Clairey
Vegan wannabe
Daily Telegraph February 2005 Hungry foxes start eating the nations cats. Google that if you are able to.
Natural predators (lions, tigers, wolves, etc.) kill differently than humans. Humans will pick the biggest, strongest, healthiest animal in a herd. Natural predators pick out the sick and weaker animals from the herd. This is a natural process that prevents overpopulation by species.
You can see the devastation when predators are removed, or a fast breeding animal is introduced to an area that doesn't have natural predators.
Predators, in the wild, keep nature in balance. They are well suited to this environment.
When we can chow down on a week old, raw, rotting carcass, then we can call ourselves carnivores.
You can see the devastation when predators are removed, or a fast breeding animal is introduced to an area that doesn't have natural predators.
Predators, in the wild, keep nature in balance. They are well suited to this environment.
When we can chow down on a week old, raw, rotting carcass, then we can call ourselves carnivores.
Freesia
not my business.
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Being a vegetarian or vegan is about not eating animals and what the animal eats is irrelevant.
The only thing that would surprise me about this would be if they didn't mention the other things that can kill cats if they go outdoors- mainly, but not necessarily limited to, motor vehicles. My parents had 7 cats. I barely remember the first one, whom they got when I was about 4 and died from some illness soon after; I don't think they even had this one long enough to give them a name. Of the other 6 (5 of whom were outside frequently) two were definitely killed by cars. I found a third laying dead beside the house one night, bleeding from the mouth; we assumed she was hit also. The second cat they adopted came home one night with a bad wound on his throat and died within a year; in retrospect, I think he might have been infected with feline leukemia. So 4 of their 5 "frequently outdoor" cats had their lives cut short.
But as far as predation from non-human predators is concerned... I could definitely support large preserves for herbivores, with predators kept out and the herbivores' population/reproduction controlled.
Consider: Elephants and Rhinoceroses have no significant predators... and yet, they do not generally overpopulate and ruin the ecosystem. African lions, North American brown bears, Orca whales, and eagles have no significant predators (other than humans)- yet, they don't overpopulate. I believe that most herbivores reproduce so prolifically in the first place because of predation pressure.
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I googled it and could find nothing except this:
Is it likely that a fox will attack me, my child, my cat or my dog? | Wildlife Online
The reason I asked about it is because most domestic cats are larger than most foxes so it seems unlikely that they can drag them away. I also can't understand how this can lead to bigger cats as you said in another thread. You might be right of course and I will continue to research, but I can't understand how it is possible.
vesper818
Nearly Pacifist
In our area, coyotes have moved into suburbia, and frequently take cats and small dogs. Bobcats and even raccoons can kill small pets.
I do wish people would keep their cats inside, as the songbird population has struggled fir years....
I do wish people would keep their cats inside, as the songbird population has struggled fir years....
Clairey
Vegan wannabe
The Bristol research is out of date.
I am in the uk, yourself in Sweden, that could be the difference in the news stories.
There are stories also about foxes going in peoples houses and hurting people, sometimes they go in through a window.
Big cats are on the increase in the uk. I put the two things together myself.
I am in the uk, yourself in Sweden, that could be the difference in the news stories.
There are stories also about foxes going in peoples houses and hurting people, sometimes they go in through a window.
Big cats are on the increase in the uk. I put the two things together myself.
These innocent creatures have no other alternative as their natural habitat lacks food and water. It's up to us human beings to protect
our pets as coyotes and bobcats hunt for food. That's what they do in the wild so their habits will not change when they end up in suburbia.
These are very rare and isolated incidents. There are far more incidents (including serious wounds) with dogs biting children. I'd be far more worried that a child should get abducted or be in a car accident than getting bitten by a fox.
Foxs have moved into suburbia as they can no longer survive in the countryside. Moreover, there are still illegal fox hunts going on. They naturally are frightened of human beings and very often end up dead along the roadside as they cannot assess the danger of our busy roads. It's a tough life for a fox to live in suburbia and our very few animal rescuers are swamped with 24 h rescues.
There is a lot of conflicting information concerning big or wild cats living in the UK. There is very little data on the sightings of these animals and it's believed that they may have been released by certain zoos and also wildlife parks due to a change in the law during the 70's. However, people must bear in mind that these animals are more frightened of humans and they usually live in woodland.
Humans have done far more harm to animals by destroying their natural habitat. Hence, it's up to us to accept them living in suburbia and also to help them. Thankfully, there are many rescue groups in various areas who work endlessly so that our wildlife can be safe.
Clairey
Vegan wannabe
There was another big cat sighting near the Wiltshire border on the A303 in the last few days.
I hope that it's safe and sound. Any large animal near a busy road is a danger to the public and itself.
Clairey
Vegan wannabe
Theres been sightings of them over the years since Mary Chipperfield's Circus were said to have released 2 or 3 animals in Devon in the 1970's.
The Beast of Bodmin Moor is quite a well known story.
The sightings are now getting more frequent and all over the UK. Often a black big cat that has been seen.
They are probably a bit wary of vehicles and people.
Calliegirl
Forum Legend
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Humans are the worst predators of all and kill the most animals. If you remove humans nature will eventually balance itself again and billions of animals will be saved. It's kind of ironic and hypocritical that a human wants to kill other predators to save animals. 
Clairey
Vegan wannabe
All the creatures eat each other for some strange reason. Humans included. I do not know if that is how God meant it to be. Ido not think removing the human beings would make any difference, the animals would still carry on eating each other.Humans are the worst predators of all and kill the most animals. If you remove humans nature will eventually balance itself again and billions of animals will be saved. It's kind of ironic and hypocritical that a human wants to kill other predators to save animals.
FredVegrox
Forum Legend
Some animals eat other animals. But some animals eat plants. It is necessary that there are animals that eat photosynthesizing organisms, if there are any animals. If animals only ate animals it could not last as they would die out, none of them produce nutrients. Our nutrients are ultimately from plants, or the B12 just coming from soil bacteria. But it could happen that all animals just ate food from plants. Predators are around keeping herbivore populations from overpopulating. But having pets that are predators is not sustainable for the natural world. It is not well to keep feeding them food from animals, and not good for environment to let them catch animals.
FredVegrox
Forum Legend
With my faith I see this as spreading curse with the fall and continued rebellion against God. I do not believe God has animals here for being eaten and God has no pleasure in animals being killed. Also God knows the creation from God has the healthiest way for us being just whole foods from plants. I do not like thinking of animals being killed even by the predators. But in environments in our world the way it is they serve an important function and populations of the prey are healthier over all, from human hunters in place of natural predators the prey animals are much worse off.
Animals are amoral. They just act out of instinct. They do not have the necessary cognitive capacity to process good and bad. Morality(good and bad) is one of the "burdens" of higher cognitive beings, and only humans fall under the high-cognitive-beings column. It is for us to guide their(animals/predators) actions and make sure they do not do bad things. And since they cannot process good from bad, there is no punishment for animals. Just isolate them(animals/predators) in large sanctuaries and feed them nutritionally appropriate plant based faux meat food and medical care if you don't want them killing each other.
Plus, those carnivores don't have a choice. They can only eat meat, not plants. It's not their fault they were born a carnivore. They have the right to life too. If you don't like this then, like I said above, setup a sanctuary for them.
And you will disrupt the balance of the ecosystem if you isolate them in the sanctuary. It will rebalance after sometime but the ecosystem balance will get disrupted. Will this rebalanced ecosystem have reduced pain, suffering, death in it? Probably.
Plus, those carnivores don't have a choice. They can only eat meat, not plants. It's not their fault they were born a carnivore. They have the right to life too. If you don't like this then, like I said above, setup a sanctuary for them.
And you will disrupt the balance of the ecosystem if you isolate them in the sanctuary. It will rebalance after sometime but the ecosystem balance will get disrupted. Will this rebalanced ecosystem have reduced pain, suffering, death in it? Probably.
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If I were to state one commonality of vegans it would be that humans are not above other animals.
The idea veganfortheanimalss sees is placing humans as rulers of all life and antithetical to vegan objectives
The idea veganfortheanimalss sees is placing humans as rulers of all life and antithetical to vegan objectives
Veganism is very much limited to human interaction
I'm not saying humans are above animals and are rulers over them. I'm saying animals get a free pass because they are amoral. It's just like a juvenile getting a free pass for some of their actions while adult humans do not have that privilege either by logic or even legally. I'm saying humans need to be careful of their actions, because their actions(and by extension their character) could be classified as good or evil. And so humans who do evil are lesser in the moral ladder than amoral beings.
This might be one reason some people are hostile to the notion of animals having rights in general, or to veganism: they take this is a statement that humans are nothing more than animals. Frankly, there are some animals I've known who WERE better people than some humans I've known (specifically, two individual humans). But the rest of the humans I've known have generally acted more civilized and compassionate than many of the animals.
I want to also stress that none of what I just wrote- even if it is true (some may argue that it is not)- justifies the way humans usually treat animals.