I think supplements are better than animal cruelty
Is my diet moral?
- Thread starter skhande2
- Start date
Whats not better is telling myself that a tiger can hunt for his pleasure and yet I'm stuck to eating supplement for essential nutrients.
David3, this is what I'm talking about. The site link looks like those erectile dysfunction or 6 pack miracle scam ads. The bottle design doesn't look any better. Though its possible to fake genuinity, it doesn't make sense to fake non-genuinity. (keep up with me, I just made those words up hehe) Even if a product doesn't have funding, I've seen a genuine product will have genuine design. That you can usually connect with the buyer using mirror neurons. Meaning, if you ask yourself, what kinda mentality you would be in to make a design like that, you will understand the level of genuinity of the producer.
David3, this is what I'm talking about. The site link looks like those erectile dysfunction or 6 pack miracle scam ads. The bottle design doesn't look any better. Though its possible to fake genuinity, it doesn't make sense to fake non-genuinity. (keep up with me, I just made those words up hehe) Even if a product doesn't have funding, I've seen a genuine product will have genuine design. That you can usually connect with the buyer using mirror neurons. Meaning, if you ask yourself, what kinda mentality you would be in to make a design like that, you will understand the level of genuinity of the producer.
Vegans look to avoid harming animals as much as possible, people have been vegan for years and are healthy on it. Some people won’t ever go vegan, I believe you are one of them. It’s less annoying when people are at least honest about it and don’t try to hide behind a lame excuse or try to convince vegans that they’re wrong.
Which does not contradict the previously mentioned. Besides he is not mentioning any study to corroborate that statement.
Agreed it's hard to take excessive amounts of vitamins and minerals from food but it's not difficult to exaggerate when one is taking supplements, in particular self medicating. Besides evidence seems to show that less is better than too much. For instance a lot of people are obsessed with omega-3 yet Vegsource mentions studies that show prostate cancer being associated with higher levels of omega-3.
The benefits of calories restriction are already well known but they also mention nutrients restriction. They seem to exaggerate a bit, and it may be dangerous to take it to extremes. It also may change with age and lifestyle. The traditional societies they mention that lived longer and had nutrient restrictions also had different lifestyles. Don't know for instance how much sexual activity may deplete a person of nutrients, untill the 60's both in tradition and conventional medicine it was considered to do so and to make males dumber. Nutritious foods, usually animal products, like eggs, dairy and honey were often recommended for people who were very sexually active. But since then it seems that the issue became something of a tabu, so don't know how much of this is validated by science.
Last edited:
I truly believe you're fooling yourself
Why are you obsessed with supplements? The only thing you won't get on a plant based diet is B12.
Thats kinda pessimistic. Everyone changes, for some the change is so slow, they die before they do. I'm here willing to challenge my belief by posting. This shows I'm willing to put effort to learn. For you to assume I'm hopeless just shows you are afraid of changing yours maybe through a discussion?
There is substantial evidence that lack of nutrients causes malfunctions in the body. By only measuring the body via its longevity is taking quantity, not quality of life into account. You can't recycle nutrients that aren't even present in potato.
I truly believe you're fooling yourself
Why are you obsessed with supplements? The only thing you won't get on a plant based diet is B12.
I already have tension headaches, backaches, sciatica, calf spasms...the point is...there are always 100 things going wrong in our body. So we try to live in harmony with natural sense to make sure we can be healthiest. By constantly eating something that doesn't agree with my body, I dont want to add another unexplained element to guess if this is whats causing this. I grew up eating Homeopathy meds coz my mom believed in them and later realized it was all quakery and some of them were really bad for me and made my health much worse.
Instead of trying to live a perfect life, we also have to make focus on consequential changes. There are many vegans that are against animal testing. But I would always prefer a med to go through a round of animal testing before they are applied to humans. It is just basic survival. So yes, as a species on this planet, we should stop global warming and deforestation to help everyone else live but at the same time, we deserve a little piece of the pie. There are many carnivorous animals eating meat all the time. It shouldn't make a difference to the big picture if we only add drinking milking.
David3
Forum Legend
Hi skhande2,
A Registered Dietitian (RD) can help you to plan a vegan diet that is satisfying, nutritionally-complete, and that addresses your health issues. A Registered Dietitian is certainly not a quack - they are required to have university degrees in dietetics, plus certification testing, internship, and career-long continuing education. An RD will work with you and your physician.
In the United States, you can find a local Registered Dietitian through the website of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics: Eatright.org - Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics . Just click on the red "Find An Expert" button in the upper-right portion of that webpage.
I see no need to further belabor any points.
.
A Registered Dietitian (RD) can help you to plan a vegan diet that is satisfying, nutritionally-complete, and that addresses your health issues. A Registered Dietitian is certainly not a quack - they are required to have university degrees in dietetics, plus certification testing, internship, and career-long continuing education. An RD will work with you and your physician.
In the United States, you can find a local Registered Dietitian through the website of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics: Eatright.org - Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics . Just click on the red "Find An Expert" button in the upper-right portion of that webpage.
I see no need to further belabor any points.
.
Sciatica is an inflammatory problem that can be agravated by certain foods including dairy as saturated fat increases inflamation.
The nutrients recycling and restriction theory definitely raises some doubts the way it is presented in the video. Nevertheless the idea that a person doesn't need to become obsessed trying to meet RDA or consuming stuff that may have much more detrimental effects than one being short on some nutrient is valid and makes sense. Like you say knowing one's body and how food interacts with it may lead to better quality of life than just trying to meet general dietary guidelines.
Besides obsession with micronutrients seems to often put people on the wrong trail. Like asking what one is missing when the problem is what one is taking, or believing the micronutrient will be a magic pill for something that requires other elements like exercise or a more balanced diet. Not saying it should be completely neglected though.
Last edited:
How can a dietician help me plan a vegan diet when I dont like any of the supplements? I'm looking at other options though..like this: Scientists Are Figuring Out How to Get Astronauts to Eat Their Own Poop (our poop actually has vitamin b12 similar to how animal's gut bacteria are able to develop one)...Once they make some advancement to turn our poop edible..maybe
I've also heard soil sometimes have it and I've heard of edible soil but cannot find any reliable source to attain it. I also wonder if its possible to culture it at home. I dont like the idea of eating pure vitamin b12. If I can culture it like yogurt, it will develop with fiber and I think then I can use my instincts to judge whether to eat it or not.
There is also some research into meat developed in lab so innocent lives aren't taken but that is not ready for market. Maybe this technological breakthrough, if without sideeffect, can easily change the landscape of everyone's diet?!
Faki, I noticed you are vegetarian too. Do you notice a extremism vibe from socializing with vegans like if we can't part on agree to disagree, if they can't convince me, they always part on the vibe, "what an idiot"? This reminds me of some polarized political individuals who can't just keep their personal emotions out and show a level of humility when discussing.
Lou
Forum Legend
All of my first responses are rude. so let's just move on....
To the best of my knowledge that we can get B12 from eating soil or unwashed veggies is a myth. yes, b12 producing bacteria live in the soil and on roots. That how they end up in cows. but again as far as I know you can't just eat dirt for B12.
According to Mic the Vegan, you can get B12 "naturally" from Duckweed
Vitamin B12
Comments on daily B-12 vitamin --> # of mcgs level. Some say if you eat the right foods, you don't need it. I've heard 1000mcg per day for vegans / vegetarians is common. Costco sells 5000mcg capsules!! I recognize some folks with a B-12 shortage need more. Assume a healthy person w/no...
www.veganforum.org
Pharmaceuticals grow vats of bacteria where they then harvest B12. in a sense this is not so different from the process of creating yeast for bread or beer. In a sense, it is no less natural than making beer or wine.
David3
Forum Legend
.
The only supplement that you truly, truly need is vitamin B12 (assuming that you can get regular sun exposure on your skin, for vitamin D production).
The recommended dose of vitamin B12 is extremely small - perhaps 2000 micrograms (2 milligrams) per week. If you're not willing to make this small concession (and instead would prefer to eat dirt), then that's your decision.
A Registered Dietitian is well-qualified to help you to plan your vegan diet. If you choose not to consult such an authority, that's your decision.
The reason why you're getting a negative vibe is because (1) you claim that want to be vegan, but (2) you seem unwilling to take even the smallest doses of supplements. Some of us here on VeganForum have been vegan for decades. We know what it takes to succeed on the diet, but you stubbornly refuse our advice.
.
Read the header again. I didn't come here to ask how to be a vegan. I came here to ask if vegetarian diet is moral. lol And no, it doesn't feel small. I've been vegan before and hated taking supplements everyday.
David3
Forum Legend
.
skhande2, your passive-aggression is just as offensive as that which you claim to be receiving from this forum. You've received practical advice on how to be vegan, and you have consistently rejected this advice. It's my experience that your kinds of posts soon become ignored.
.
Last edited:
Actually it is a strict vegetarian diet which is also without any animal products and it includes vitamin B12 once a week.
About your question it is not clear if this is an issue of veganism proper or supplement taking. Not all vegans or strict vegetarians are at ease with supplements, you can find some in this forum and you can also find people like doctor MacDougall, Jeff Nelson from VegSource and if I'm not mistaken doctor Neal Barnard too, who are sceptical about supplements. People are only recommended to take B12 and in some extreme cases vitamin D, which is actually a hormone.
Since it is not clear the effects vitamin supplements may have, and answering to your opening question, it is difficult to point the finger at someone who has reduced his animal products intake to the least he can without resorting to supplements and it would also be a hypocrisy having been in that same situation.
Last edited:
I like how this explains it simply--All of my first responses are rude. so let's just move on....
To the best of my knowledge that we can get B12 from eating soil or unwashed veggies is a myth. yes, b12 producing bacteria live in the soil and on roots. That how they end up in cows. but again as far as I know you can't just eat dirt for B12.
According to Mic the Vegan, you can get B12 "naturally" from Duckweed
Vitamin B12
Comments on daily B-12 vitamin --> # of mcgs level. Some say if you eat the right foods, you don't need it. I've heard 1000mcg per day for vegans / vegetarians is common. Costco sells 5000mcg capsules!! I recognize some folks with a B-12 shortage need more. Assume a healthy person w/no...
Pharmaceuticals grow vats of bacteria where they then harvest B12. in a sense this is not so different from the process of creating yeast for bread or beer. In a sense, it is no less natural than making beer or wine.
Why Every Vegan and Vegetarian Needs Vitamin B12
Keep an eye out for a vitamin B12 deficiency when eating a plant-based diet. Learn about the simplest, most reliable ways to meet your needs for vitamin B12.
www.forksoverknives.com
I'm a curious if skhande2 understands that while dairy milk contains some b12, it is destroyed in heating. Raw milk isn't even legal to be sold in the US, though I know there are ways around it. Unless they are making their own yogurt using raw milk, not boiled prior to culturing at 110 F, they aren't getting any B12, although i suppose they may "feel" they are....
beforewisdom
Forum Legend
Your diet is far less amoral than most other people's diets.
It is a pain in the ***, but you could make it moral by visiting the dairy farm where the milk for your yogurt comes from to see what kind of life the cows lead.
FWIW, it is a lot less than beef, but yogurt has cholesterol and saturated fats too.
I mention it because you are concerned about heart disease.
As long as there are victims, your diet is not moral. That's the simple truth. Veganism has a definition (per the vegan society) and means to exclude all animal abuse and exploitation, or the products therof. Yogurt made from breastmilk (unless that milk was given with the mother's consent) absolutely involves exploitation, and most often abuse. One is either vegan or not. There's no such thing as "mostly feminist, but I just hit my wife every now and then," or "mostly anti-slavery...I just own one slave and I'm really nice to him," or "mostly vegan...I just hit my dog, but I don't eat meat or eggs." Veganism = anti animal abuse. The only reason people equate it with diet is because most of the animals we abuse are for the purpose of eating them or their secretions. You sound plant based and if that's where you are, that's where you are. Your diet, as you described, has victims. If that doesn't sit well with you, there's no reason why you can't change.
Your post suggests no diet is moral.
It also raises an issue that has been bugging me and maybe this is a good opportunity to clarify it. The person who first introduced me to veganism was very strict and considered having pets a form of animal exploitation, but since then have noticed most vegans are very comfortable with having pets. Isn't there a contradiction? It is okay to have dogs and cats or other animals but it is not okay to have chickens and cows?
Last edited:
