For Vegan Dogs

[nobody]

In the case of pet foods...8 billion male 1 day old baby chicks are suffocated to death in the egg industry to be used for huge profit as pet food. A 70 billion USD dollar per year industry that is ...the pet food industry.

They are devising new ways to slaughter animals such as controlled atmosphere killing, which slowly removes the oxygen from the animals' environment and replaces it with a non-poisonous gas that puts them to sleep before they die from lack of oxygen.

Here is a hypothetical scenaro: if they adapted the technology described above for use in veterinary hospitals as a method of euthanasia (which would have the effect of producing carcasses that are not contaminated with barbiturates), and if all pets came from breeders and there were no rescue pet animals in existence, and if some entrepreneur started a cat food company that utilized the bodies of euthanized pet rabbits and dogs, obtained from veterinary clinics, would you then say the animals were bred and killed to be pet food?

These hypothetical dogs and rabbits would have been bred for the retail pet industry, not the pet food industry. And they would be euthanized to end their suffering or for the owners' convenience if they didn't want to take care of them anymore or could not afford some treatment their pet needed - not to produce meat for use in pet food. But regardless of the reasons they were bred and killed, now that there is a carcass, it is used for pet food.

In the case of those 8 billion male 1 day old baby chicks, they were bred to procure female egg laying hen chicks, and killed to get rid of them because the egg industry has no use for them. If the bodies of those chicks do not go into pet food, they will go into a landfill.

There is a difference between day old chicks who are essentially waste products of egg industry activities and day old chicks that are bred and killed to be pet food. I would not buy pet food made from the latter, or trade a life for a life. If there were no "waste product animal carcass" pet food available, I would begin raising crickets and mealworms (beetle larvae) to feed to my cats, and hope these insects cannot suffer. I would not buy cat food made from animals specifically bred to be cat food.

In your rhetoric, you usually frame everything as "you are trading a life for a life, it makes no sense, you are illogical, the lives of chickens and turkeys are just as valuable as dogs and cats, you're being specialist, etc."

If there were currently a cat food made exclusively from euthanized dogs and rabbits I would start using it just to prove to you that this has nothing to do with speciesism, because while I don't have a dog, I do have some pet rabbits. And I wonder if you would think that buying this food represents some injustice being committed against the dogs and rabbits., the way you do with chickens and turkeys.

As it is and as Vegepets states, the cat food I currently feed my cats is made, partially, from euthanized dogs and cats, with barbiturates and flea collars included, so you have to admit you are at least partially wrong in what you say, to the extent that dog and cat meat is in cat food, because these dogs and cats were clearly not bred and killed to be cat food, as you claim livestock birds are.

Finally, one thing I hear on this forum a lot (but I have never heard you say this yourself) is that it is okay to use medicine made from animals if there are no vegan alternatives. One of my cats eats prescription cat food. What vegan cat food are cats who need prescription food supposed to eat? If humans can take medicine they need made from animals, and this is considered to be vegan, then why isn't it vegan when a cat is on prescription food made from animals?

 

[nobody]

P.s.
Here is a link to a position paper released by the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, an organisation which represents over 100,000 credentialed nutrition people. The paper says that it is their position that well planned vegan diets are perfectly healthy for humans. But we don't have anything like this for vegan cat food - only anecdotal evidence of cats who have been on vegan diets for 20 years. There is also anecdotal evidence that it is perfectly healthy to raise a human baby on nothing but fruit. A lot of people have done it successfully, so the anecdotes say.

But in both cases, if you Google it, the mainstream opinion is that fruitarian babies and vegan cats are not good ideas. I do not have doctor of philosophy degree in feline biochemistry and do not feel comfortable trusting my cats' health to some fringe opinion like this, when it isn't even a subject that I can fully comprehend. Maybe I'm wrong, PetMD is wrong and Andrew Knight is right, but I don't know and don't have any way to determine who is correct.

 

[Vegan Dogs]

They are devising new ways to slaughter animals such as controlled atmosphere killing, which slowly removes the oxygen from the animals' environment and replaces it with a non-poisonous gas that puts them to sleep before they die from lack of oxygen.

Here is a hypothetical scenaro: if they adapted the technology described above for use in veterinary hospitals as a method of euthanasia (which would have the effect of producing carcasses that are not contaminated with barbiturates), and if all pets came from breeders and there were no rescue pet animals in existence, and if some entrepreneur started a cat food company that utilized the bodies of euthanized pet rabbits and dogs, obtained from veterinary clinics, would you then say the animals were bred and killed to be pet food?

These hypothetical dogs and rabbits would have been bred for the retail pet industry, not the pet food industry. And they would be euthanized to end their suffering or for the owners' convenience if they didn't want to take care of them anymore or could not afford some treatment their pet needed - not to produce meat for use in pet food. But regardless of the reasons they were bred and killed, now that there is a carcass, it is used for pet food.

In the case of those 8 billion male 1 day old baby chicks, they were bred to procure female egg laying hen chicks, and killed to get rid of them because the egg industry has no use for them. If the bodies of those chicks do not go into pet food, they will go into a landfill.

There is a difference between day old chicks who are essentially waste products of egg industry activities and day old chicks that are bred and killed to be pet food. I would not buy pet food made from the latter, or trade a life for a life. If there were no "waste product animal carcass" pet food available, I would begin raising crickets and mealworms (beetle larvae) to feed to my cats, and hope these insects cannot suffer. I would not buy cat food made from animals specifically bred to be cat food.

In your rhetoric, you usually frame everything as "you are trading a life for a life, it makes no sense, you are illogical, the lives of chickens and turkeys are just as valuable as dogs and cats, you're being specialist, etc."

If there were currently a cat food made exclusively from euthanized dogs and rabbits I would start using it just to prove to you that this has nothing to do with speciesism, because while I don't have a dog, I do have some pet rabbits. And I wonder if you would think that buying this food represents some injustice being committed against the dogs and rabbits., the way you do with chickens and turkeys.

As it is and as Vegepets states, the cat food I currently feed my cats is made, partially, from euthanized dogs and cats, with barbiturates and flea collars included, so you have to admit you are at least partially wrong in what you say, to the extent that dog and cat meat is in cat food, because these dogs and cats were clearly not bred and killed to be cat food, as you claim livestock birds are.

Finally, one thing I hear on this forum a lot (but I have never heard you say this yourself) is that it is okay to use medicine made from animals if there are no vegan alternatives. One of my cats eats prescription cat food. What vegan cat food are cats who need prescription food supposed to eat? If humans can take medicine they need made from animals, and this is considered to be vegan, then why isn't it vegan when a cat is on prescription food made from animals?

1st. Germany have failed to find a way to produce only female chicks. so the killing of billions of them by suffocation will continue

2. These chicks end up as "chicken" labelled pet food that contributes to the 70 billion USD per year pet food industry so supports deaths....if people had to pay the full price of eggs far few male chicks would die as fewer eggs would be bought. so yes buying chicken pet food is not only using and contributing to animal deaths but also using animals whose suffering was extreme so morally low level

3. rabbits like many other animals like turkeys chikens etc are specifically bred for use in pet foods. it is not just "rubbish" parts that humans cannot eat that end up in pet foods. again it supports animal killing industry. ps the figure for the uk of for example rabbits...is 400 thousand per year imported from the EU for pet food specifically. Within the uk there are chickens pigs turkeys etc bred specifically also for pet foods. it is the same everywhere. yes human designated food animal parts or dead before slaughtered for humans conveniently animals end up in pet foods...but that 20 percent everywhere average is a huge number of animals. huge. it is part and parcel of the profits earned from slaughter of animals. if pet foods did not use these animals the cost to humans of the bits they buy would mean also far less animals killed due to full prices paid only by the human designated animal parts.

4. euthanised dogs and cats have drugs that are of course toxic if put in pet foods....so it is not about canibalism but simply also would as it does contribute to the pet food industry profits. euthanised dogs and cats are legal in pet foods as i stated somewhere on this topic

5. why ? would anyone wish to feed animals to pets ? there is no sense in it...vegan healthy pet foods exist...that do not provide profits to animal based killing industries...and do not "use" the bodies of these victims.

6. i do not understand where i was confusing about stating 1 life is worth 1 life....so a chicken life is worth as much as a dog life in my view...so to kill or use 3000 chickens to feed 1 dog makes no sense fairly based on minimal harm principle which that clearly is not.

7. prescription pet foods have specific ingredients...depending on what health problem is being treated...mmost of them are mostly vegan as peas etc are low risk allergy proteins and easily digested by cats.

8. ref the medicines vaccines even issue...that is not a pet food issue so i did not discuss this...but as you bring it up in the comments i just say....if my life is in danger or at risk then yes self preservation rules...i would rather another human die than myself principle. i do not see what this has to do with pet foods....vegan pet foods exist...theya re proven....over 30 years sold...no recalls is plenty proof of their adequacy.

There are reports of studies done on cats and dogs....one paper is here

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5035952/

They do not refer to "anecdotes" about vegan cats and dogs but "studies" done. Obviously the pet foods were examined etc as were cats and dogs on them. This was their conclusion...

"a significant and growing body of population studies and case reports have indicated that cats and dogs maintained on vegetarian diets may be healthy—including those exercising at the highest levels—and, indeed, may experience a range of health benefits. "

the conclusions were vegan pet foods were fine and helped even with some health problems in cats and dogs.

www.vegepets.com website provided elsewhere in information and links to references has other references also

There has been no world national vet organisation statement AGAINST vegan pet foods....unlike all making statements AGAINST raw pet foods...so on that alone that too is proof that there is nothing wrong with feeding vegan pet foods that have been sold now for over 30 years with no recalls no scandals. Unlilke many many meat based pet food companies.

That all said...it is still the case that "animals are not ours to use" ethically...and to feed animals bodies who have not consented to their deaths to a pet animal is not ethical/vegan.

There is no need to...we morally do not have the right to. Their lives bodies are not ours.

hope all that helps.

 

[nobody]

1st. Germany have failed to find a way to produce only female chicks. so the killing of billions of them by suffocation will continue

Just so you know, the stuff I was saying about controlled atmosphere killing was only supposed to be a set up for my hypothetical scenario and unrelated to your reference to suffocation in the post excerpt I was quoting. I just wanted to refer to those chicks you were talking about later on in my post.

2. These chicks end up as "chicken" labelled pet food that contributes to the 70 billion USD per year pet food industry so supports deaths....if people had to pay the full price of eggs far few male chicks would die as fewer eggs would be bought. so yes buying chicken pet food is not only using and contributing to animal deaths but also using animals whose suffering was extreme so morally low level

Why don't people have to pay full price for eggs right now? Is it because of government subsidies or are you saying since the egg companies get the pet food money, they lower price of eggs? If so, why would they essentially give the profits from the chick carcasses to the public in the form of lower egg prices? How do you know that they aren't currently charging as high a price as the market will bear, and would merely have less profits were they no longer able to sell chicks to petfood companies? Maybe they would just operate on lower profit margins, rather than raise the price of eggs.

3. rabbits like many other animals like turkeys chikens etc are specifically bred for use in pet foods. it is not just "rubbish" parts that humans cannot eat that end up in pet foods. again it supports animal killing industry. ps the figure for the uk of for example rabbits...is 400 thousand per year imported from the EU for pet food specifically. Within the uk there are chickens pigs turkeys etc bred specifically also for pet foods. it is the same everywhere. yes human designated food animal parts or dead before slaughtered for humans conveniently animals end up in pet foods...but that 20 percent everywhere average is a huge number of animals. huge. it is part and parcel of the profits earned from slaughter of animals. if pet foods did not use these animals the cost to humans of the bits they buy would mean also far less animals killed due to full prices paid only by the human designated animal parts.

"A major ethical disadvantage of some premium brands is that unlike lesser brands, which rely heavily on byproducts of the farming and slaughter industries, some premium brands use animals killed specifically for pet food, thereby providing far greater financial support for these industries."

HOME - petfoodinnovation.info

www.vegepets.info

I only feed my cats "rubbish brands" Fancy Feast, Friskies, and Royal Canin Renal Support E primarily for that one because that is the renal diet she likes the most. I know that with dog and cat food containing rabbit, the rabbits are bred specifically for the pet food, because rabbit isn't as widely eaten as poultry. The brands I buy don't contain any rabbit. And it is relatively cheap, canned food sold in the grocery store. It's not the expensive stuff only sold in pet stores for which the chickens and tukeys are specifically bred.

As far as it being a problem that animal agribusiness profits from selling the food, well, profit in and of itself doesn't matter to me because I give my money to grocery stores with their own store brands of animal products all the time, and they are profiting from all kinds of things, so profit is profit. I mean, what matters is what you are creating a demand for, and I'm creating demand for waste products in my view, and I just don't see how any animals are being killed for it. Therefore, while humans still consume animal products, I don't see an ethical need to risk changing their diet to vegan.

As for your claim that animal agribusiness losing the market for 4D animals, male chicks, entrails, etc. will increase meat prices and thereby save animals, see my post above in reference to this in the case of egg prices. Also, if prices are going to be raised for animal products, maybe the government would just step in and subsidize them more, so that they don't raise the prices.

When you say human designated meat conveniently ends up in pet food, how? If it meets the standards set for human consumption, why would it go to a non-premium pet food company?

4. euthanised dogs and cats have drugs that are of course toxic if put in pet foods....so it is not about canibalism but simply also would as it does contribute to the pet food industry profits. euthanised dogs and cats are legal in pet foods as i stated somewhere on this topic

I'm can't understand what you are saying here. In my post, what I was saying about dogs and cats being in the food I feed my cats currently, is that, say if the food is 30% dog and cat meat, and 70% chicken and turkey meat, then you are 30% wrong when you say chickens and turkeys were bred and killed to make the food.

5. why ? would anyone wish to feed animals to pets ? there is no sense in it...vegan healthy pet foods exist...that do not provide profits to animal based killing industries...and do not "use" the bodies of these victims.

Because people say certain pets, like cats and snakes, need meat. Can snakes thrive on a vegan diet? If not, can you explain why a carnivorous reptile cannot go vegan but a carnivorous mammal can? I can't. And I'm less likely to mess around and change something I don't understand. I don't see a point in just reducing profits for corporate conglomerates, who I am giving all my money to anyway because they make all the vegan food.

6. i do not understand where i was confusing about stating 1 life is worth 1 life....so a chicken life is worth as much as a dog life in my view...so to kill or use 3000 chickens to feed 1 dog makes no sense fairly based on minimal harm principle which that clearly is not.

What was in my head was "sacrificing the life of one animal to feed another animal of equal sentience/ability to suffer" and somehow that came out as "a life for a life." I realized later that didn't make any sense but didn't want to post a P.s.s about it because I figured I would just explain it after you responded. Sorry about that.

7. prescription pet foods have specific ingredients...depending on what health problem is being treated...mmost of them are mostly vegan as peas etc are low risk allergy proteins and easily digested by cats.

I got my CKD cat (renal disease) when she was 14 and she is 18 now, and she needs low protein, low phosphorous food, and the little protein that is there needs to be "high quality". That's all I know. Since it is low protein, it isn't as palatable to cats so I have to jazz it up a little with the regular cat food I give to the other cats to get her to eat it. I'm not a veterinary chemist so I would need a commercially available, low protein and phosphorous vegan canned food, or powder to mix with plant foods I guess, if I were even going to try with that cat and I don't know if something like that is possible for a company to make.

8. ref the medicines vaccines even issue...that is not a pet food issue so i did not discuss this...but as you bring it up in the comments i just say....if my life is in danger or at risk then yes self preservation rules...i would rather another human die than myself principle. i do not see what this has to do with pet foods....vegan pet foods exist...theya re proven....over 30 years sold...no recalls is plenty proof of their adequacy.

To answer what it has to do with pet food, I compared animal product based prescription medicine for humans with animal product based prescription medicine for my cat (she is being treated for her disease with this food), and asked what the moral difference is.

There are reports of studies done on cats and dogs....one paper is here

Vegetarian versus Meat-Based Diets for Companion Animals - PMC

Many owners of companion animals are interested in vegetarian diets for their animals, as concerns increase about the consequences of animal farming, for health, animal welfare, and the environment. However, are vegetarian diets for cats and dogs ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

They do not refer to "anecdotes" about vegan cats and dogs but "studies" done. Obviously the pet foods were examined etc as were cats and dogs on them. This was their conclusion...

"a significant and growing body of population studies and case reports have indicated that cats and dogs maintained on vegetarian diets may be healthy—including those exercising at the highest levels—and, indeed, may experience a range of health benefits. "

the conclusions were vegan pet foods were fine and helped even with some health problems in cats and dogs.

Okay I'll check out this study and get back to you. Thanks.

www.vegepets.com website provided elsewhere in information and links to references has other references also

There have been a couple of different times in my life when I had a case of Evolution in an online shopping cart, but then did not purchase it out of fear of urine alkalinity of my boy. You recommend Evolution but Andrew Knight doesn't. If they have passed independent lab tests since the 2004 Gray et al. study, in which Evolution was found to be deficient in nutrients, then I wonder why he hasn't updated the "Diets not recommended" section of his website, which would be very easy to do.

There has been no world national vet organisation statement AGAINST vegan pet foods....unlike all making statements AGAINST raw pet foods...so on that alone that too is proof that there is nothing wrong with feeding vegan pet foods that have been sold now for over 30 years with no recalls no scandals. Unlilke many many meat based pet food companies.

It's a little different because raw food has become really popular and also presents a risk to humans of bacterial infection, and immediate injuries to dogs and cats, such as internal punctures or broken teeth from bones fragments.

But I think if you survey a lot of vets a large majority would say cats need meat and a vegan diet is unsafe, but I haven't read that study above yet.

That all said...it is still the case that "animals are not ours to use" ethically...and to feed animals bodies who have not consented to their deaths to a pet animal is not ethical/vegan.


There is no need to...we morally do not have the right to. Their lives bodies are not ours.


hope all that helps.

Then I wish I there was cat food I could buy made from humans who consented for their bodies to be used after their passing. Or, I wish they used control atmosphere killing at kill shelters, instead of barbiturates or gas, and then made the corpses of the dogs, cats, rabbits etc. into cat food instead of incinerating them. That would at least separate out the meat supply from animal agribusiness.

But anyway, thanks for taking the time to answer my post. It does help and I feel like I understand your position a lot better.

 

[Vegan Dogs]

Just so you know, the stuff I was saying about controlled atmosphere killing was only supposed to be a set up for my hypothetical scenario and unrelated to your reference to suffocation in the post excerpt I was quoting. I just wanted to refer to those chicks you were talking about later on in my post.



Why don't people have to pay full price for eggs right now? Is it because of government subsidies or are you saying since the egg companies get the pet food money, they lower price of eggs? If so, why would they essentially give the profits from the chick carcasses to the public in the form of lower egg prices? How do you know that they aren't currently charging as high a price as the market will bear, and would merely have less profits were they no longer able to sell chicks to petfood companies? Maybe they would just operate on lower profit margins, rather than raise the price of eggs.




"A major ethical disadvantage of some premium brands is that unlike lesser brands, which rely heavily on byproducts of the farming and slaughter industries, some premium brands use animals killed specifically for pet food, thereby providing far greater financial support for these industries."

HOME - petfoodinnovation.info

www.vegepets.info

I only feed my cats "rubbish brands" Fancy Feast, Friskies, and Royal Canin Renal Support E primarily for that one because that is the renal diet she likes the most. I know that with dog and cat food containing rabbit, the rabbits are bred specifically for the pet food, because rabbit isn't as widely eaten as poultry. The brands I buy don't contain any rabbit. And it is relatively cheap, canned food sold in the grocery store. It's not the expensive stuff only sold in pet stores for which the chickens and tukeys are specifically bred.

As far as it being a problem that animal agribusiness profits from selling the food, well, profit in and of itself doesn't matter to me because I give my money to grocery stores with their own store brands of animal products all the time, and they are profiting from all kinds of things, so profit is profit. I mean, what matters is what you are creating a demand for, and I'm creating demand for waste products in my view, and I just don't see how any animals are being killed for it. Therefore, while humans still consume animal products, I don't see an ethical need to risk changing their diet to vegan.

As for your claim that animal agribusiness losing the market for 4D animals, male chicks, entrails, etc. will increase meat prices and thereby save animals, see my post above in reference to this in the case of egg prices. Also, if prices are going to be raised for animal products, maybe the government would just step in and subsidize them more, so that they don't raise the prices.

When you say human designated meat conveniently ends up in pet food, how? If it meets the standards set for human consumption, why would it go to a non-premium pet food company?



I'm can't understand what you are saying here. In my post, what I was saying about dogs and cats being in the food I feed my cats currently, is that, say if the food is 30% dog and cat meat, and 70% chicken and turkey meat, then you are 30% wrong when you say chickens and turkeys were bred and killed to make the food.




Because people say certain pets, like cats and snakes, need meat. Can snakes thrive on a vegan diet? If not, can you explain why a carnivorous reptile cannot go vegan but a carnivorous mammal can? I can't. And I'm less likely to mess around and change something I don't understand. I don't see a point in just reducing profits for corporate conglomerates, who I am giving all my money to anyway because they make all the vegan food.



What was in my head was "sacrificing the life of one animal to feed another animal of equal sentience/ability to suffer" and somehow that came out as "a life for a life." I realized later that didn't make any sense but didn't want to post a P.s.s about it because I figured I would just explain it after you responded. Sorry about that.



I got my CKD cat (renal disease) when she was 14 and she is 18 now, and she needs low protein, low phosphorous food, and the little protein that is there needs to be "high quality". That's all I know. Since it is low protein, it isn't as palatable to cats so I have to jazz it up a little with the regular cat food I give to the other cats to get her to eat it. I'm not a veterinary chemist so I would need a commercially available, low protein and phosphorous vegan canned food, or powder to mix with plant foods I guess, if I were even going to try with that cat and I don't know if something like that is possible for a company to make.



To answer what it has to do with pet food, I compared animal product based prescription medicine for humans with animal product based prescription medicine for my cat (she is being treated for her disease with this food), and asked what the moral difference is.



Okay I'll check out this study and get back to you. Thanks.



There have been a couple of different times in my life when I had a case of Evolution in an online shopping cart, but then did not purchase it out of fear of urine alkalinity of my boy. You recommend Evolution but Andrew Knight doesn't. If they have passed independent lab tests since the 2004 Gray et al. study, in which Evolution was found to be deficient in nutrients, then I wonder why he hasn't updated the "Diets not recommended" section of his website, which would be very easy to do.



It's a little different because raw food has become really popular and also presents a risk to humans of bacterial infection, and immediate injuries to dogs and cats, such as internal punctures or broken teeth from bones fragments.

But I think if you survey a lot of vets a large majority would say cats need meat and a vegan diet is unsafe, but I haven't read that study above yet.



Then I wish I there was cat food I could buy made from humans who consented for their bodies to be used after their passing. Or, I wish they used control atmosphere killing at kill shelters, instead of barbiturates or gas, and then made the corpses of the dogs, cats, rabbits etc. into cat food instead of incinerating them. That would at least separate out the meat supply from animal agribusiness.

But anyway, thanks for taking the time to answer my post. It does help and I feel like I understand your position a lot better.

1. Profits from billions of suffocated to death male baby chicks do support animal agriculture. It is money. Subsides of taxes are a separate issue but also money. The government adding more money would be a possibility but that does not excuse paying for the deaths to support the industry nor is it definate so not an argument to not support the death industry. Either we participate in it or we do not is simple.

2. without wishing to "blame" but wishing to state the obvious...your cat kidney disease was probably caused largely by what you fed her. 78% of wild lions etc get kidney diseases on their raw flesh diets. The most "shitty" or low quality the food...the greater the kidneys also have to work logically to expell toxins and crap. That and the age of the cat obviously. Towards the end of our lives we will get diseases that kill us off...end of organs working age issue.

3. the issue of snakes versus cats going vegan is simply that the nutrients needed for cats have been provided in commercial pet foods as loads of people own cats not snakes. it is possible to create such foods but only if profitable so clear that is not needed.

 

[Vegan Dogs]

ps ref your current aged cat. Without being as stated a vet....a vegan peas based food would be actually gentler on the kidneys. The cat is it seems at 18 possibly in the last days of life anyway as mentioned. However for sure peas are the gentlest on kidneys proteins compared to animal based proteins that cause the kidneys to work more to get rid of toxins.

 

[nobody]

2. without wishing to "blame" but wishing to state the obvious...your cat kidney disease was probably caused largely by what you fed her. 78% of wild lions etc get kidney diseases on their raw flesh diets. The most "shitty" or low quality the food...the greater the kidneys also have to work logically to expell toxins and crap. That and the age of the cat obviously. Towards the end of our lives we will get diseases that kill us off...end of organs working age issue.

ps ref your current aged cat. Without being as stated a vet....a vegan peas based food would be actually gentler on the kidneys. The cat is it seems at 18 possibly in the last days of life anyway as mentioned. However for sure peas are the gentlest on kidneys proteins compared to animal based proteins that cause the kidneys to work more to get rid of toxins.

I didn't get her until she was 14. For the first 14 years of her life she was overweight and allowed to graze all day on kibble with maize as the first ingredient, just like Ami. It's called Meow Mix. She has been eating only canned food 3 times a day since I got her in 2015.

Since my last post I have read the Andrew Knight paper you posted and also read the below article and listened to the two podcasts below and I don't think I'm going to be trying this. Are you familiar with (retired) vegan veterinarian Jean Hofve's arguments against vegan/vegetarian cat food?

Vegetarian Cats? | Little Big Cat - Dr. Jean Hofve

Updated March 6, 2024 There are several companies and websites that promote vegetarian (no meat or fish) or even vegan (no animal products at all) diets for cats. These products appeal to people who have chosen a vegetarian or vegan lifestyle for ethical reasons, and want to apply the same...

littlebigcat.com

Cats: Can they be vegan? With vets Lorelei Wakefield, Andrew Knight, and Jean Hofve; and special guest Erin Red - The Vegan Option

Three experienced veterinarians with experience of vegan cats say whether and why they think cats can thrive on a vegan diet. Jean Hovfe argues - out of bitter experience - that cats need meet. Andrew Knight advocates a vegan diet for cats - if you do it right. Only Lorelei Wakefield has...

theveganoption.org

Cats: Ethics. With Erin Red, Evolution Diet’s Eric Weisman, and vets Lorelei Wakefield, Andrew Knight, and Jean Hofve - The Vegan Option

Erin Red joins Ian McDonald as they investigate what vegans should feed cats, respond to listener comments, and discuss the ethical conflict between our cats and the animals they'd very much like to eat. Ian McDonald interviews Eric Weisman, the controversial boss of Evolution Diet pet food.

theveganoption.org

 

[nobody]

ps ref your current aged cat. Without being as stated a vet....a vegan peas based food would be actually gentler on the kidneys. The cat is it seems at 18 possibly in the last days of life anyway as mentioned. However for sure peas are the gentlest on kidneys proteins compared to animal based proteins that cause the kidneys to work more to get rid of toxins.

It's too much carbs.

Per Serving	% Daily Value*
Peas Nutrition Facts
Serving Size 1/2 cup frozen, cooked without added salt (80 g)
Calories 62
Calories from Fat 1.8
Total Fat 0.2g	0%
Saturated Fat 0g	0%
Polyunsaturated Fat 0.1g
Monounsaturated Fat 0g
Cholesterol 0mg	0%
Sodium 57mg	2%
Potassium 88mg	3%
Carbohydrates 11g	3%
Dietary Fiber 4.4g	18%
Sugars 4.1g
Protein 2.8g

Peas Nutrition Facts and Health Benefits

One-half cup of peas has 62 calories, 4g of protein, 11g of carbohydrates, and 0.2g of fat. Peas nutrition includes vitamin K, fiber, and zinc.

www.verywellfit.com

 

[nobody]

I was wondering, if they come out with cultured meat cat food grown from cells of mice, insects, small birds and lizards, would you use it?

 

[Vegan Dogs]

I was wondering, if they come out with cultured meat cat food grown from cells of mice, insects, small birds and lizards, would you use it?

absolutely not. it is obviously not necessary. all flesh is is processed plants. vegan plant based pet foods are fine.

 

[Vegan Dogs]

I have read and listened to over 15 world experts on dog and cat nutrition supporting vegan pet foods.

I have seen evidence of 20 year old healthy vegan fed cats. Dogs also thrive on vegan pet foods bramble and her companions lived long healthy lives.

There is no need to read anti crap ...the experts read are highly qualified the evidence is there so it is a no brainer.

Dr Pitcairn is one that has written a book with recipes additionally for remedies etc to sick dogs and cats....all the remedies are vegan when i read in health dog and cat forums other than medicines ones.

It is simply not vegan to breed and kill animals or use them. The number of lives involved are not ethical or fair so it is a no brainer for me. I am vegan.

 

[nobody]

I have read and listened to over 15 world experts on dog and cat nutrition supporting vegan pet foods.


I have seen evidence of 20 year old healthy vegan fed cats. Dogs also thrive on vegan pet foods bramble and her companions lived long healthy lives.


There is no need to read anti crap ...the experts read are highly qualified the evidence is there so it is a no brainer.


Dr Pitcairn is one that has written a book with recipes additionally for remedies etc to sick dogs and cats....all the remedies are vegan when i read in health dog and cat forums other than medicines ones.


It is simply not vegan to breed and kill animals or use them. The number of lives involved are not ethical or fair so it is a no brainer for me. I am vegan.

I'm curious about the names of the 15. Is there a list somewhere online?

In the one of the podcasts I posted above, Andrew Knight recommends using a special glass bead litter that let's the urine fall to the bottom of the litter box where it can be collected to check the pH. When you are going to test urine you replace the regular litter with this litter. First, you replace the litter once per week and check the pH for 4 weeks, while still on meat food, to get a baseline. Then, you begin to gradually replace the meat food with the new food for a period of time. This is important to allow the intestinal flora time to adjust to the new food.

Once the cat is fully on vegan food, you continue replacing the litter 1x per week for a while to monitor for signs of urine alkalisation and if it is stable, you then check the pH 1x per month for the life of the cat. I know that you know that but I'm just saying it for the benefit of anyone who is going to try this. If you're going to do it, very important to check the pH monthly.

Also, Andrew Knight said in the podcast that non-premium food can be more ethical than premium, in regards to the use of waste parts.

 

[Vegan Dogs]

I'm curious about the names of the 15. Is there a list somewhere online?

In the one of the podcasts I posted above, Andrew Knight recommends using a special glass bead litter that let's the urine fall to the bottom of the litter box where it can be collected to check the pH. When you are going to test urine you replace the regular litter with this litter. First, you replace the litter once per week and check the pH for 4 weeks, while still on meat food, to get a baseline. Then, you begin to gradually replace the meat food with the new food for a period of time. This is important to allow the intestinal flora time to adjust to the new food.

Once the cat is fully on vegan food, you continue replacing the litter 1x per week for a while to monitor for signs of urine alkalisation and if it is stable, you then check the pH 1x per month for the life of the cat. I know that you know that but I'm just saying it for the benefit of anyone who is going to try this. If you're going to do it, very important to check the pH monthly.

Also, Andrew Knight said in the podcast that non-premium food can be more ethical than premium, in regards to the use of waste parts.

i have posted in this group a link to a talks on vegan pet foods with their names.

i have never tested the urine of my vegan fed cat in 2 years.

i had a non vegan fed cat who got blood so crystals in her urine in the past.

I do not believe Andrew Knight said that non vegan food was more ethical than vegan food i suggest you misheard.

Nor did i mix dead animal parts with vegan cat food...i got a kitten age 12 weeks put vegan food in her dish end of matter.

It is not cannot be as it uses animals.

I do not know why you carry on this discussion with me...you have no intention of feeding your aged cat vegan so rather pointless i suggest.

You have directed me to read anti vegan cat food animal killing promoters that i did not ask for...this is a vegan forum...i have no interest in reading about killing animals or using them here.

edit...here is a link to the names. Now pls do as you please as i say to anyone after extensive information provided to help. I am i repeat not interested in killing animals. I have read plenty to support healthy vegan diets for cats dogs and ferrets. plenty people have long lived vegan cats dogs ferrets. end of the matter for me...nutrients are what any animal needs to thrive. meat is not a scientific word...nutrients is.

http://www.vegan-information.com/Vegan_Plant_Powered_Veggie_Food_Dogs_Petfood_Experts_Summit.htm

I have provided plenty references to vegan pet foods. If someone wished to they could easily do home made with nutritionist advice for any medical issues using vegecat powder supplements using Compassion Circle recipes of which there are many.

 

[nobody]

i have never tested the urine of my vegan fed cat in 2 years.

One thing is clear, Andrew Knight would not approve of what you are doing, as evidenced by what he says from 19:00 to 20:32 in the below podcast and also here:

HOME - petfoodinnovation.info

www.vegepets.info

https://soundcloud.com/veganoption%2Fcats-can-they-be-vegan-lorelei-wakefield-andrew-knight

I do not believe Andrew Knight said that non vegan food was more ethical than vegan food i suggest you misheard.

I never said he said that, please reread what I wrote. Here are his exact words at 22:57 in the second podcast:

"In a sense these poorer quality products that do have a high proportion of byproducts and slaughterhouse wastes in them are perhaps more ethical than premium pet food brands where...such as some organic brands, where animals are being killed just for...specifically to be made into pet food."

https://soundcloud.com/veganoption%2Fcats-ethics-evolution-diet-erin-red-eric-weisman-lorelei-wakefield

You have directed me to read anti vegan cat food animal killing promoters that i did not ask for...this is a vegan forum...i have no interest in reading about killing animals or using them here.

I directed you to read something written by a vegan vet and listen to a vegan podcast where every person speaking is a vegan.

 

[Vegan Dogs]

One thing is clear, Andrew Knight would not approve of what you are doing, as evidenced by what he says from 19:00 to 20:32 in the below podcast and also here:

HOME - petfoodinnovation.info

www.vegepets.info

https://soundcloud.com/veganoption%2Fcats-can-they-be-vegan-lorelei-wakefield-andrew-knight

I never said he said that, please reread what I wrote. Here are his exact words at 22:57 in the second podcast:

"In a sense these poorer quality products that do have a high proportion of byproducts and slaughterhouse wastes in them are perhaps more ethical than premium pet food brands where...such as some organic brands, where animals are being killed just for...specifically to be made into pet food."

https://soundcloud.com/veganoption%2Fcats-ethics-evolution-diet-erin-red-eric-weisman-lorelei-wakefield

I directed you to read something written by a vegan vet and listen to a vegan podcast where every person speaking is a vegan.

right so Andrew Knight wasn't comparing ethics of vegan pet food to animal pet food but different types of animal pet foods.

Which is of no interest to a vegan.

He is in his job involved in assessing "treatment" of farm animals generally so obviously has views on that

As a vegan however those animal products are of zero interest to a vegan so not relevant to the issue of cat food.

As to "what" he would not approve of you did not state...is that so difficult ? am i to guess ? is it the transitioning matter ? that is over with....i put vegan food in front of a 12 week old rescue kitten she ate it no need to buy animal based pet food.

If on about urine tests...guessing again as you did not say....that is my decision ...he recommends them but as i said my non vegan cat got blood in urine crystals. i see her litter every day so would notice anything like that and deal with it immediately....pea soup is a 1 day remedy for too alkaline urine.

I have urine strips somewhere but never used them to date. Maybe i will sometime when i refind them.

It is not very important to me.

I take care of dogs turkeys cat. i have health problems with my turkeys constantly ....i do not have time to look for problems that are not there in the cat.

ps you said you directed me to some "anti vegan pet feeding" talker...

that you say now is a vegan themselves

I am not interested !

why would i be ?

I am vegan...i need and listen to vegan expert vets not anti vegan ones lol logical

there is no way i would feed my cat or dogs animals so it is a waste of time to listen to the "anti vegan pet food" views of one more person...i have listened read many of them already one more is not of importance. I have listened to the pro vegan pet food experts of which there are plenty. that is plenty enough. I like you am no scientist but can see the scientific explanations made simple for us with references to the studies

I have a healthy vegan cat and have seen 20 year old and other healthy vegan cats in plenty numbers.

There have been no recalls of any vegan pet foods...which if cats and or dogs were sick or dead due to them there would have been in the 30 and more years they have been sold. end of matter.

I do not understand why you keep on about this.

I provided links to many people that you cannot have time to have read all it took me weeks.

You just keep pointing out vague suggestions as to why you do not think carbs vaguely would not be good for your aged cat...i am not seeking to argue about that...i just said a nutritionist could with compassion circle find the right ingredients to suit the cat...but i am not obsessed by the matter plenty people are afraid to feed vegan think there is something "magical" in dead animal parts so they carry on

I am not seeking advice on how to NOT feed my cat vegan lol...not in a million years would i do that so it is just scare mongering me to try direct me to some stated by you "anti vegan pet feeding" person of which there are many i listened and read those that were pro

the pet foods have never been recalled that is enough proof for me or anyone. the same cannot be said of many many brands of even prescription hills the latest that killed cats and dogs on badly formulated pet foods they sold




Cats and dogs are living healthily vegan....so some one else is going to say they should not be....so what ? they are is the fact....mine are others are....why would i want to listen to ******** that says kill 3000 chickens to feed 1 cat ?

 

[Vegan Dogs]

ps. i spend a great deal of time on vegan cats facebook groups.

Some "transitioned" others did not.

As i said I did not. i got a 12 week old feral born kitten...put vegan food in front of her that she ate at once and never looked back.

Some do the urine tests yes. Not me as i said.

A few had urine slightly high occasionally...but in fact stress causes this and a huge number of non vegan cats get this problem around xmas periods in particular when visitors to their territory in their homes upsets them.

So one cannot say it is the "diet" that causes that issue always. stress is a major contributor.

If the cat owner is stressed for whatever reason that also affects cats too.

There really is nothing to it...putting balanced food in a dish...that the animal eats.

Any health issues are often visible but not just due to diets of course in cats genetics play a huge part as in all things

If the cat were not absorbing the nutrients she would lose weight and signs like that very obvious which is on any food.

allergies etc are caused by animal products the most in fact regarding diet but only 20 percent of allergies are food related in cats

My turkeys are more fussy about changes in their food than my cat or dogs. i just let them starve figuratively speaking i have no time for fussy eaters.

Their health problems are great....gasp and breath with great difficulty it is water on the lungs standard in farm bred turkeys they are not meant to live natural normal lives cannot fly as natural wild turkeys can and suffer arthritis in their legs also and hearts are very weak i lost one age 1 year old after a full year of watching her suffer

so i have no time or interest in fussy imaginary issues with my cat or dogs. they are fine which my turkeys sure are not.

 

[Vegan Dogs]

put it this way....having suffering farm bred turkeys in my face every day concentrates the mind.

If i had to...i would kill them to feed my cat ?

or my dogs ?

no.

It is a matter of numbers of lives.

I would choose based on numbers of lives involved.

I got dumped some unwanted dog some time ago...thought because i was vegan i would deal with it

my decision was this....either the dog gets rehomed in 1 week to a vegan feeding home or it dies.

That dog if not fed vegan would cause the deaths of 3000 chickens over its lifetime is the reason.

there is a limit to how many pets anyone keeps...2 dogs 1 cat and 4 turkeys is the limit for me.

we all let dogs cats die every day....those that are not rescued in shelters...so it is no different just more in our faces when we have to do it ourselves.

however the turkeys or others i do not own will not die for my cat or my dogs

they do not need their lives....and if they did...i would choose based on numbers of lives

so it would not be the turkeys that died.

 

[Vegan Dogs]

pantheism...was the latest discussion i got into by some introduction to that group ...i found the philosophy very vague

basically it says....all "life" has value...plants are "alive" and "sentience" is not a criteria for attributing value to life hierachically

ok ok

so for some reason they are hostile to "veganism"

i got attacked told to "do something worthwhile with my life" lol that i was causing "deaths" anyway and "death is part of life"

ok ok

yes we cause deaths of plants animals every day just by existing...going about our daily lives.

it is mostly unintentional not deliberate however is my view

so i explained that in terms of "numbers" of plants killed by a vegan based diet it caused 1000's more plant deaths to process them via animal flesh....destroyed forests massively to grow the plants that were destroyed to feed the animals that also were then destroyed

they had problems accepting this

kept saying that plants water air mattered as much as sentient beings.

ok ok but surely....minimal harm then should be a logical principle to adopt a lifestyle that does minimal deliberate harm ?

which they could not argue against but again just dismissed veganism as futile and not a sound way to live


so there is no point arguing with people who just wish to live in "spiritual" spheres of "respect for life" accepting "death of lives" as part of life and have no wish for "minimal harm"

to my mind...they accept killing and deaths they cause deliberately on the basis that death is part of life

yet....lol....they got very wound up about "vegan cats" lol and said it was "cruel" and "unnatural" etc

so i replied to them....on that subject

why be bothered about a cat life ? if it lives or dies ? they accept death is ok so why fuss over a pet cat life ?

people cannot see their own illogic is my point

i understand their view....but in line with their views say well what people feed a cat is irrelevant to a pantheist as whether it lives or dies is not of importance to them in their philosphy or way of thinking....carry on respecting trees....is what they like to do lol

which get cut down more to grow animal feed for pet cat foods lol

 

[nobody]

I got dumped some unwanted dog some time ago...thought because i was vegan i would deal with it

my decision was this....either the dog gets rehomed in 1 week to a vegan feeding home or it dies.

That dog if not fed vegan would cause the deaths of 3000 chickens over its lifetime is the reason.

This is wrong for non-premium brands of cat food. Why do you relentlessly speak as though all cat food contains animals specifically bred and killed to be cat food when it isn't true?

Andrew Knight:
"In a sense these poorer quality products that do have a high proportion of byproducts and slaughterhouse wastes in them are perhaps more ethical than premium pet food brands where...such as some organic brands, where animals are being killed just for...specifically to be made into pet food."

 

[nobody]

In the last post I meant non-,premium dog or cat food, not just cat food.