Individual guilt for collective acts

[Mischief]

Oskar Groening, a 94 year old former member of the SS, is currently on trial in Germany for complicity in 300,000 deaths. He was an accountant by training, and was stationed for a while at Auschwitz, where he was responsible for sorting and accounting for the prisoners' valuables. He repeatedly asked for a transfer to a combat unit because he was sickened by what was being done at Auschwitz.

Forty years later, he "outed" himself when he began disputing with Holocaust deniers, going public with what he had seen.

This article talks about his case in the context of individual guilt for collective acts. Oskar Groening and our own guilt for crimes committed collectively I think the topic is interesting and worth discussing, not just in the context of the Holocaust, but in a broader sense, and also specifically in the context of being an ethical veg*n. (For example, can a vegan or ethical vegetarian work for a company that does animal testing? a grocery store? a non-vegan restaurant?) Where do we, where should we, draw the line for ourselves?

 

[Second Summer]

It's difficult to fathom the full extent of the cruelty of the Nazi policies towards their victims. Still, based on what you have said, I hope the courts show leniency against Groening, who was not actively part of the actual killing or mistreatment, and clearly did not support it. His job as an accountant may even have helped document the Nazi crimes.

 

[ledboots]

Oskar Groening, a 94 year old former member of the SS, is currently on trial in Germany for complicity in 300,000 deaths. He was an accountant by training, and was stationed for a while at Auschwitz, where he was responsible for sorting and accounting for the prisoners' valuables. He repeatedly asked for a transfer to a combat unit because he was sickened by what was being done at Auschwitz.

Forty years later, he "outed" himself when he began disputing with Holocaust deniers, going public with what he had seen.

This article talks about his case in the context of individual guilt for collective acts. Oskar Groening and our own guilt for crimes committed collectively I think the topic is interesting and worth discussing, not just in the context of the Holocaust, but in a broader sense, and also specifically in the context of being an ethical veg*n. (For example, can a vegan or ethical vegetarian work for a company that does animal testing? a grocery store? a non-vegan restaurant?) Where do we, where should we, draw the line for ourselves?

I feel sorry for him because he is now so old, but picturing him sorting the belongings of thousands of murdered people is a different kind of sorrow.

This paragraph I agree with:

"The crimes committed at Auschwitz were committed collectively. Auschwitz couldn’t have operated without the cooperation of those who worked there. Accountants as well as those directly involved in killing were necessary for its smooth operation. Without a conception of collective guilt that embraces all of those who contributed, it is impossible to account for the wrong done."

Like wearing leather shoes or eating jello because they are just "by-products" of a killing machine would make me feel complicit in the deaths of the animals.

 

[beancounter]

Holocaust 'hero' Sir Nicholas Winton dies aged 106 - BBC News

 

[Mischief]

Holocaust 'hero' Sir Nicholas Winton dies aged 106 - BBC News

Yes, I posted about him in the obituary thread. I don 't know why they put the word "hero" in quotation marks.

 

[Mischief]

Like wearing leather shoes or eating jello because they are just "by-products" of a killing machine would make me feel complicit in the deaths of the animals.

That's an easy issue for an ethical veg*n.

However, to what extent are we complicit if we (a) work for a business that profits, at least in part, from animal deaths, (b)contribute to the profits of a business that profits from animal deaths, or (c) do any of the myriad of things we do daily that basically consist of standing by and watching what is done to animals (i.e., attending barbeques and nonvegan dinners, etc.)?

 

[Blobbenstein]

I don 't know why they put the word "hero" in quotation marks.

it's just more accurate and impartial reporting. People call him a hero, so the BBC put it in as a quote.

 

[Mischief]

it's just more accurate and impartial reporting. People call him a hero, so the BBC put it in as a quote.

Ah, O.K.

 

[Blobbenstein]

However, to what extent are we complicit if we (a) work for a business that profits, at least in part, from animal deaths, (b)contribute to the profits of a business that profits from animal deaths, or (c) do any of the myriad of things we do daily that basically consist of standing by and watching what is done to animals (i.e., attending barbeques and nonvegan dinners, etc.)?

I have wondered what I would feel like if I were on an alien planet and kept to become meat. How would I feel about a non-human-meat-eater, that was complicit in that society.

 

[Blobbenstein]

I have wondered what I would feel like if I were on an alien planet and kept to become meat. How would I feel about a non-human-meat-eater, that was complicit in that society.

I guess I would be grateful that they didn't eat human meat, themselves.

 

[Mischief]

I guess I would be grateful that they didn't eat human meat, themselves.

I think we all (with so very, very, few exceptions) are colored in shades of gray.

 

[Joe]

Many vegetarians find employment as cooks or other work in food service industries. It would be counterproductive to exclude these sources of employment.

 

[ledboots]

I think we all (with so very, very, few exceptions) are colored in shades of gray.

This.

 

[ledboots]

Many vegetarians find employment as cooks or other work in food service industries. It would be counterproductive to exclude these sources of employment.

And being a nurse is part of who I am. I guess I hope I help more than I hurt...

 

[Moll Flanders]

However, to what extent are we complicit if we (a) work for a business that profits, at least in part, from animal deaths, (b)contribute to the profits of a business that profits from animal deaths, or (c) do any of the myriad of things we do daily that basically consist of standing by and watching what is done to animals (i.e., attending barbeques and nonvegan dinners, etc.)?

I know I give money to many organisations that have products that contain animals and carry out animal testing. If you use supermarkets, retail stores, banks and have investments and pensions then you are involved.

I think it would be fairly impossible to avoid being involved with companies that harm animals in some way unless you live in a shack, forage and live off the land.

Most of my jobs have been in charity work which seems ethical on the surface (none of the charities I've worked for used direct animal testing) but I know some of them had donors from unethical companies. I remember one place I worked had a huge donation from a well known pharmaceutical company that carried out a lot of animal testing and research.