Animal Rights The Abolitionist Approach to Animal Rights

[prioritarian]

The problem with welfarism is that it makes that which is unnaceptable appear to be acceptable to the unwashed masses.

Because welfarism can refer to the approach not the ultimate goal, tarring all welfarist with the same brush is inaccurate. Most veg*n welfarists (as opposed to omni welfarists) believe animals are not ours to use. Many of those who work in the trenches (e.g. MFA, COK, etc.) are welfarists.

 

[Clueless Git]

Because welfarism can refer to the approach not the ultimate goal, tarring all welfarist with the same brush is inaccurate.

If it is 100% accurate that welfarism makes meat more acceptable (to the 'unwashed masses') then it is 100% accurate to tar welfarism as a whole, and thus 100% of all welfarists, with that particular brush.

This is in the same way that a 100% effect of omnivorism is to cause unnecessary animal suffering so tarring 100% of omnis with the brush of 'being a direct cause of unnecessary animal suffering' is 100% accurate also.

 

[prioritarian]

If it is 100% accurate that welfarism makes meat more acceptable (to the 'unwashed masses') then it is 100% accurate to tar welfarism as a whole, and thus 100% of all welfarists, with that particular brush.

Advocates of veg*nism who are welfarists exist so it's demonstrably not 100% accurate. I also don't like the term unwashed masses. How many of us were not omnivores once? As a utilitarian welfarist I don't look at either omnivorism or veg*nism in black and white terms. There are trivial examples where omnivorism does not cause animal suffering and there are examples of "veg*n" foods that contribute to suffering.

 

[Clueless Git]

Advocates of veg*nism who are welfarists exist so it's demonstrably not 100% accurate.

On that one I'm with those who understand the effects of welfarism well enough to have spent billions on 'happy farm' adverts.

 

[prioritarian]

On that one I'm with those who understand the effects of welfarism well enough to have spent billions on 'happy farm' adverts.

Please provide a single example of a group that advocates for veganism and animal welfare spending "billions" (or even 1 freaking $) on "happy farm" adverts.

 

[Dedalus]

This thread really intrigues me. I struggle with this issue (Welfarism vs Abolitionist) - and there are great observations from the well educated individuals here that make very convincing arguments. But at the end of the day - I still don't feel completely comfortable with either. This is unsettling. Must we choose sides?

On a side note I find it very difficult to find an animal rights advocate with whom I can throw 100% of my support behind. Mostly because each of these advocates trashes the other advocates for one reason or another. (Some of the reasons are justified , others are oddly trivial.)

Is anyone else in the same boat as me on this one?

 

[Clueless Git]

This thread really intrigues me. I struggle with this issue (Welfarism vs Abolitionist) - and there are great observations from the well educated individuals here that make very convincing arguments. But at the end of the day - I still don't feel completely comfortable with either. This is unsettling. Must we choose sides?

Here's how a conversation between an abolitionist and a welfarist works.

Welfarist; I completely agree with you abolitionists that treating our negro slaves cruely is wrong. I don't see anything wrong with keeping negro slaves if we just treat them a bit more nicely though.

Abolitionist: You're a racist cnut. I despise everything you stand for and I'm going to kill you if you don't F**** Off!

Does that answer your question, Ded?

 

[Blobbenstein]

Welfarism does lead to higher and higher costs for the farming industry, which could lead to abolition, though.

As the cost of an egg rises, more and more people will ask themselves 'is it worth it?', or simply can't afford it. Leading society to see chickens less as egg laying machines. Which could lead to more and more people giving up eggs..


ETA: and also it leads to more research into finding replacements. I think if eggs were expensive, and a cheaper vegan alternative could be found, what ordinary cake manufacturer, or mayo manufacturer etc, would use a real egg.? Of course with expensive products they would stick with the real thing, but not with ordinary foods, I think.

 

[Clueless Git]

On a side note I find it very difficult to find an animal rights advocate with whom I can throw 100% of my support behind. Mostly because each of these advocates trashes the other advocates for one reason or another. (Some of the reasons are justified , others are oddly trivial.)

Is anyone else in the same boat as me on this one?

Despite the above post I, an abolitionist, have some sympathy with welfarists.

The fact that abolitionism will end human interaction (as we know it) with animals, both for better and for worse, is real.

The fact that benign human ownership may afford animals a better life and a more humane death than nature might provide is very real as well.

 

[ledboots]

CG, please don't use that kind of language here, even if misspelled to avoid censors. It's gross, and there are kids reading this.

Dedalus, you put into words exactly how I feel about this. I want the abolition now, but will settle for baby steps.

 

[Clueless Git]

CG, please don't use that kind of language here, even if misspelled to avoid censors. It's gross, and there are kids reading this.

Am I still allowed to post while wearing my FCUK shirt?

 

[Blobbenstein]

only on cup final day.

 

[Dedalus]

Here's how a conversation between an abolitionist and a welfarist works.

Welfarist; I completely agree with you abolitionists that treating our negro slaves cruely is wrong. I don't see anything wrong with keeping negro slaves if we just treat them a bit more nicely though.

Abolitionist: You're a racist cnut. I despise everything you stand for and I'm going to kill you if you don't F**** Off!

Does that answer your question, Ded?

LOL I can always count on you CG, to cut through the noise! It illustrates the debate conversations (not really here, but overall) pretty well - but no, it doesn't answer my question, or solve the dilemma. (I do appreciate the analogy though - made me laugh.)

 

[Dedalus]

Since I didn't get a response on this thread in 30 seconds, like I expected I did some further research of my own and found another, very interesting back and forth debate on the subject.

Discussion of the terms Abolitionist, Welfarist, and Animal Rights | Veganise Me

It's quite long - but in my opinion, WELL worth reading. It is like the debate here - so much so that you can practically assign our VV members who participated/posted to their counterparts in the article above who are arguing the same ideas. (Pickle Juice and MLP for sure.) But there are lots of additional, very compelling and astute points on both sides.

I think I've learned so much in the past 7 days thinking and reading about this that I feel ashamed to be late arriving so late to the party. I feel like I have been in the dark for quite some time. I had a conversation with a vegan friend of mine about this that went something like this:

Ded: So as far as veganism, where do you stand? Are you with the 'new' welfarists or are you abolitionist?
Rich: What the hell are you talking about? (Rich has been vegan a lot longer than I have.)

BTW: I really miss PJ and MLP. Damn them for leaving. In a good way I mean, not really damn them.

 

[Dedalus]

The fact that benign human ownership may afford animals a better life and a more humane death than nature might provide is very real as well.

Francione is in favor of human ownership / adoption of animals - which is awesome, but also confuses me because of the welfarist contradiction. Or am I misunderstanding that?

 

[Dedalus]

This kind of situation plagues me (as a bizarre example):

Neutral Party: I have a truck full of baby calves. I am on my way to the slaughterhouse. If you like, I will instead drive them to a well-known, corporate sponsored farm sanctuary. Yes spares their lives, any other answer and they will be veal in an hour.

New Welfarist: YES - for Chrissakes! Spare them.

Abolitionists: Go vegan.

Is this unfair? Off the mark?

 

[Calliegirl]

I just can't agree with the all or nothing abolitionists approach. This is how I see it:

Factory Farmer - We've agreed to stop using gestation crates, and giving the hens more space.
Abolitionist - No thanks. We want you to stop factory farming period, and until then, we don't want any changes to animal welfare laws.

Given a choice, I'm sure the animals would agree with small improvements until factory farming ends. It's really easy for an abolitionist to say no to any animal welfare improvements when they're not the ones doing the suffering.

 

[Blobbenstein]

I think some abolitionists might quite prefer things to stay the same. Their identity may be based on this 'pure' philosophy. If the world went vegan then they may feel less unique....I think, to some extent, that applies to lots of causes.

 

[ledboots]

I saw on the news last night that a truck with 2000, yes, two THOUSAND piglets in it wrecked. Hundreds of piglets died. Video showed others running around; I hope some escaped.

The news anchor said, "After a health check, the surviving piglets were on their way." WTH! Health check?!?!

 

[KLS52]

I just saw it this morning.