Culling of animals-what alternatives if any ?

[Vegan Dogs]

Sometimes it is easy to express platitudes like..animal lives matter...and then take actions that show we do not practise what we believe meaning...either we kill by buying bred and killed by us humans animals to feed our "pets" or we allow billions of abandoned "pets" to be culled by not taking them into our homes or paying for them to live in cages all their prisoner status lives of boredom and misery...or we allow and recognise that culling of invasive species such as feral cats is a necessary evil because not culled they would destroy all native real wildlife then go extinct through starvation themselves.

I address and put the case of Australia but not exclusively Australia since every country culls 50 percent of abandoned domestic cat species cats....culling over 2 million gone feral and reproducing like vermin rats as they do and destroying the native already fragile due to animal agriculture mostly but now also due to the unnatural to the ecosystem domestic cat species that humans introduced and are responsible for the most bred to start with cats.

Being in Europe, the only real "wildcat" species the Scottish Wildcat is extinct in the uk. It was a huge cat animal with the power to kill a sheep as so large and powerful. The domestic cat species are nothing like this original real wild cat species. The real wildcat was driven to extinction by farmers killing them to protect their animal agriculture sheep they raised.Wolves also were driven to extinction for the same reason I add of course. Wild boar wild bears were driven to extinction in Europe centuries ago also. Other than caging some trophy examples in reservations there is no likelhood or possibility of these species returning to live free and wild in Europe today. Human population and activities issues being the reason. What wildlife remains in Europe are birds and hedgehog type animals whose numbers have declined by 70 percent in the past 40 years and half of the birds decline is down to the domestic cat invasive species effects.

Expressing platitudes like...ooh what a shame no they should not kill them...without proposing a realistic affordable practical solution as an alternative is not a good enough answer I suggest.

We shut our minds to the fact that we condone meaning approve of the culling of 50 percent of a nation's abandoned cats and dogs...because we do not "save" them by legally adopting them. Therefore we recognise there are limits to resources and space for keeping these prisoners of humans in other prisons of slightly more walkies etc.

What alternative is there ? to culling ? I say none...and that the long term solution that would ensure far far less cullings would be to recognise all animals should live free and only species natural to ecosystems should be protected by human interference to redress imbalances that we have currently historically created by our actions.

Australia is busy culling 2 million gone feral domestic cats...because as stated also the domestic cat breed is an invasive species unnatural to most countries it was introduced...and destroys massively "feral" wildlife if not culled or forcibly sterilised.


2 million feral domestic cat species animals are being culled in Australia. If people continue to "own" pet domestic cats...this will continue to be a ensure needed to take.

I repeat...alternatives as suggestions needed. If none...and I suggest there is only 1 alternative...let the cats destroy all the native species then starve to death themselves naturally once they have achieved that...is the only alternative.
http/sciencenordic.com/scientist-australia’s-feral-cats-should-be-eradicated

 

[Lou]

@Vegan Dogs

Unfortunately, history is full of examples of imported wildlife (incidentally, accidentally and on purpose) damaging native species. Austrailia has dozens of examples of this. So does Hawaii. But even here in the continental USA its not hard to find examples of this.

In many cases, the eradication of the invader is very difficult. Both practically and sometimes emotionally. And feral cats are an excellent example of both.

Feral cats are also a big problem here in the US. but the consequences are not anything like in Austraila. No one quite knows how many "homeless cats" live in the US. But its estimated at between 60 and 100 million. My local animal shelter is a "No Kill" shelter. And the economics, ethics, and effectiveness of No Kill shelters is another issue for another day. Anyway, the shelter is full of "adoptable" animals. Cats are simply trapped, neutered, and returned (TNR) to where they were found. There is even a group of volunteers who actively trap feral cats and transport them back and forth from the shelter*.

The effectiveness of this policy has been questioned repeatedly. The math simply shows that this technique cannot work without huge investment. And feral cats just don't pose that much of a problem. For most people its a problem they just don't have to face that often.

With Australia's more manageable number and real consequences, the government and citizens can make a concerted effort. Perhaps a TNR program could work if it was intensive. I'm pretty sure that some smart biologist has already done the numbers. I wonder if its feasible.

The other thing to keep in mind is that in most situations when a non-native species is damaging something typical solution is poison bait and/or traps. those solutions also lead to collateral damage. and in some cases, the collateral damage is not allowable or tolerable.



* the process is to locate a population and start leaving kibble in certain places. After the cats get used to the kibble the kibble is then placed in a "humane cat trap". The next morning the trap usually has a cat in it. I used to do the kibble part. My car's back seat is not big enough for the trap. A woman I worked with did most of the ferrying. We were working along a trail near our workplace. when she quit, i quit too. Her job was more time intensive than my part. Although i went with her to keep her company a lot. I think the futility of it got to us. We never ran low on cats.

 

[Vegan Dogs]

@Vegan Dogs

Unfortunately, history is full of examples of imported wildlife (incidentally, accidentally and on purpose) damaging native species. Austrailia has dozens of examples of this. So does Hawaii. But even here in the continental USA its not hard to find examples of this.

In many cases, the eradication of the invader is very difficult. Both practically and sometimes emotionally. And feral cats are an excellent example of both.

Feral cats are also a big problem here in the US. but the consequences are not anything like in Austraila. No one quite knows how many "homeless cats" live in the US. But its estimated at between 60 and 100 million. My local animal shelter is a "No Kill" shelter. And the economics, ethics, and effectiveness of No Kill shelters is another issue for another day. Anyway, the shelter is full of "adoptable" animals. Cats are simply trapped, neutered, and returned (TNR) to where they were found. There is even a group of volunteers who actively trap feral cats and transport them back and forth from the shelter*.

The effectiveness of this policy has been questioned repeatedly. The math simply shows that this technique cannot work without huge investment. And feral cats just don't pose that much of a problem. For most people its a problem they just don't have to face that often.

With Australia's more manageable number and real consequences, the government and citizens can make a concerted effort. Perhaps a TNR program could work if it was intensive. I'm pretty sure that some smart biologist has already done the numbers. I wonder if its feasible.

The other thing to keep in mind is that in most situations when a non-native species is damaging something typical solution is poison bait and/or traps. those solutions also lead to collateral damage. and in some cases, the collateral damage is not allowable or tolerable.



* the process is to locate a population and start leaving kibble in certain places. After the cats get used to the kibble the kibble is then placed in a "humane cat trap". The next morning the trap usually has a cat in it. I used to do the kibble part. My car's back seat is not big enough for the trap. A woman I worked with did most of the ferrying. We were working along a trail near our workplace. when she quit, i quit too. Her job was more time intensive than my part. Although i went with her to keep her company a lot. I think the futility of it got to us. We never ran low on cats.

I also question the sense in the USA practice of trapping feral domestic cats then neutering them then putting them in rescues...where half are destroyed anyway as a general national average...the no kill shelters on take in the numbers they have funds for so in reality the cull still takes place overall. feral cats destroying wild birds etc is damaging...they also die in great numbers from starvation and diseases...not sure if a big problem for road accidents unlike feral dogs they are not big damage to cars on roads just splatted like rodents are.

australia is into the cull obviously...did the economics and that at the end of the day determines the need.

on a slightly off topic of cats issue...i am personally annoyed that some parts of the world decided to cull the grey squirrel...the area of wales in britain anglesey eradicated millions of grey squirrels in the hope and wish to bring back the red squirrel that was weaker genetically so die of diseases the imported on human ships grey squirrels resisted better obviously. now because this is a case of discrimination in 1 species...squirrels...i lean to the view we humans created the invasive grey squirel problem...but since it was genetically stronger than the red who died of diseases the greys do not get...i am not convinced humans interfering again in this squirrel massacre is worthwhile.

I picked up one day an injured grey squirrel in my carpark...took it to the vet...they destroyed it...because being grey it would not be released back into the wild. speciesism hey.

ps the reproduction of domestic cats is off the richter scale...every 6 weeks they come on heat...and a single couple can in a few years produce 80 thousand descendants with their propensity to mate and get pregnant on copulation as that sets off ovulation. now domestic dogs are also a problem in that they come on heat 2 times a year...unlike wild dogs or wolves who have only 1 heat per year...so again humans created breeds that breed like rodents so cause a huge problem of population of unnatural in the wild species if uncontrolled. ah here is the figure of 30 millions d'amis fr animal organisation...Car un couple de chats non stérilisés peut engendrer plus de 20 000 descendants en 4 ans. 1 pair of cats...can produce 20 thousand more cats in only 4 years.

let us not talk about respecting natural instincts of domestic cats hey...food is the least of the problem...what we feed them if adopted...we castrate and sterilise them and totally destroy their instincts to mate and have families...now this is actually animal abuse...no lion no cat asks for this to be done to her or him..we humans force it on them. better than being dead is our excuse ? well we play God for sure. but we hardly respect animal rights and instincts when we do such extreme things to animals. reduce them to lobotomised eunochs with no sex drives and no families to live with as nature intended them to. mind you half of them would die naturally in nature also from starvation...so again...what we feed them is hardly a big issue.

If there were no trap and neuter spay forced on cats...all bird wildlife would b already all gone ! so we humans excuse our animal abuse of cats on those grounds also....now feeding these pest feral cats is also a matter of saving lives...of animals that humans breed and kill so not vegan. no need to feed feral cats other bred by humans animals...it is farcical to do so even.

 

[Lou]

@ vegan dogs

Huh? is the grey squirrel nonnative?

I've heard a biologist defend non-native invasive species this way.
It's evolution in action. Even if humans didn't take part in the introduction of the non-native species it was bound to happen given enough millions of years. We have just accelerated the timetable. Let nature take its course.

 

[Vegan Dogs]

@ vegan dogs

Huh? is the grey squirrel nonnative?

I've heard a biologist defend non-native invasive species this way.
It's evolution in action. Even if humans didn't take part in the introduction of the non-native species it was bound to happen given enough millions of years. We have just accelerated the timetable. Let nature take its course.

yep news to me too it was...i only found out after i took the squirrel to the vet ! then i read and found out anglesey had claimed succes at eradicating all grey squirrels on a sort of island on the west of wales ! ..anyway. never saw a red squirrel there in spite of all this culling of greys. it is evolution i agree...they should not have become biased in favour of reds over greys.

 

[Lou]

I heard that the British hate squirrels cause they eat the bird feed right out of their backyard birdfeeders.

 

[Emma JC]

I heard that the British hate squirrels cause they eat the bird feed right out of their backyard birdfeeders.

That happens all over the world!! especially in the winter time.

Emma JC

 

[Vegan Dogs]

ah now that leads to another issue. wild bird feeding by humans.

what would happen...if the HUGE amount of birdfood the public buy at just about every garden center supermarket etc ...stopped ?

i am convinced it is easy to get the public to feed birds as they "get" pleasure of seeing and watching them closer up by doing so. i do it !

but ! is this natural ? i am convinced that the very existance of wild birds is hugely dependant on human food provided ! because if you look at all the grains peanuts etc bought to feed the birds...that quantity is nowhere in the fields etc for wild birds to eat naturally !

seagulls ! are to be seen and heard miles inland ! u look up thinking pigeon...but ooh no...seagulls...come into cities to scavenge for food as none at the seaside !

 

[Nekodaiden]

Culling of White Man, a regrettable necessity. What alternatives if any?

White man has undoubtedly ruined native eco systems, destroyed billions of lives unnecessarily, it’s own and other species and wrecked havoc on earth.

It’s easy to say White Man’s lives matter, and then take actions allowing White Man to continue to live and cause unspeakable suffering and destruction.

Therefore, white man should be culled.

Those who do not wish to be culled can live like an Native Aborigine in Australia, an Native Indian in the USA, and whatever other native tribes they are in other parts of the world. This must necessarily include forsaking all land, roaming everywhere and eating witchetty grubs. It must also include being topless without shame – both the women and the men - with the exception of those who eat too many witchetty grubs, as they are rather unsightly.

 

[Nekodaiden]

In seriousness, I think the danger posed by cats to natural wildlife (in terms of extinction) characterized by adjectives like “massive” and “huge” and the idea that somehow they’re going to gobble up all the wildlife and then die of starvation is a wildly exaggerated fantasy. This is especially true in a place like Australia, where there is limited human and cat population and a whole lot of open land for lots of different species to live without threat of suddenly dying out.

 

[Emma JC]

ah now that leads to another issue. wild bird feeding by humans.

This is definitely an interesting conundrum and I do believe that we should refrain from feeding wild animals. I love to swim with wild dolphins and that is one thing that nevers happens on the boat that I prefer, no feeding!! There is playing and diving and swimming and squeaking... no feeding. They swim with us if they wish to, not for any reward other than species interaction and IMO love.

Emma JC

 

[Vegan Dogs]

This is definitely an interesting conundrum and I do believe that we should refrain from feeding wild animals. I love to swim with wild dolphins and that is one thing that nevers happens on the boat that I prefer, no feeding!! There is playing and diving and swimming and squeaking... no feeding. They swim with us if they wish to, not for any reward other than species interaction and IMO love.

Emma JC

well this is exactly what i realised...seeing the huge number of birdseeds people buy and put out for birds...i started thinking...

1. this is "training" them to not go find their own food but become dependant on humans...unnatural.
2. certain species depending on what seeds are fed will benefit morethan other species...so again affecting who survives and which species do not...

we are probably ... keeping going birds in numbers and species that nature itself would not support

I then thought of...the re introduced "red kite" that went extinct in britain europe...and humans forcibly reintroduced importing birds from europe germany of slightly different species type than the british ones had been

then...these birds were fed regularly by these organisations of birds...and the public encouraged to feed them too

now they have multiplied...one can go to do "kite feeding" viewings in wales now apparently where again human throw all sorts of food out to them.

All the media loved this stuff...a spectacular bird...the red kite...seen flying in britain again

they thrive off rubbish bins too being carrion type feeders

but...is this "natural" ? forcibly bringing in species that were not the original species...of a species that had gone extinct and only survives due to humans feeding them ?

the hoo ha has died down...but i was annoyed that the common hedgehog did not get as much hoo ha as less spectacular and "sexy" a species...i mean the royals in britain "never" mention the hedgehog...are into trips to africa to rant about elephants ! more sexy species issue.

I am convinced...the "sexiness" the "sellability" of what species humans decide to "preserve" or in the case of the red kite suddenly introduce and sustain...are speciesist.

the red kite birds...went extinct...due to animal farming practices mostly.

and the hedgehog the same...down from 30 to 1 million in the last 40 years.

 

[Lou]

A couple of interesting stories and examples of humans and the rule of unintentional consequences.

The first story has to do with our backyard bird feeders. Some species of birds have developed longer beaks in order to be able to better feed at backyard bird feeders. (1) One group lives in Britain where there is a lot of backyard bird feeders. The same species also live in the Netherlands where there are fewer bird feeders. Over the last 40 or 50 years, researchers have documented the British bird's beaks getting longer. Evolution in action? Since these two tribes don't interbreed will this result in a new species?

There is another story, where backyard bird feeding has changed migration habits in the UK. There was this one species of warbler that migrated to somewhere warm to breed. some of its fellows found a living among the bird feeders in the UK. Since they didn't meet during breeding season they may turn into two species. (2)

Then there is this story that I just learned some more details about. There are 6 subspecies of Canadian Geese. One of them is called Residential Canadian Geese. They don't migrate. In the '60s geese were hunted almost to extinction. The US wildlife service started a program to save the goose. They collected eggs, incubated them, and they hatched in wildlife preserves. However, these birds seem to learn how to migrate from their parents. So they just became residential geese. (3)

then this happened. The geese found cities and suburbs very conducive. They pretty much took over parks and the shorelines of lakes. In my town, there is a large flock that pretty much owns the shoreline of a lagoon. A single goose can make a pound of poop a day. So this quickly becomes a nuisance. Right now it seems the policy is to destroy the nests and eggs each season. Since geese can live as long as ten years they hope through attrition to reduce or even eliminate geese along the shoreline.

BTW if you need a nice pick me up one evening find a copy of the 2001 documentary Winged Migration. It's fantastic.
Here is the trailer.

1. https://www.theguardian.com/environ...rds-evolve-bigger-beaks-to-use-garden-feeders
2. https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=121092289
3. https://animals.mom.me/geese-dont-migrate-6866.html

 

[Lou]

this turned up in my inbox today. I thought the article was relevant to our discussion.

https://www.care2.com/causes/3-times-animals-unexpectedly-wreaked-havoc.html

The use of introducing to an ecosystem a non-native species to control another non-native invasive species has been not been done that often. there have been a few success stories. Hawaii seems to be the home of quite a few. but also one of the worst "backfires": the mongoose.
this is a pretty good article on Hawaii and biological controls.

http://mauiinvasive.org/2012/04/18/...-the-succuss-of-biological-control-in-hawaii/

The first article included a segment of The Simpsons. Principal Skinner proposes uses biological controls in Springfield.
I have to find that episode and watch it again.

 

[veganDreama]

I'm ok about trapping, neutering and returning cats but nothing that kills animals. I just don't think that we should interfere in this way.

 

[Lou]

So now I'm worried about Rick Scott and something like a snake eating Gorilla. Rick Scott, governor of Florida would be a real-life Skinner if he was only a little smarter or less corrupt.

And Florida has something just like the Bolivian Tree Lizard.

It turns out that Burmese pythons have been in the wild in South Florida since the beginning of this century. They might have escaped during a hurricane or maybe they were pets that were abandoned.

"Burmese pythons prey on a wide variety of birds, mammals, and crocodilian species occupying the Everglades. Pronounced declines in a number of mammalian species have coincided spatially and temporally with the proliferation of pythons in southern Florida, indicating the already devastating impacts upon native animals. Although the low detectability of pythons makes population estimates difficult, most researchers propose that at least 30,000 and upwards of 300,000"

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burmese_pythons_in_Florida
(I added the italics)

To add to my fears, with Global Warming, the range of the python is only expanding.

And it doesn't snow in Florida. So the snake eating gorillas won't die during the winter.

 

[Lou]

And in a related news story


To Decrease Bird Kills, Cat Lovers Team Up With Bird Lovers In D.C. Cat Count
https://www.npr.org/2018/11/11/6658...ers-team-up-with-bird-lovers-in-d-c-cat-count