When veganism becomes mainstream and farm animals have become redundant, what will maintain the fertility of the soils?
Fertility of the soil
- Thread starter Paul Bradford
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Lou
Forum Legend
Veganic agriculture is really popular with the pot farmers of California. It's like the Next New thing in organic farming.
But if I remember my history correctly, it originated in Europe. and there definitely was a UK connection. I did a quickie google search but couldn't find it but I think, if I remember correctly, there is a UK University or research facility that is the leader in veganic science.
But if I remember my history correctly, it originated in Europe. and there definitely was a UK connection. I did a quickie google search but couldn't find it but I think, if I remember correctly, there is a UK University or research facility that is the leader in veganic science.
Thankyou for providing that link @nobody, but it doesn't answer the question posed in the OP, If the world population became Vegan, they would not all be able, capable or willing to grow their own products.
As I understand it, the view put forward by the Vegans is that 80 % of the worlds land is used to produce food that is used for animal feed, unfortunately that claim is based on falsehoods. I will explain why that figure is misleading.
The production of food around the world is extremely varied, but two main factors govern how and which type of food is produced, the climate and the soil (ground) type. A large proportion of the land that is used is actually very unproductive, either because of poor soil or lack of rain / sun. This land will grow some grasses, but wont be cultivated, it might however be grazed by livestock at a very low density. An example of this type of ground can be found just a few miles from where I live, and most likely very close to where any of you live, in my case it is the moorland that runs through the centre of the UK, thousands and thousands of acres which is useless for the provision of any ingredients for a Vegan diet but when the vegans calculate the proportion of land used for animal feed production they include this area.
The next grade of land is land which has enough soil to support a cereal crop (but not Maize, or Corn as it might be known in your region), around the world crops are grown on this type of land, huge expanses of ground that on average produce just 2.5 tonnes of grain per hectare (1 ton / acre), these crops are grown on a minimum input, obviously because the output is so small, but the scale of the farming makes it worthwhile. Some of the grain grown on these areas might be of a suitable standard to be milled into bread for human consumption, but that would depend on the climate throughout the growing season, most likely the grains will only be suitable to be used for animal feed.
The rest of the land ranges from productive to very productive, and is used mainly for growing crops that will be consumed in one form or another by Humans. It is well known that wheat is an ingredient for bread, But it is only in certain areas (even in the productive regions ) that a crop of wheat will meet the standards required, a Farmer will grow the plant and treat it in order to maximise the chance of it making the grade, but the wrong amount of rain or sunshine will destroy that prospect, so what should the farmer do with his crop of wheat that isn't suitable for conversion into bread? at the moment it is diverted from its original destination and instead of being made into bread it is made into animal feed, So the climate dictated where the wheat was used, but if the option for using it for animal feed was removed the grain would just go to waste.
So very quickly the amount of ground suitable for growing Vegan products is diminishing, YES, on a small scale the world can produce Vegan products for those that choose for moral reasons to live that way, But there is no way the entire planet could be fed to Vegan standards at current population levels.
Any farmer will always try to grow crops that are destined directly for human consumption simply because they will achieve a higher value, however the climate or soil might make this impossible, so he uses his land to produce animal feed which then becomes suitable for human consumption.
If you have any queries on the above feel free to respond.
As I understand it, the view put forward by the Vegans is that 80 % of the worlds land is used to produce food that is used for animal feed, unfortunately that claim is based on falsehoods. I will explain why that figure is misleading.
The production of food around the world is extremely varied, but two main factors govern how and which type of food is produced, the climate and the soil (ground) type. A large proportion of the land that is used is actually very unproductive, either because of poor soil or lack of rain / sun. This land will grow some grasses, but wont be cultivated, it might however be grazed by livestock at a very low density. An example of this type of ground can be found just a few miles from where I live, and most likely very close to where any of you live, in my case it is the moorland that runs through the centre of the UK, thousands and thousands of acres which is useless for the provision of any ingredients for a Vegan diet but when the vegans calculate the proportion of land used for animal feed production they include this area.
The next grade of land is land which has enough soil to support a cereal crop (but not Maize, or Corn as it might be known in your region), around the world crops are grown on this type of land, huge expanses of ground that on average produce just 2.5 tonnes of grain per hectare (1 ton / acre), these crops are grown on a minimum input, obviously because the output is so small, but the scale of the farming makes it worthwhile. Some of the grain grown on these areas might be of a suitable standard to be milled into bread for human consumption, but that would depend on the climate throughout the growing season, most likely the grains will only be suitable to be used for animal feed.
The rest of the land ranges from productive to very productive, and is used mainly for growing crops that will be consumed in one form or another by Humans. It is well known that wheat is an ingredient for bread, But it is only in certain areas (even in the productive regions ) that a crop of wheat will meet the standards required, a Farmer will grow the plant and treat it in order to maximise the chance of it making the grade, but the wrong amount of rain or sunshine will destroy that prospect, so what should the farmer do with his crop of wheat that isn't suitable for conversion into bread? at the moment it is diverted from its original destination and instead of being made into bread it is made into animal feed, So the climate dictated where the wheat was used, but if the option for using it for animal feed was removed the grain would just go to waste.
So very quickly the amount of ground suitable for growing Vegan products is diminishing, YES, on a small scale the world can produce Vegan products for those that choose for moral reasons to live that way, But there is no way the entire planet could be fed to Vegan standards at current population levels.
Any farmer will always try to grow crops that are destined directly for human consumption simply because they will achieve a higher value, however the climate or soil might make this impossible, so he uses his land to produce animal feed which then becomes suitable for human consumption.
If you have any queries on the above feel free to respond.
Three Chickpeas
Forum Practitioner
We bought our property in 2015. Half-wooded, half-cleared. The cleared portion was red. All clay, some spots had hardened and cracked really bad, nothing would grow on the majority of it. The past few years have been a major effort of using what nature provides and composting. I've mulched leaves and logs alike from mine and a neighbors property, as well as food waste, and spread over the areas things don't grow. All local, no external inputs, and we now have almost all of it growing and supporting new growth. Some portions of the property could be considered lush. No external inputs in only a few years.
Not using animal waste or chemical fertilizers has not caused us any issues. I strategically use plants that contribute to the nutrients in the soil before planting things that remove from the soil. My 'farming' of it is minimally intrusive and I leave what isn't used. My yields, while admittedly terrible the first year or two, are improving each year. It is a lot of work initially, but our soil is healthier than its ever been and will only continue to get better with the right stewardship.
Not using animal waste or chemical fertilizers has not caused us any issues. I strategically use plants that contribute to the nutrients in the soil before planting things that remove from the soil. My 'farming' of it is minimally intrusive and I leave what isn't used. My yields, while admittedly terrible the first year or two, are improving each year. It is a lot of work initially, but our soil is healthier than its ever been and will only continue to get better with the right stewardship.
Absolutely correct, adding organic matter, especially to clay soils will improve it . It can be done on garden scale plots quite easily. But try scaling up, both practically and economically and publish your findings. Gardeners and allotment holders can and do provide themselves with some of their own requirements, but it will require commercial farming practices to feed a Vegan world,
It's a long time since I attended school, but one of the things I remember was a rule that stated something along the lines of energy can neither be created or destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another. The same can be said about growing crops, a plot of land with a crop growing on it will gain energy from the sun, and some nutrients from the rain (although not as much these days, there is less sulphur in the air due to industrialisation cleaning up its act).
If the crop grows, matures, dies and decomposes then it has added nutrients to the soil. These nutrients haven't been created, the plant has used the energy from the sun to convert elements from the soil into organic matter. If you remove the plant (harvest it) then you take away some of the elements from the plot, and the soil will deteriorate over time.
Grass crops are good harvesters of sunshine, although dormant for short periods of the year, they spend the rest of the year gathering that sunshine energy, growing roots which add to the organic content of the soil and growing a canopy of leaves that harvest yet more energy. Grass is great. The problem with grass is that humans can't eat it. So this wonderful crop, which in reality is vitally important for organic crop growing, is destined to be a complete waste of space on a vegan farm
It's a long time since I attended school, but one of the things I remember was a rule that stated something along the lines of energy can neither be created or destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another. The same can be said about growing crops, a plot of land with a crop growing on it will gain energy from the sun, and some nutrients from the rain (although not as much these days, there is less sulphur in the air due to industrialisation cleaning up its act).
If the crop grows, matures, dies and decomposes then it has added nutrients to the soil. These nutrients haven't been created, the plant has used the energy from the sun to convert elements from the soil into organic matter. If you remove the plant (harvest it) then you take away some of the elements from the plot, and the soil will deteriorate over time.
Grass crops are good harvesters of sunshine, although dormant for short periods of the year, they spend the rest of the year gathering that sunshine energy, growing roots which add to the organic content of the soil and growing a canopy of leaves that harvest yet more energy. Grass is great. The problem with grass is that humans can't eat it. So this wonderful crop, which in reality is vitally important for organic crop growing, is destined to be a complete waste of space on a vegan farm
Three Chickpeas
Forum Practitioner
You're assuming animals will no longer exist. They won't be exploited in the same manner, but they will surely still be alive. A few "farms" around me actually offer manure for free to get it out of their pasture for their horses that generally run free.
Missed opportunities for natural, organic fertilizer comes from the waste and dumping of collected yard waste and storm cleanup; i.e. grass clippings, leaves, branches, trees. Ideally, there's a system in place that would redirect this waste from a landfill to a commercially viable composting option.
In older times, farmers use to collect seaweed from the shore because its nutrient-dense benefits.
Massive amounts of food waste, preferably prevented reducing in less demand, should be mass-composted.
The reduction of land-use due to a shift to a vegan world would allow a lot of land to reforest, again providing more resources when harvested sustainably.
There are a lot of inefficiencies that need to be solved, but it doesn't mean that if we run out of animal waste we're going to be unable to grow food.
Side-note: Most grasses are edible, just not palatable. The preference, and one I use on my land, it green-manure. Growing crops that capture nutrients from the sun and air and store them in their roots.
Missed opportunities for natural, organic fertilizer comes from the waste and dumping of collected yard waste and storm cleanup; i.e. grass clippings, leaves, branches, trees. Ideally, there's a system in place that would redirect this waste from a landfill to a commercially viable composting option.
In older times, farmers use to collect seaweed from the shore because its nutrient-dense benefits.
Massive amounts of food waste, preferably prevented reducing in less demand, should be mass-composted.
The reduction of land-use due to a shift to a vegan world would allow a lot of land to reforest, again providing more resources when harvested sustainably.
There are a lot of inefficiencies that need to be solved, but it doesn't mean that if we run out of animal waste we're going to be unable to grow food.
Side-note: Most grasses are edible, just not palatable. The preference, and one I use on my land, it green-manure. Growing crops that capture nutrients from the sun and air and store them in their roots.
Sorry, I made that assumption based on the bad press that cattle get from vegans about the carbon they create (yes I know, there's a lot of dodgy figures in that claim aswell), I thought the bovines had to go.
Strict rules govern what waste products can be spread on land, and to be fair that is quite proper and correct, Farmers produce a top quality product and any chance of contamination must be controlled.
You still seem to be struggling with the scale of providing organic material to land to maintain productivity and eliminate a deterioration in the soil index. My farm isn't organic, but using a mixed rotation I am able to reduce the artificial fertilisers to a minimum, however this means that each acre has 20 tons of organic material spread over it.This material is in the form of straw (the stalks from my grain crops) which has been used to maximise the comfort of my cattle as I protect them from the harsh winter weather. My system doesn't involve hauling green compost around the countryside, it is all produced where it is going to be used. Perfect for the consumer and the planet.
Sad as it might be, the days when you can expect the local serf to go to the beach to collect seaweed are long gone, have you worked out the economics behind that notion?
The food waste comes from the city dwellers I'm afraid, the waste of grain that I feed to my cattle is less than half a percent.
You would need every square inch of productive land to feed a vegan world, and a massive increase in haulage capacity to get it from where it can be grown to ths consumer. I suggest if you want to allow the livestock to survive they will have to be let loose on the not so productive land that can't be utilised for vegan food production.
I'm sorry, but your second to last paragraph is wrong, definitely wrong if it is to be done without artificial fertiliser and chemicals. You wont believe my say so, so Google how much productive land is available, what that land will yield under non intensive production, and then divide the result by the world population. If the year starts in January, the shelves will be empty by October, good luck if you are a politician when that happens.
As I say Google it yourself, look for papers that have been produced independently of any agenda , look for papers that have been peer reviewed and come back and let me know your findings.
I have seen it asked on this very forum why the arguments put forward by the more extreme vegans arent taken up by legitimate parties, The answer is because their figures just don't add up.
Be a vegan because you care about the animals, don't spoil your argument by pedaling myths.
Strict rules govern what waste products can be spread on land, and to be fair that is quite proper and correct, Farmers produce a top quality product and any chance of contamination must be controlled.
You still seem to be struggling with the scale of providing organic material to land to maintain productivity and eliminate a deterioration in the soil index. My farm isn't organic, but using a mixed rotation I am able to reduce the artificial fertilisers to a minimum, however this means that each acre has 20 tons of organic material spread over it.This material is in the form of straw (the stalks from my grain crops) which has been used to maximise the comfort of my cattle as I protect them from the harsh winter weather. My system doesn't involve hauling green compost around the countryside, it is all produced where it is going to be used. Perfect for the consumer and the planet.
Sad as it might be, the days when you can expect the local serf to go to the beach to collect seaweed are long gone, have you worked out the economics behind that notion?
The food waste comes from the city dwellers I'm afraid, the waste of grain that I feed to my cattle is less than half a percent.
You would need every square inch of productive land to feed a vegan world, and a massive increase in haulage capacity to get it from where it can be grown to ths consumer. I suggest if you want to allow the livestock to survive they will have to be let loose on the not so productive land that can't be utilised for vegan food production.
I'm sorry, but your second to last paragraph is wrong, definitely wrong if it is to be done without artificial fertiliser and chemicals. You wont believe my say so, so Google how much productive land is available, what that land will yield under non intensive production, and then divide the result by the world population. If the year starts in January, the shelves will be empty by October, good luck if you are a politician when that happens.
As I say Google it yourself, look for papers that have been produced independently of any agenda , look for papers that have been peer reviewed and come back and let me know your findings.
I have seen it asked on this very forum why the arguments put forward by the more extreme vegans arent taken up by legitimate parties, The answer is because their figures just don't add up.
Be a vegan because you care about the animals, don't spoil your argument by pedaling myths.
Three Chickpeas
Forum Practitioner
They won't all go. There will be millions less though as they won't be bred for the slaughter. Man meat-eaters use this as an argument against veganism. "Oh, there's going to be so many cows left though." This is an extremely uneducated opinion that doesn't cater to reality. The truth of the matter is the shift, if any, will be done gradually. As demand for meat drops, there will be less cows bred as its not profitable to breed cows for no reward. This natural drawdown still includes meat-eaters consuming, drawing down numbers gradually through attrition.
This organic matter you speak of, where does it come from? Cows? Yes, but where do the cows get it? PLANTS. All of it is grown somewhere. It's a cyclic system. The future systems would just exclude the cows. Your system does involve hauling feed around the countryside to feed these cattle. Agricultural systems, at least here in the US, do not grow feed on site and certainly don't range most cattle anymore. They grow feed in one place, ship it to another. Feed the cattle. Ship the cattle to another location for slaughter, then ship again for distribution. More shipping than Compost->Farm->Store.
The 'local farmer to beach' wasn't a suggestion that it is a preferred system, just a reference to history that even in ancient times there was a natural way of fertilization without animals.
If you really believe your comments regarding productive land, then you are wholly unaware or blissfully ignorant of the way the agricultural industrial complex works and inputs/outputs of growing crops and cattle. It makes me question that you are in fact a farmer.
http://news.cornell.edu/stories/1997/08/us-could-feed-800-million-people-grain-livestock-eat
http://www.fao.org/docrep/018/ar591e/ar591e.pdf
This organic matter you speak of, where does it come from? Cows? Yes, but where do the cows get it? PLANTS. All of it is grown somewhere. It's a cyclic system. The future systems would just exclude the cows. Your system does involve hauling feed around the countryside to feed these cattle. Agricultural systems, at least here in the US, do not grow feed on site and certainly don't range most cattle anymore. They grow feed in one place, ship it to another. Feed the cattle. Ship the cattle to another location for slaughter, then ship again for distribution. More shipping than Compost->Farm->Store.
The 'local farmer to beach' wasn't a suggestion that it is a preferred system, just a reference to history that even in ancient times there was a natural way of fertilization without animals.
If you really believe your comments regarding productive land, then you are wholly unaware or blissfully ignorant of the way the agricultural industrial complex works and inputs/outputs of growing crops and cattle. It makes me question that you are in fact a farmer.
http://news.cornell.edu/stories/1997/08/us-could-feed-800-million-people-grain-livestock-eat
http://www.fao.org/docrep/018/ar591e/ar591e.pdf
If you read my earlier post you will see that I am a great fan of grass (you commented on it) , my cattle graze grass in the summer and eat silage (preserved grass) in the winter. The manure is all from vegetative matter grown on the farm. The cattle also eat the grain in the winter time to compliment the silage. The grain that I grow doesn't make the grade for human consumption, not because I do anything incorrectly, but because of the rainfall and the sunlight in our region don't produce the correct grain qualities. So even though, compared to most parts of the world, my ground would be considered fertile, the climate is wrong for successfully growing legumes, the grain crops are suitable for animal feed, and the soil is to shallow for root crops. (To rocky to plough, min tillage used to preserve soil condition).
I can assure you I am a farmer, ive been actively farming for 40 years and I have travelled extensively on farm excursions, visiting among others, Wisconsin USA, Toronto CAN, New SOuth Wales AUS, South Island NZ, Ukraine and southern France.,
Where did you acquire your pracfical working knowledge?
I can assure you I am a farmer, ive been actively farming for 40 years and I have travelled extensively on farm excursions, visiting among others, Wisconsin USA, Toronto CAN, New SOuth Wales AUS, South Island NZ, Ukraine and southern France.,
Where did you acquire your pracfical working knowledge?
Forest Nymph
Forum Legend
If I have any "queries" about effects on soil I'll ask one of my professors who has a doctorate, not you.
I've read a lot of threads on this forum, some I agree with, some I disagree with , i e never felt the need to dislike a comment simply because i disagreed with it.
I would say that people that dislike a comment are perhaps not to sure of their argument and feel the need to kick out.
Ask your professor , I have obviously simplified the facts because of space, and long posts get boring, but if he disagrees with the basics of what i have said then let me know, every day is a school day, as they say
My friend has a cow called Rosie on his farm, she is around 25years old. She helps with fertilisation
I think round here we'd call that animal a pet....
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Forest Nymph
Forum Legend
You said that you have been out of school for a while so I'm not sure why you think your knowledge is current, admirable or advisable to anyone else. I dislike that you've been grazing cattle for decades and feel a need to brag about this on a vegan forum for no real reason, so I will absolutely dislike and disagree all I please with your arrogant posts bashing veganism and promoting animal agriculture with your false "facts."
I'm literally three months away from my degree and went back to college as an adult, this isn't some kid you're talking to. I've been to sustainability conferences and listened to lectures on soil. My concentration is environmental science not soils or rangeland management..but guess what? My roommate, he's a soils major.
Grass, you should also be told, is what is known as an invasive species. Aside from grassland prairie, the sort of grass you see in this nation was an idea imported from England along with the inva....settlers. That you're propping it up is so comical in a thread where you're trying to appear environmentally knowledgeable.
Please point out where I have bashed veganism? I have on more than one occasion said that I respect the decision to be a vegan, I just don't think that the false figures that are published help your cause.
I suppose all the plants that you derive your food from are native to North America , are they? Or are they invasive?
Oh, and if you think obtaining your degree is the pinnacle of your education, then it has been wasted on you. You never stop learning if you have an open mind.
Chill out.
I suppose all the plants that you derive your food from are native to North America , are they? Or are they invasive?
Oh, and if you think obtaining your degree is the pinnacle of your education, then it has been wasted on you. You never stop learning if you have an open mind.
Chill out.
Forest Nymph
Forum Legend
I won't chill out. You're trolling. I mentioned being close to graduating to illustrate to you that I know a lot more about the impacts of agriculture on environment than yourself. You may have a lot of practical knowledge of how to graze cattle, but that doesn't mean you understand the impact of cattle farming on the environment, or what farming would look like without "meat animals."
You have no idea what you're talking about and it's fairly obvious you just joined the forum to harass us with your ignorant worldview to "make us see" that eating grass fed beef is more sustainable than eating soy. There are so many studies that prove you wrong that aren't put out by vegan organizations that I am almost embarrassed for you.
Almost, because your intentions are sinister.
Sorry, but I started a thread on a public forum, I was having a civil exchange of views with other members and then you came along and took the thread off topic and eventually resorted to personal insults...
AND YOU THINK IM the TROLL.?
Forest Nymph
Forum Legend
Yes, indeed I do. Expert level five trolls are exquisitely polite in their disingenuous tactics, it helps keep their trolling alive, it's difficult to punish or ban someone who appears civil even if you know the content of their posts is garbage.
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I have grown plants on just urine (added to soil, not directly to plants) and soil mixed with wood ash. I'm currently experimenting with a Ruth Stout garden, which is growing in hay. I'm new to this type of garden and like you, expect minimal results initially from the effort. That being said, I have numerous thriving potato plants going in a relatively small space that have required very little water that isn't supplied by rain, and almost no work.
