Mass shootings and the American dream

[ledboots]

do you own a gun Ledboots?

No, we don't have any guns.

My late father was a marine and had a handgun (locked in the safe, ammo in another safe lol). My brother, who lives right near Newtown where the kindergarten shooting took place, has Dad's pistol now, with a permit to carry concealed. I don't want guns as my husband and I don't shoot, and my son is a karate black belt and eschews weapons.

 

[ledboots]

Which one seems more trustworthy? The one at Crime Prevention Research Center triggers some warning lights, like lack of article author, although from the comments underneath it appears to be authored by one John Lott. There is also blatant anti-regulation imagery, and book recommendations in the sidebar for apparent anti-gun regulation books, several authored by Lott. The 'about' page for the site makes it clear that they have their minds made up. Such blatant bias isn't compatible with actual science.

Looking up John Lott on Wikipedia is revealing too, and does not add to the CPRC article's credibility, either.

The author of the vox article posted, German Lopez, is an Ohio based journalist who seems to write mostly about pro gun control. So let's not act as if he is unbiased.

 

[Blues]

Think there seems to be two types of shootings , one is referred to as" mass" and the second is day
to day shootings , to me , they are both the same . Maybe "mass shooting ' brings up more fear .
It would be interesting to see the stats on the gun deaths since the latest "mass " shooting .

Some States have made inroads into gun violence , maybe other states could look at their successes and change their laws/mindset

 

[Second Summer]

The author of the vox article posted, German Lopez, is an Ohio based journalist who seems to write mostly about pro gun control. So let's not act as if he is unbiased.

Absolutely, you're right, he's got a clear bias as well, but at least he's signed his article with his own name, don't try to inflate the authority of the article by hiding behind a supposed "research center", and his career doesn't seem to suffer from such controversial methods (online sockpuppet, supposed lost data for a survey, false claims). That said, Lott does have an otherwise impressive academic career.

 

[Andy_T]

Which one seems more trustworthy? The one at Crime Prevention Research Center triggers some warning lights, like lack of article author, although from the comments underneath it appears to be authored by one John Lott.

The other article you posted mentions that the secretary of the Crime Prevention Center is Ted Nugent.

To be honest, I personally am not as much concerned with mass shootings as with accidents and misuse of the guns owned by legal gun owners, including suicide, which seems to go up significantly with gun ownership, a gun offering an "easy" way to the owner to commit suicide.

I remember reading an article in Newsweek (must have been 25 years ago) on gun control, where they posted images and explanations of all the people killed by guns on a single day in America (must have been around 50). Unfortuantely I was not successful in retrieving this article. Now, I do not know whether the day was cherry-picked for effect, but I remember seeing - besides a number of victims of criminal gun use - a heartbreaking amount of pictures of kids who accidentally shot each other, spouses killed by irate husbands for whatever (sometimes trivial) reasons, people mistaken by legal gun owners for intruders, and gun owners committing suicide.

And I am also quite concerned about the fact that there are states that not only allow average people to carry concealed guns, but also give them the legal right to use them if they should feel threatened (e.g. by some other guy who is stronger than they are, and who might beat them up in a barroom brawl) without any requirement on their part to de-escalate a dangerous situation (my layman's understanding or misunderstanding of "stand your ground" laws).

It does not take much abstract thought to consider that George Zimmermann would likely have rather waited for a real policeman to confront Trayvon Martin, had he not been carrying a gun with him and felt entitled to use it...

Best regards,
Andy

 

[Andy_T]

That said, Lott does have an otherwise impressive academic career.

Unfortunately, the number of scientific deceptions he has been found guilty of is equally impressive...

 

[ledboots]

For the zillionth time, Stand Your Ground was not the defense used for Zimmerman, it was plain self-defense.

 

[ledboots]

Absolutely, you're right, he's got a clear bias as well, but at least he's signed his article with his own name, don't try to inflate the authority of the article by hiding behind a supposed "research center", and his career doesn't seem to suffer from such controversial methods (online sockpuppet, supposed lost data for a survey, false claims). That said, Lott does have an otherwise impressive academic career.

I am not going to sit here and argue source credibility with you. Your links include articles by a CNN blogger, etc.

The vast majority of the US media is very far left on the gun control issue, just as the vast majority of the US media is registered democrats. They have spent decades attempting to discredit Lott and others on the other side of the gun issue.

Edited to add:

"In a just-released survey conducted in late 2013, of 1,080 television network, print and online journalists, 28 percent self-identified as Democrats and only one-fourth as many, a piddling seven percent, called themselves Republican. That four-to-one disparity is up from two-to-one (36 to 18 percent) in the same poll taken in 2002, as the share of Republicans has plunged by 11 points.

The numbers come from “The American Journalist in the Digital Age,” the latest in a decennial poll of journalists conducted, since the early 1970s, by the School of Journalism at Indiana University."

New Survey of 1,000 Journalists: Four Times More Identify as Democrats Than Republicans

 

[Andy_T]

For the zillionth time, Stand Your Ground was not the defense used for Zimmerman, it was plain self-defense.

I understand that well. It is also not what I said.

What I was saying is that carrying a gun, and knowing that he was "entitled" to use it should things not turn out as he had planned, was very likely one of the factors that led to George Zimmermann confronting Trayvon Martin, which further led to one person losing its life (instead of waiting for a policeman, as he was instructed by the 911 operator).

What would have been the result of a policeman confronting Trayvon Martin, who was black and wearing a hoodie, is anybody's guess....

But it is exactly people like George Zimmermann that I would personally feel afraid of, when traveling to the United States...

 

[ledboots]

I understand that well. It is also not what I said.

What I was saying is that carrying a gun, and knowing that he was "entitled" to use it should things not turn out as he had planned, was very likely one of the factors that led to George Zimmermann confronting Trayvon Martin, which further led to one person losing its life (instead of waiting for a policeman, as he was instructed by the 911 operator).

What would have been the result of a policeman confronting Trayvon Martin, who was black and wearing a hoodie, is anybody's guess....

But it is exactly people like George Zimmermann that I would personally feel afraid of, when traveling to the United States...

Yes, don't come here if you value your life!!!!. Zimmerman and/or the cops will likely shoot you the second you deplane. I hardly know anyone alive anymore in the US, what with everyone being gunned down.

 

[Second Summer]

I am not going to sit here and argue source credibility with you. Your links include articles by a CNN blogger, etc.

Well, KLS asked which article to believe since they appeared to be contradictory.

The vast majority of the US media is very far left on the gun control issue, just as the vast majority of the US media is registered democrats.

I don't know the US media like you do since I don't live there, but are they really that "far left" on the issue? I would expect "very far left" to mean something like wanting the government to seize all privately owned firearms. Is that really what the vast majority of the US media wants?

'Democrat' is also not necessarily particularly leftist, not by international standards. On the other hand, the US Repoublicans, especially in recent years, have moved very far to the right.

They have spent decades attempting to discredit Lott and others on the other side of the gun issue.

The gun control issue has somehow become very politicized in the US, so I suppose it's not surprising if dirty tactics have been used on both sides. Is there no independent / unbiased research on the issue? Perhaps if we look at studies from other countries where the issue is less politicized, there is easier to find unbiased research.

 

[Andy_T]

just as the vast majority of the US media is registered democrats.

... it seems the majority in 2012 identified themselves as "independent", according to the statistic you posted.

 

[ledboots]

... it seems the majority in 2012 identified themselves as "independent", according to the statistic you posted.

Yes, I saw that when I looked up a link. I should have said the majority are liberal, not democratic.

 

[Mischief]

Yes, don't come here if you value your life!!!!. Zimmerman and/or the cops will likely shoot you the second you deplane. I hardly know anyone alive anymore in the US, what with everyone being gunned down.

You're very fortunate indeed that your life has not been closely affected by gun violence.

It might be well to remember that not all of us are in a position to be so glib and amusing about it.

 

[Mischief]

University of Texas Professor Quits Over Concealed Carry Law

I certainly wouldn't want to be a teacher (or a student) in a classroom where people are carrying guns.

I have seen enough meltdowns in stores, parking lots, highways, etc., to be thankful that none of the participants in those particular altercations were armed.

 

[Andy_T]

I certainly wouldn't want to be a teacher (or a student) in a classroom where people are carrying guns.

What a wuss! He should get a gun himself and practice fast draw....

 

[beancounter]

You know, children have 2nd amendment rights too!

I say, arm all the kindergartners. That way the good kindergartners with guns can shoot the bad kindergartners with guns.

 

[Mischief]

You know, children have 2nd amendment rights too!

I say, arm all the kindergartners. That way the good kindergartners with guns can shoot the bad kindergartners with guns.

Not to mention, they can resolve disputes over matters like who gets to play with a puppy very efficiently. Boy accused of fatally shooting girl over puppy - CNN.com