Loss of Nutrients in Fruit after chopping?

[silva]

How on earth did we survive before we started washing our food? I rarely wash mine and I have had no stomach issues in decades.

I would eat very few fresh veggies if I washed them all. I went through time where I obsessed over buying organic, correctly washing, preparing in the most nutrient dense ways. I allowed a lot to go to waste before I came to understand just cooking/eating in whatever way I want to is better than being perfect
I can't think of a time when I could blame an upset stomach on food that I didn't know was on the verge of spoiled and ate anyway.

 

[Lou]

How on earth did we survive before we started washing our food? I rarely wash mine and I have had no stomach issues in decades.

Its complicated. And there are a lot of reasons.

one of the things that immediately comes to mind is why do you think we did a good job of "surviving" before hygiene.?

There have been 6 or maybe 7 cholera pandemics. The last one was in 1991.Cholera has killed millions of people.

Maybe more to the point is what is called a Food borne Disease Outbreak. These things are constantly in the news. Although improper cooking of meat is mostly to blame. There have been many occasions where it came from vegetables. Just last year, dozens of people got sick from salmonella that they contracted from Alfalfa sprouts. And I don't remember when it last happened but I remember there was a major recall of Romaine Lettuce. There was also an outbreak of lysteria that was connected to leafy greens.

 

[shyvas]

How on earth did we survive before we started washing our food? I rarely wash mine and I have had no stomach issues in decades.

We are lucky to live in countries where the water supply is treated correctly. Sadly, it is in poor countries that most often environmental health conditions and hygienic practices are deficient.

 

[shyvas]

There have been 6 or maybe 7 cholera pandemics. The last one was in 1991.Cholera has killed millions of people.

Maybe more to the point is what is called a Food borne Disease Outbreak. These things are constantly in the news. Although improper cooking of meat is mostly to blame.

It was contaminated water that was to blame for this particular outbreak of cholera in Peru not meat.

 

[majorbloodnok]

I feel I'm going to have to do a fair bit of clarifying since this thread seems to be taking something of a life of its own.

...
Allergist and immunologist James Fernandez, MD, PhD, says there’s no scientific evidence to suggest that temporarily stepping up your cleaning game is dangerous to your immune health.
...

...
Despite some rumors there is no danger to weakening your immune system from following good hygiene.
...

Please note that the Dr Fernandez is commenting on temporary changes to one's routine and he's absolutely right. Any effect of disinfection on one's immune system is long-term irrespective of what that effect is and what disinfection is carried out (or not).

Please also note that "good hygiene" is a nebulous term that means different things to different people. Nonetheless, even if we take a very all-encompassing view of what it means, it's perfectly reasonable to say that if whatever you've habitually done in the past hasn't harmed you, continuing doing it won't make a tangible difference.

Please also note that nowhere in my earlier posts did I suggest there was any conflict between any interpretation of "good hygiene" and the strength of one's immune system. What I did say is that your body has an immune system for a reason and it does its job very well, and that minor tweaks to one's environment (in this case washing fruit and vegetables) will not influence things much (unless, as my "apple" example stated, the fruit is covered in something obviously bad like mould from adjoining fruit, in which case cleaning is obviously prudent).

I will also reiterate that I was specifically excluding artificially applied chemicals from all this, and did say they were worth worrying about.

...
The stuff the Major cited has Mostly been debunked. I think there still has some stuff with asthma in children but I'm not at all clear on that.
...

None of what I have cited has been debunked unless we include what people may have incorrectly extrapolated. I do not, however, say what I can't back up.

The somewhat outdated "hygiene hypothesis" has been extended as a result of recent research and that latter research has increased markedly the understanding about the ways in which exposure to microbes can benefit and in some ways is essential to the health of our immune system.

The hygiene hypothesis: current perspectives and future therapies | ITT

The hygiene hypothesis: current perspectives and future therapies Leah T Stiemsma,1,2 Lisa A Reynolds,3 Stuart E Turvey,1,2,4 B Brett Finlay1,3,5 1Department of Microbiology & Immunology, University of British Columbia, 2The Child and Family Research Institute, 3Michael Smith Laboratories...

www.dovepress.com

The aside that @Lou made about asthma is an important related topic and can be found here

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1007302

The first link is to a study from 2015, the latter from 2011, so we're not talking about research that is wildly out of date. The studies are as published (i.e. not "interpreted") and were carried out according to sound scientific principles of testing and review, so unless anyone can see any glaring errors I would suggest they are reliable.

At the same time, an article in the BMJ has indeed talked about debunking the myth that an increase in allergic conditions is because homes are "too clean"

Scientists debunk idea that rise in allergic diseases is due to homes becoming “too clean”

UK researchers say that they have dismantled the “myth” that allergic diseases have risen to epidemic levels because people now live in sterile homes and have become “too clean.” A report published today by the International Scientific Forum on Home Hygiene rejects the so called hygiene...

www.bmj.com

However, there is a world of difference between being told some germ exposure is beneficial and taking that to mean over-cleanliness is harmful. That is not a safe interpretation, and there is, in fact, no contradiction between the articles as published. The benefits of germ exposure (which I did mention) have not been debunked, but the unsafe extrapolation that over-cleanliness is dangerous (which I did not mention) has been.

Now, bringing the general thrust of this thread back down into the more mundane, I was making a few rather minor points:

• Soaking fruit and veg, particularly after peeling, will result in some nutrients being lost into the water.
• The normal washing of fruit and veg before use will have little effect on your fight against diseases compared with what your immune system does for you, so don't overthink it. The only caveat I made is that the produce in question is not obviously covered in something likely disease-ridden. I will now add a second caveat for clarity that either you have grown the produce yourself or bought it from a regulated outlet in a modern developed country.
• The chemicals used in the growing of fruit and veg are still a concern and that steps should be taken to remove them. In reality this does involve some form of washing before use, but alternatives like peeling could be used instead.
• Processing the produce in any way will have an effect on both the nutrients present (e.g. degrading them by heat) and the availability of those nutrients to a person's digestive system (e.g. blending making whatever's present more readily available). This will have consequences, some desirable, some not. Knowing what those consequences are will help tailor one's diet to one's own circumstances.
• Given the original question was focused on loss of nutrients, I ultimately made the point that a normal healthily balanced diet will supply an abundance of all the necessary nutrients one's body needs, and that someone therefore does not have to worry too much about extracting every microgram from each piece of fruit or veg. If you need some more of a nutrient, you can always eat another carrot/apple/item of your choice.

 

[Datel]

Soaking fruit and veg, particularly after peeling, will result in some nutrients being lost into the water.

But if you were to drink the water, which you probably shouldn't / wouldn't do, would you still be able to fully absorb these nutrients? So that they weren't lost after all?

In reality this does involve some form of washing before use, but alternatives like peeling could be used instead.

Peeling without washing before?

Given the original question was focused on loss of nutrients, I ultimately made the point that a normal healthily balanced diet will supply an abundance of all the necessary nutrients one's body needs, and that someone therefore does not have to worry too much about extracting every microgram from each piece of fruit or veg.

I could imagine that many, like me probably, don't have such a normal healthily balanced diet. And the normal (not organic) fruit, veggies sometimes or often or so seem to have (at least comparatively) few nutrients (at the moment you obviously can get a normal apple nine month old or one (almost) just harvested, so one never knows how good a fruit, veg really is).

If you need some more of a nutrient, you can always eat another carrot/apple/item of your choice.

Yes, but how would you know what nutrient you needed right now?

 

[majorbloodnok]

But if you were to drink the water, which you probably shouldn't / wouldn't do, would you still be able to fully absorb these nutrients? So that they weren't lost after all?
...

We've already discussed this earlier in the thread. If you consume the water, you will ingest those nutrients and your body will be able to absorb them as easily as if they came straight from the fruit or veg. However, the water is often there to cook things in and the heat can break degrade some nutrients, so if you consume that water then you are likely not consuming ALL the nutrients that were released from the fruit or veg.

...
Peeling without washing before?
...

Yup. No reason why not.

...
I could imagine that many, like me probably, don't have such a normal healthily balanced diet. And the normal (not organic) fruit, veggies sometimes or often or so seem to have (at least comparatively) few nutrients (at the moment you obviously can get a normal apple nine month old or one (almost) just harvested, so one never knows how good a fruit, veg really is).
...

...
Yes, but how would you know what nutrient you needed right now?

I'm sure you're overthinking things here. You already have a measuring device available to you - your body. If you are functioning perfectly well and, in your periodic visits to the doctor, you are not told you have something wrong with you, your diet is fine. Could it be better? Perhaps, but it at least is good enough. If your body really needs one particular nutrient right now, it'll tell you and the message won't be particularly subtle. In general, though, your body will be perfectly capable of stockpiling an excess of most nutrients so that if you're lacking it in your diet on one day then you're just operating from reserves.

In short, don't stress too much and let your body do what it's well designed to do.

 

[Datel]

We've already discussed this earlier in the thread.

Sorry for having asked again (maybe in another context). But it is somehow reassuring to get the same (confirming) answer to the same question again.

Yup. No reason why not.

Maybe because you touch the peel (with the chemicals, germs) and then with the same hand the pulp. And maybe because the juice that comes out of the fruit when it is chopped up / cut off / peeled runs over the peel and might bring chemicals, germs on the pulp. That can't happen?

I'm sure you're overthinking things here. You already have a measuring device available to you - your body. If you are functioning perfectly well and, in your periodic visits to the doctor, you are not told you have something wrong with you, your diet is fine. Could it be better? Perhaps, but it at least is good enough. If your body really needs one particular nutrient right now, it'll tell you and the message won't be particularly subtle. In general, though, your body will be perfectly capable of stockpiling an excess of most nutrients so that if you're lacking it in your diet on one day then you're just operating from reserves.

In short, don't stress too much and let your body do what it's well designed to do.

OK, that sounds kind of reassuring (although there are no periodic visits to the doctor here. Actually, (normal) doctors are generally supposed to have zero idea about nutrition, I've heard.)

 

[Lou]

This is concerning. well to me at least. I don't always wash the salad mixes I buy.

The new Netflix documentary Poisoned brought up several food safety concerns, including the ongoing issue of produce contaminated with dangerous bacteria due to sharing land with animal agriculture.​

​

But should we be concerned about ready-to-eat greens and veggies? A new study says yes.​

The 5 Top Veggie Burger Picks From a Nutritionist

Burgers are delicious and filling, and they can be nutritious, too, especially when you choose whole food options. Here are the five healthiest vegan burgers, according to a nutritionist.

vegnews.com

 

[Datel]

Many thanks for the links!

I don't always wash the salad mixes I buy.

Those boxed, pre-made ones? There are supposed to be problems with such from time to time as far as I remember. Because of hygiene, germs etc.

Well, obviously one always needs a little (or more) luck to survive one's meals or stay healthy after eating.

And don't even think about how hotels and restaurants, etc. handle vegetables/fruit. I suspect that at least many people won't wash them (sensibly).

That reminds me, I always wondered why dried dates (supposedly) don't need to be washed. But - once saw a video about their processing/handling - they are obviously touched by a lot of people and there is no processing that germs, bacteria1 would kill or eliminate chemicals. Or is there a reason not to actually wash them?

Forget Meat, the Veggie Burger Is King: 5 Top Vegan Picks From a Nutritionist

Are they really supposed to be good?

 

[Lou]

Are they really supposed to be good?

Good might be too strong a word.
But Not Bad is absolutely fair.

I had a box of Dr. Praegers in the freezer. Sort of cooincidentally. I was shopping yesterday and they were on sale and cheaper than the Boca Burgers I sometimes get. I like to have a box of Boca Burgers in the freezer at all times. I call it Emergency Food although to be honest it's the meal I cook when I don't fell like cooking.

Diving deeper than the article there are a couple of things that are good.
As the article points out they have 5 grams of fiber and 5 grams of protein. That is a decent start and a decent ratio. Also low in fat, especially sat fat, 6g and .5 g respectively. The worse thing is the sodium. 250 mg. That is still within what people would call OK.

The ingredients also tell a good story. Carrots, onions, and string beans are the first three. Oat bran, soybeans and zucchini are the next three. Canola oil is #7. Judging by the amount of fat - it's probably less than 2 teaspoons.

So now add a Dave's Killer Hamburger bun, an ear of corn, and a half cup of baked beans... plug into Cronometer and you get a pretty decent meal. I didn't bother adding in the condiments.
569 calories
21 g protien
16 g fiber
1 g sat fat
and too much sodium for one meal. Bread, beans and burger all contributed.

Vitamins and minerals were the worst aspect. Maybe I should have had something other than beans and corn. but I was trying for authenticity.

 

[silva]

This is concerning. well to me at least. I don't always wash the salad mixes I buy.

The new Netflix documentary Poisoned brought up several food safety concerns, including the ongoing issue of produce contaminated with dangerous bacteria due to sharing land with animal agriculture.​

​

But should we be concerned about ready-to-eat greens and veggies? A new study says yes.​

The 5 Top Veggie Burger Picks From a Nutritionist

Burgers are delicious and filling, and they can be nutritious, too, especially when you choose whole food options. Here are the five healthiest vegan burgers, according to a nutritionist.

vegnews.com

Until something terrible happens I will continue to risk organic prewashed spring mixes, or I'd never eat salads
I love to cook but washing fruits and veggies I absolutely hate
I can't think of a time I got sick from food that I didn't already suspect was spoiled, and only a few times

 

[Datel]

Yes, some Emergency Foods of various kinds do not seem to be bad, but they are (more or less) industrially produced foods. And the bun alone probably isn't really good either. Yes, too much Sodium, Natrium, salt is reached extremely fast / too quickly. But 250 mg? Does not sound that / too much, I would think, is actually quite little, far away from a "bad" quantity. Or not?

That Cronometer works well? Is easy to handle?

 

[robert85]

When fruits and vegetables are cut open or pureed, they can be exposed to air and light, which can lead to the degradation of certain nutrients, particularly vitamins like vitamin C. However, this process typically takes longer than just 30 minutes. The rate of nutrient loss varies depending on the food and storage conditions.

 

[Lou]

Yes, some Emergency Foods of various kinds do not seem to be bad, but they are (more or less) industrially produced foods.

Nowadays, unless you have a garden, just about anything you eat is "(more or less) industrially produced foods".
I think what should concern us is processed food. or more to the point, Highly Processed Food. Even the food you eat of your garden is processed: Picked, washed, chopped. That is three processes right there. Rolled oats, still in the box, has gone thru at least 5 processes. But I wouldn't call them highly processed.
The processes that should concern us are those that takeaway nutrients and add ingredients. For example: Removing fiber; and adding sugar; salt; and oil

And the bun alone probably isn't really good either.

IMHO, the whole things with grains is overblown. I've decided for myself that Grains Are Good. And I feel good about that decision. As far as I know, all the author/doctors who write vegan diet books agree. The issue is that most of us eat too many servings of grains. One to three a day is good. but most Americans eat five or more.
Also this is where your concern with processing kicks in. Making flour is a process. Removing the fiber makes it (in my book) highly processed. So just buy whole grains.
My hamburger buns were not only whole grain, but included seeds.

Yes, too much Sodium, Natrium, salt is reached extremely fast / too quickly. But 250 mg? Does not sound that / too much, I would think, is actually quite little, far away from a "bad" quantity. Or not?

Bonus points for using Natrium in a sentence. but I don't think you had to. saying sodium is enough.

There is some controversy on how much sodium is too much, even its role in HBP might be overstated. Anyway the American Dietary Guidelines recommend to keep your sodium intake below 2300 mg a day.

That Cronometer works well? Is easy to handle?

I'm like the CronOmeter ambassador here. When new vegans show up with questions about nutrition, I always recommend CronOmeter. If you are concerned about good nutrition - I think it is almost mandatory. The only exception is if you are using a meal plan developed by a doctor or RD. Like the ones in Vegan Kickstart. Those are already calculated.
Oh, there is at least one other exception: If you have an ED, CronOmeter can be triggering.

"Easy to handle"?
Not sure.
It's not simple. And it's not completely intuitive. However there is a really good manual and YouTube has quite a few instructional videos. I would say it has a moderately steep learning curve. Most people have mastered it in about a week.
Even after you have mastered it - it does take time. at least 5 minutes a day.

Also after a while you can just stop using it. At least until you make modifications to your diet and need to check it again.

It's free to use. They have a "Gold" version that costs money but that is mostly for RDs and pros with clients. Although the gold version does have some very cool features that almost anyone can use.

If you need help learning it - feel free to shoot me a PM. Also we have a CronOmeter thread.

Oh, BTW I always put that capital O in the name. Otherwise my spell checker turns it into chronometer.
Trivia: CRONometer stands for Carbohydrate Reduction Optimum Nutrition. It was developed for weight loss dieting. But it works for every kind of diet

All things CronOmeter

If I had a nickel for every time I recommended CronOmeter to someone here in the forum This month my main goal is to get my calorie consumption up, my weight up, etc. Which is exactly the opposite of how my goals have been. I have been using CronOmeter for everything every day. And I learned...

www.veganforum.org

 

[Datel]

OK, sorry, missed that there are whole grains in the bun. Yes, seeds and grains are said to be very good, important. But why overblown?

I wasn't quite sure Natrium (hope, I will get again some bonus points) and Sodium are exactly the same. But obviously there is no difference. 2300 mg Sodium. Is it about 5 g salt?

If you need help learning it - feel free to shoot me a PM. Also we have a CronOmeter thread.

Ah, that's great, many thanks! I would do so.

Many thanks for the link!

 

[Lou]

OK, sorry, missed that there are whole grains in the bun. Yes, seeds and grains are said to be very good, important. But why overblown?

I hear a lot of people say things like I don't eat grains anymore. Or I'm watching my carbs and stuff like that.

But Carbs are really important for good nutrition. And grains are a good source of carbs.

I wasn't quite sure Natrium (hope, I will get again some bonus points) and Sodium are exactly the same.

Technically Natrium is just sodium. And sodium is the Na in NaCl. NaCl is salt. in fact the reason sodium is Na comes from the word Natrium. Probably latin
But to confuse the whole thing, there is a mineral salt also called Natrium.

But obviously there is no difference. 2300 mg Sodium. Is it about 5 g salt?

no. Divide by 1000. so 2300 mg is 2.3g.
The m in mg means 1000.

 

[Datel]

Actually I would think / understand 2.5 grams of salt equals one gram of sodium.

Sodium and salt converter | Heart Foundation

Convert the sodium listed on food products into grams of salt or vice versa.

www.heartfoundation.org.au

I believe the WHO says 5g of salt daily should not be exceeded.

 

[Lou]

Actually I would think / understand 2.5 grams of salt equals one gram of sodium.

Sodium and salt converter | Heart Foundation

Convert the sodium listed on food products into grams of salt or vice versa.

www.heartfoundation.org.au

I believe the WHO says 5g of salt daily should not be exceeded.

Oh. good call. I forgot that sodium is not the same thing as salt.

 

[Lou]

I just ran out of my store bought Fruit and Vegetable Wash.
I thought I would make my own this time
Anyone have a recipe?