semite. So I guess you won't be confirmed as secretary of defense. C'mon mlp, I'm yanking your chain!

But seriously. Israel is a pariah in the region, and they have little influence over the other ME countries, except the limited influence they create by intimidation of war. They also don't have much oil to speak of. By making Israel their main ally, the US has angered people across the ME. It's one of the main rallying calls for islamists, and has caused an unnecessary polarization. (Yes, I know you don't want to believe this.) If the US wanted stability in the region, it would seem incredibly unwise to ally themselves with the one country everyone despises.

I don't remember the thread in which that post of Yakherder's appears, but he may. Also, see his post immediately above yours.

That post, at least on its own, doesn't seem to explain the issues you and I are discussing.

 

[mlp]

The earlier post of yakherder's does, quite well. He made it within the last couple of months. I've never bothered figuring out the search function on this board, but I'm sure you can find it.

 

[Second Summer]

The earlier post of yakherder's does, quite well. He made it within the last couple of months. I've never bothered figuring out the search function on this board, but I'm sure you can find it.

The only post I found that touches on this:

What Israel represents here is an easily defensible fortress in the midst of a highly volatile but resource rich area. Regardless of what our hearts tell us would be ethical to do, it would be a strategic blunder to let it go. All involved will continue to play this political game, pretending like they give a damn about Palestinian and Israeli civilians that get caught up in it, in order to maintain that advantageous position. Israel could probably dump napalm on kindergartens without losing our support, though naturally we'd rather it not come to that because we want to maintain as much face as we possibly can in that support.

That doesn't really seem to explain how an alliance with Israel is helping the US get their hands on ME oil, or how it protects US financial interests in the region beyond Israel itself.

 

[mlp]

The only post I found that touches on this:

That doesn't really seem to explain how an alliance with Israel is helping the US get their hands on ME oil, or how it protects US financial interests in the region beyond Israel itself.

You don't understand how the existence of Israel preserves a status quo in the region that's in the interests of the U.S. and the other western nations that rely on oil?

 

[Second Summer]

You don't understand how the existence of Israel preserves a status quo in the region that's in the interests of the U.S. and the other western nations that rely on oil?

I would be surprised if the existence of Israel was threatened by Chuck Hagel becoming US secretary of defense. And no, I don't see how ending the unconditional support of Israel would negatively affect the relationship with oil-rich ME nations.

 

[mlp]

I would be surprised if the existence of Israel was threatened by Chuck Hagel becoming US secretary of defense.

Oh, I don't think so either. That's the Republican line, not mine. And it has everything to do with Republican emphasis on military strength, maintaining status quo in oil rich countries, and the whole end of days religious thing, and nothing at all to do with liking for Jews, of which there is not a whole lot among conservatives. And don't forget opposing Obama just for the sake of opposing him.

And no, I don't see how ending the unconditional support of Israel would negatively affect the relationship with oil-rich ME nations.

I don't think it would improve it either. Do you actually think that they would lower oil prices because they suddenly liked us better?

BTW, I don't think U.S. support for Israel should be unconditional. I'm just perplexed that people can't see the many ways in which having a strong, socially and politically stable, ally in the Middle East benefits the U.S. and other western nations in very pragmatic and self serving ways.

 

[das_nut]

I came across the link to this blog entry in a tweet from Jon Snow (of Westeros).

I fixed that for you.

 

[rainforests1]

Where do you find the rest of the hearing? I don't have cable so I don't get C-Span.

I'm saying that the economies of many countries depend on the oil and other natural resources of the Middle East, and that therefore those countries have a strong economic interest in having an ally in the region which is politically and socially stable.

Yet even countries like the UK don't have a very, very close relationship with Israel like the United States does. If oil is a factor it's a very small one.

 

[yakherder]

“Britain is a good friend of Israel, and our support for Israel and Israel’s security is unshakable. We are strong friends of Israel. There is a real opportunity with the end of bin Laden, and the Arab spring. This is a moment of opportunity to continue the work, and to defeat terrorism in our world and to continue the expansion of democracy, civil rights and freedom across the Middle East and North Africa.” David Cameron, UK’s Prime Minister

(translation: UK will be involved in the Middle East and in North Africa in the foreseeable future)

That said, you're right that their relationship is definitely strained due to the stance the general population of UK has taken in regards to Israel. But the stance of the population and the stance of the government who actually understands the tactical nature of its alliances are completely different things.