Raising hens - vegan?

[bgm]

Hi all, my name is Ben. I've been veg for most of my life, and I was vegan for nearly 20 years. Now I eat locally produced dairy products and eggs. I grew up in a rural area, and we always had a chicken coupe. Our hens were our pets, and they happened to lay some very delicious eggs. My siblings and I collected the eggs every morning, cleaned the poop off, and had breakfast.

We lived on about an acre, and our hens wandered the yard. Strangely enough they always enjoyed the coupe and spent most of their time there.

Here is my question: what is the harm in having hens as pets? What is wrong with eating eggs when you know exactly where they came from? Is it best to throw eggs in the compost heap or eat them?

I vehemently despise factory farming... and I will never eat anything from a farm that I don't know. This is exactly the reason I became vegan in the first place.

I'm interested in hearing opinions. Based on my circumstances, what are you thoughts? Very interested in hearing from other people who have raised hens and understand their behavior.

Best,

Ben

 

[VIctoria F]

I'm not a hen expert, so I'm afraid can't help with proper advice.
But it's something I've wondered too. If you can keep your own hens, and make sure they're healthy and not overproducing, surely it does less harm to get your nutrition from something with zero food miles and packaging?

 

[Nekodaiden]

I think your question should be - eating eggs, Vegan? To which the answer is no. This is one of those situations where if the hen has abandoned the egg, doesn't eat it herself (which I understand they sometimes do), then sure, there's no harm to the animal by consuming it.

But it isn't Vegan because Vegan doesn't mean "it's ethical, therefore you may...", it means no animal products in the diet. A bird that falls from it's nest or smashes into a building and dies as a result may be edible from a purely ethical point of view, but ethical or no, it is not part of Veganism, as Veganism was defined as a diet not a religion or course on ethics.

 

[Emma JC]

The other reason is that eggs are not healthy.... despite the marketing done to promote them as such.

Here is a link to Dr Greger's Nutrition Facts website and all the great videos he has done on eggs.
Click Here.

Emma JC

 

[Lou]

this question comes up a lot.

Raising hens - Vegan?
Short answer: No.

However, you asked a bunch of other questions and I think they merit a longer answer. Even a discussion.
Also, I will tell you right up front that I like this kind of discussion. Many vegans think that this kind of discussion is a distraction. In fact, I used to think so too. Now I think that veganism is not a belief system, but that its a set of values. and it IS a good idea to explore ideas, have discussions, and debates. Veganism is about ethics. the whole field of ethics would be nowhere without discussions and thought experiments.

You didn't ask about eggs being healthy, but Emma has already brought it up. And I do feel that it should be part of the discussion. The egg companies have done an excellent job of clouding the whole "are eggs good for you" debate. I don't want to get bogged down in that aspect. Let's just say that there is nothing essential or necessary in eggs for human health. We don't need to eat them.

Backyard chickens are very far from factory farmed chickens. And many vegans have wondered about this. you included a bunch of conditions and exceptions to your question. Those conditions and exceptions make it a much more difficult answer. I will get to that in just a minute but before I do....

If you look into the typical backyard chicken coupe all you will see is hens. Suburban areas that allow for backyard chickens usually have laws against roosters. Or people don't like having roosters. Or even if there is a rooster there aren't very many. People who raise hens for breeding even limit the roosters. Too many roosters - and you have fights. But keep in mind that in nature for every hen born is a rooster. 1:1. Half and Half. So you have to ask the question, where are all the boys? In most situations, the answer is: they were destroyed.

In the wild, chickens (Gallus, gallus) don't lay chickens all year long. They have clutches. A few eggs per clutch. A few cluthes a year. Maybe at the most, 20 eggs a year. laying chickens has been selectively bred to lay way more eggs than that. Chickens will stop laying eggs when they have eggs or babies to take care of. by removing eggs they will be triggered to lay more eggs. Backyard chickens will lay hundreds of eggs a year. This is a huge drain on the metabolism and they will die much sooner than they would in the wild.

Now, the other side of the argument can get pretty interesting. What if the chickens were rescued, or inherited? That can pretty much nullify the "where are the boys" issue. But taking the eggs away still triggers egg laying. Leave the eggs in place and the eggs will hatch or the chicken will eat them. You don't throw the eggs away. You don't eat them. You leave them alone.

I'm pretty much for people making up their own minds about what is ethical or not. but I also believe they must have all the facts and then give it some thought. If you have a chicken sanctuary than its ok to have chickens in your backyard. But its still not vegan to eat their eggs. But if you believe its ok ethically, well, that is your decision.

A YouTube Vegan has a great article and video on this subject. If you read them you will see that I echo some of her stuff. But this stuff has been knocking around the vegan community for years.

http://www.bitesizevegan.org/vegan-health/can-vegans-eat-eggs-from-backyard-chickens-veggans/

 

[Emma JC]

amazing detailed and thoughtful answer, Lou! thank you

Emma JC

 

[Lou]

amazing detailed and thoughtful answer, Lou! thank you

Emma JC

 

[Nekodaiden]

The OP actually only asked one pertinent question, although it came out into 3:

“Here is my question: what is the harm in having hens as pets? What is wrong with eating eggs when you know exactly where they came from? Is it best to throw eggs in the compost heap or eat them? “

I think it is clear that the main questions being asked are :

“What is the harm in having hens for pets when I primarily keep them for their eggs to eat” and “Isn’t it just wasteful to throw them out instead of eat them?”

To me this matter is extremely clear.

Abandoned eggs, roadkill, birds that fall from nests and die, birds that smack into buildings and die, a cat or a dog that dies of natural causes – or any other animal for that matter

...are all ethical to eat.

But it is not Vegan to eat them.

If you are confused about this, it’s probably because someone has told you or explained to you that Veganism is the same as being Ethical. Or having values. If that were true, then Vegans wouldn’t lie, cheat, manipulate, steal, misrepresent themselves, etc. The people equating Veganism with Ethics are (knowingly or unknowingly) trying to erode the definition of Veganism by alluding to the ethical results of being Vegan (abstinence from all animal products in the diet, with encouragement to abstain from things like clothing made from animals) – and confusing this with Ethics in General - as if they are the same thing. They really are not.


In any case – here is the problem. You eat the abandoned eggs, you're ethical, but it’s not Vegan. So who cares about being Vegan when you are being ethical and moral, right? The fact is – when you allow any animal products into your diet, you will begin to develop bacteria that both feeds on them, and starts to crave them. So what happens when your hen’s don’t lay enough eggs and you want some eggs? Do you deny yourself? Go to the store and by factory bought? Satisfy yourself that “cage free” was at least “not as bad” ?(it is, basically)


So, in such a scenario, you knew all along that it was likely ethical to eat abandoned eggs from truly free range chickens (not ones you have caged “as pets” just to keep their eggs), but not Vegan, but if for some reasons your chickens aren’t producing the eggs to feed your habit – you’re Ethical decision now leads to another one – will you buy whatever eggs are available no matter how raised if you are craving them?


Vegans don’t have this dilemma. The cravings aren’t there, since they rightly understood that Veganism means conscious abstinence in practice, the extended results of this, combined with enough whole food for the microbiome that feeds on fiber and resistant starch - being lack of cravings for animal products as well as the ethical implications from doing this!

 

[Jenjen]

I do see the point of view that if the hen is ethically kept as a pet then why not? I don't believe that anyone who is truly for the animals will give into 'cravings'. Also, I know the term 'vegan' is no to animal products full stop but also why do people get so hung up on labels? If this is the only animal by product you consume I don't think you should be looked down on.

 

[veganDreama]

It's ok to have chickens as pets but eating eggs isn't vegan. You don't have to throw the eggs away. Just give them to someone who isn't a vegan which means they won't get so many eggs from worse sources such as factory farming.

 

[Forest Nymph]

Not vegan but I would strongly suggest this is the most ethical way to be a vegetarian - like I would call you an "ethical vegetarian" or "strict vegetarian" to identify someone such as yourself. In fact, while some may argue from an animal rights standpoint you should not use animal products at all, no matter how local nor how loved the hens are, I will tell you from a scientific standpoint that what you are doing is considered more environmentally sustainable than some forms of veganism.

Veganism is only the "ultimate" in sustainability when the foods are mostly whole and largely local ....while ANY form of veganism is better than eating meat, and is certainly better than any factory farmed milk or eggs...local dairy actually trumps "vegan products" for the number one spot. It's not a competition though, if someone is vegan they're still more sustainable than most people, and I would also argue that lots of "loca-vore vegetarians" actually still eat things like Tofurky or Gardein products, vegans aren't the only ones buying "products" ...it's just bad to live off of them three meals a day for both health and environment, though it's good for building a veggie economy.

 

[Lou]

Even if your hens are pets, you should not be eating their eggs. Just leave them alone. Hens will lay fewer eggs, be healthier, and live longer if you just leave the eggs alone. Chickens who are taking care of their eggs or chicks stop laying eggs. Just like mammals who don't become pregnant when nursing.

If you harvest the eggs you are exploiting the hens. You are no longer taking care of them because you are a good guy. Instead, you are "charging them for their upkeep". And the price they are paying is their children.

Can you imagine having this conversation about puppies?

Hi all, my name is Ben. I grew up in a rural area, and we always had dogs in our yard. Our dogs were our pets, and they happened to give birth to some very delicious puppies. My siblings and I slaughtered the puppies every three or four months. Deep fried dog was our favorite. but we also enjoyed dog stew and roast dog.


"At Farm Sanctuary, shelter staff collect eggs daily, hard boil them, smash them up (shells and all), and feed them back to the hens to help restore lost nutrients, especially the calcium, which is in the shells. Lack of calcium leads to broken bones, osteoporosis and formation of shell-less eggs (which can be fatal) so it is essential for the health of the birds, especially those rescued from factory farms, to consume the eggs. And, as Susie points out, “It sounds odd to a lot of people, but it is actually not far removed from their natural behavior, as wild chickens will eat broken eggs so they don’t attract predators. Chickens will also naturally eat their own eggs if they are calcium deficient.”

- https://farmsanctuary.typepad.com/making_hay/2009/07/what-about-eggs.html

 

[Nekodaiden]

Not vegan but I would strongly suggest this is the most ethical way to be a vegetarian - like I would call you an "ethical vegetarian" or "strict vegetarian" to identify someone such as yourself.

Strict Vegetarian is the same as Vegan from the dietary perspective of exclusion. The adjective "strict" is applied to a diet of only foods from the Vegetable Kingdom. Obviously that doesn't include animal secretions like eggs and milk or fish. It is sometimes used to distinguish from particular Vegans with a slant towards animal rights.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/strict_vegetarian


Noun
strict vegetarian (plural strict vegetarians)

1. A person who excludes all animal products from their diet, including meat, dairy, eggs, and honey. quotations ▼

Adjective
strict vegetarian (not comparable)

1. Of a diet: excluding all animal products, including meat, dairy, eggs, and honey.

Usage notes
Sometimes distinguished from vegan on grounds of motivation, veganism typically being inspired by support for animal rights.

The animal rights focus of Veganism didn't start with Donald Watson. He encouraged finding alternatives to non-food animal products but diet was the emphasis and it wasn't until he was booted by Leslie Cross that the organization took on a distinctly animal rights focus (and also a decline in membership).

 

[ap1989]

Even if your hens are pets, you should not be eating their eggs. Just leave them alone. Hens will lay fewer eggs, be healthier, and live longer if you just leave the eggs alone. Chickens who are taking care of their eggs or chicks stop laying eggs. Just like mammals who don't become pregnant when nursing.

If you harvest the eggs you are exploiting the hens. You are no longer taking care of them because you are a good guy. Instead, you are "charging them for their upkeep". And the price they are paying is their children.

Can you imagine having this conversation about puppies?

Hi all, my name is Ben. I grew up in a rural area, and we always had dogs in our yard. Our dogs were our pets, and they happened to give birth to some very delicious puppies. My siblings and I slaughtered the puppies every three or four months. Deep fried dog was our favorite. but we also enjoyed dog stew and roast dog.


"At Farm Sanctuary, shelter staff collect eggs daily, hard boil them, smash them up (shells and all), and feed them back to the hens to help restore lost nutrients, especially the calcium, which is in the shells. Lack of calcium leads to broken bones, osteoporosis and formation of shell-less eggs (which can be fatal) so it is essential for the health of the birds, especially those rescued from factory farms, to consume the eggs. And, as Susie points out, “It sounds odd to a lot of people, but it is actually not far removed from their natural behavior, as wild chickens will eat broken eggs so they don’t attract predators. Chickens will also naturally eat their own eggs if they are calcium deficient.”

- https://farmsanctuary.typepad.com/making_hay/2009/07/what-about-eggs.html

I’m sorry but your analogy and comparing it to puppies is absolutely farcical. If someone is keeping hens and not a rooster then the eggs aren’t fertilised and will never become chicks. This is primary school biology.

My mum kept hens for most of my childhood and again when I was a bit older. They suffer no ill effects, emotional or health/physical from the eggs being taken. They continue to lay whether you take them or not. They were beloved pets who lived happy, healthy lives.

 

[Jaydoesitgood]

Chickens also get egg bound extremely easily which is a very life threatening issue. Their organs can prolapse, they suffer mineral deficiencies, and have shortened lifespans from frequent egg laying. All of these are very very bad for animals that you are saying you would like to keep as pets. Yes, they are 'naturally' laid by these chickens, but not at the rate they lay them. The fact is that they have been selectively bread to lay fast and die young and if you are keeping them for eggs that is exactly what they are going to do.
So, what is the vegan thing to do in this case? There is a kind of implant that can be administered to hens that regulates their hormonal laying cycle so that they can live happier longer lives. I THINK its called Suprelorin, but you should ask your avian vet for more info. You wont have to worry about their deficiencies, prolapse, and becoming egg bound. It will lengthen their lives and reduce their pain. Because FACT: Laying eggs HURTS! I would definitely ask your vet about it.

What about the eggs though. Feed them back to the chickens!! Chickens eat their own eggs naturally and it recycles the nutrients that were lost when she produced the egg.

I missread and thought you already had chickens, not had them in the past. IF you are interested in keeping them again, all of this would be good to keep in mind.

 

[ap1989]

Chickens also get egg bound extremely easily which is a very life threatening issue. Their organs can prolapse, they suffer mineral deficiencies, and have shortened lifespans from frequent egg laying. All of these are very very bad for animals that you are saying you would like to keep as pets. Yes, they are 'naturally' laid by these chickens, but not at the rate they lay them. The fact is that they have been selectively bread to lay fast and die young and if you are keeping them for eggs that is exactly what they are going to do.
So, what is the vegan thing to do in this case? There is a kind of implant that can be administered to hens that regulates their hormonal laying cycle so that they can live happier longer lives. I THINK its called Suprelorin, but you should ask your avian vet for more info. You wont have to worry about their deficiencies, prolapse, and becoming egg bound. It will lengthen their lives and reduce their pain. Because FACT: Laying eggs HURTS! I would definitely ask your vet about it.

What about the eggs though. Feed them back to the chickens!! Chickens eat their own eggs naturally and it recycles the nutrients that were lost when she produced the egg.

I missread and thought you already had chickens, not had them in the past. IF you are interested in keeping them again, all of this would be good to keep in mind.

This is the biggest load of nonsense I've ever read I don't even know where to start. Chickens laying does not shorten their lifespan or make the deficient, its what they naturally do. Like all pets/animals they need to be fed a good diet.
Administering an implant however, not natural at all!

As for chickens eating their own eggs, I'm not saying it never happens, but its not commonplace. My family have kept Chickens all my life, my parent have a large garden and we would always discover nests of eggs that we didn't know about with 20+ eggs in at times, the chickens never once ate the eggs or stopped laying because their eggs weren't collecting.

Your post just reads like a desperate attempt to try and find any reason to argue against it just for the sake of it. Homing rescue chickens is a lovely thing to do if you have the space to do so and eating their eggs does no harm whatsoever.

 

[Jaydoesitgood]

This is the biggest load of nonsense I've ever read I don't even know where to start. Chickens laying does not shorten their lifespan or make the deficient, its what they naturally do. Like all pets/animals they need to be fed a good diet.
Administering an implant however, not natural at all!

As for chickens eating their own eggs, I'm not saying it never happens, but its not commonplace. My family have kept Chickens all my life, my parent have a large garden and we would always discover nests of eggs that we didn't know about with 20+ eggs in at times, the chickens never once ate the eggs or stopped laying because their eggs weren't collecting.

Your post just reads like a desperate attempt to try and find any reason to argue against it just for the sake of it. Homing rescue chickens is a lovely thing to do if you have the space to do so and eating their eggs does no harm whatsoever.

It literally does though. Ive been around enough birds to know that egg laying for any species is not something that is supposed to be done on a daily basis. Even birds like cockatiels get egg bound and even prolapsed! Theres hundreds of forums on how to stop your cocakiels from laying eggs BECAUSE it is unhealthy and often dangerous. And you know what youre supposed to do if theyre infertile? Let them eat them.
Another true domestic bird that gets egg bound and has issues with overlaying? Pigeons! Pigeons will continuously lay and have massive health problems if you dont find ways to trick their hormonal cycle. I follow several female pigeon owners who have this problem and it is such a problem that they consider spaying their birds (which is much more dangerous in birds than in mammals).
This is a common issue with female domestic birds and chickens are doubly at risk because they are BRED to lay daily! The only reason we DONT freak out when chickens lay monstorous heaps of eggs is because MMMMM tasty! Its Not. Good. For. Them.

Yes, rehoming birds is good, I dont know where you got the impression you thought I didnt think it was. What im saying is that being a responsible owner means you need to see past what they can produce and what is actually good for their health long term.

 

[ap1989]

It literally does though. Ive been around enough birds to know that egg laying for any species is not something that is supposed to be done on a daily basis. Even birds like cockatiels get egg bound and even prolapsed! And you know what youre supposed to do if theyre infertile? Let them eat them.
Another true domestic bird that gets egg bound and has issues with overlaying? Pigeons! Pigeons will continuously lay and have massive health problems if you dont find ways to trick their hormonal cycle. I follow several female pigeon owners who have this problem and it is such a problem that they consider spaying their birds (which is much more dangerous in birds than in mammals).
This is a common issue with female domestic birds and chickens are doubly at risk because they are BRED to lay daily! The only reason we DONT freak out when chickens lay monstorous heaps of eggs is because MMMMM tasty! Its Not. Good. For. Them.

Yes, rehoming birds is good, I dont know where you got the impression you thought I didnt think it was. What im saying is that being a responsible owner means you need to see past what they can produce and what is actually good for their health long term.

Well you can only speak from your experience and I can only speak from mine. Our pet chickens all lived long happy natural length lives with no health issues at all, especially not associated with laying. They don't always lay every day no one is forcing them too! I would say most of the chickens my family have had over the years would average every other day. And not collecting the eggs 100% made 0 difference to a single one of the chickens laying cycles. So forgive me for being cynical to your claims! They dont eat them!!!

 

[Jaydoesitgood]

Well you can only speak from your experience and I can only speak from mine. Our pet chickens all lived long happy natural length lives with no health issues at all, especially not associated with laying. They don't always lay every day no one is forcing them too! I would say most of the chickens my family have had over the years would average every other day. And not collecting the eggs 100% made 0 difference to a single one of the chickens laying cycles. So forgive me for being cynical to your claims! They dont eat them!!!

Not collecting the eggs with birds like rhode island reds often doesnt do anything, even if you had let a dummy eggs there they probably would have still layed. Thats because theyre bred to continuously lay. Which is why I said the implant would have been a better idea for these breeds of birds. No, its not natural and (im assuming) not cheep, but neither is spaying dogs, rabbits, and cats and people tend not to get up in arms about that kind of thing. All of that spaying also has long term health benefits for these animals aside from not getting pregnant too.

I realize that you loved your chickens, and im glad you did and what happened in the past is the past. You gave them the best life your family knew and that is GENUINELY amazing. Im not trying to insult you or your family by pointing out that these things can be really nasty for birds health. Your chickens lived a good happy life and you should be proud of that. My suggestion is that you keep this in mind if you ever intend to keep female birds again, chicken or otherwise, because it is a genuine medical concern for them.

 

[TofuRobot]

I wouldn't eat the eggs because I'm vegan (#1), and because they are not healthy to eat. It's just not something I would do, even with backyard chickens.

On the topic of how many eggs to backyard chickens lay, it's certainly not absolute, given the comments here that vary from my personal experience. I have a friend that used to give me some of the eggs from his chickens before I stopped eating them. His chickens would lay eggs in cycles. Sometimes they wouldn't lay eggs for weeks. They definitely weren't laying eggs every day, though I'm relatively positive it was more than 20/year.