Using the race card or a slavery analogy to help animals?

[Forest Nymph]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2106757/PETA-killed-95-adoptable-dogs-cats-care-year.html

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/nathan-j-winograd/peta-kills-puppies-kittens_b_2979220.html

This is what concerns me about PETA, looks great but then they go and do things like this. They will probably deny it ? But they lie and spin so much can you believe them?

Also where does all their money go? They get alot of money and it doesnt cost much to do media stuff, Im not sure how moral PETA is I have serious doubts.

I'm just really curious how long you've actually been a vegan. One of my friends isn't even vegan, she is a 20+ year ethical vegetarian who runs a no-kill cat shelter in the back of her home (a really nice one, the cats run around a big room and can go on a screened-in porch, not in cages) and she's been a member of PETA for almost two decades.

PETA has a series of steps which they follow in getting companion animals adopted. They offer low cost and free services for spay/neuter to working class people in the Appalachias, they rescue some of those animals as well - but in less severe cases they provide straw, bedding, toys, food and build houses for dogs. When they do have to rescue, they evaluate the case and go through a series of taking animals to no-kill and traditional shelters, before keeping the ones that neither will take. They have to euthanize the sickest and most unwanted ones because they're suffering so badly, or they're so unwanted because of severe behavioral issues (usually fighting dogs). PETA only euthanizes as a last resort and is solving problems other people cause. It beggars all belief that you actually think I don't know about these ignorant PETA-attacking articles that tend to circulate because they're desperate to get something on PETA (and the truth is they really can't).

What does their money go to? International animal rescue, web design, commercials, pamphlets, leaflets, posters, clothes, calendars, free or low-cost spay/neuter, companion animal shelters, farmed animal sanctuaries, and of course the millions of dollars it requires to have one of the best legal teams in the United States which shuts down major animal testing labs and circuses, and stock-investment profiles into companies so they are stake-holders who can attend board meetings and make differences from within.

It's understandable to question PETA, but it's kind of ludicrous that you as a vegan would make comments like these without actually thoroughly researching PETA as an organization and instead just Googling some HuffPost articles, lol.

 

[Forest Nymph]

I will no longer post on this thread, since keeping it alive seems to be feeding the troll and causing increasingly racist posts. I only hope that those who were unable to recognize his racism give some further thought to why a Holocaust survivor's statements do not provide an across-the-board justification for disrespecting and exploiting every other minority's struggle.

So 6 million Jewish people being slowly starved to death, gassed or burned for their race is really nothing in the face of institutional racism against other people of color?

I'm trying to understand what your point is here. Native Americans were murdered in the US through systemic genocide, Jewish people were murdered through genocide, and yes people of color were subjected to slavery, and other minorities are generally exposed to discrimination. I don't think anyone is down-playing that people of color have a unique struggle, but acting like the Holocaust is some light event that pales in comparison to what black people go through is borderline funny in its pretentiousness.

I agree with you that Sam is probably some immature kid and that the way he phrases things is racist, but he's getting at the topic of Speciesism..and you appear to be a Humanist. You can't be Humanist and Anti-Speciesist. You're never going to agree if you're inherently speciesist.

Even Peter Singer used this analogy in his classic Animal Liberation in the 1970s. It's not just Sam or this thread.

 

[Forest Nymph]

The first post in this thread has nothing with a Holocaust survivor comparing what is happening to animals to the Holocaust. My post was, indeed, worded carefully to prevent people from bringing up the unrelated example of the Holocaust survivor, but some people are clearly too anxious to make what they think is a clever point to bother to read things carefully.

The OP advocates exploiting the suffering of a group of people, without that group's permission, in order to advance an unrelated cause. The people in question are still suffering from gross discrimination. The last thing they need right now is to have their struggle for equality be exploited for other purposes. If you cannot see why this is offensive, you are much too focused on veganism to recognize the seriousness of other forms of discrimination.

The OP's goal, I am certain, was to make vegans look bad by provoking exactly the types of defense of his racism as have been posted in this thread. Veganism, at its core, is about respecting all living beings. Condoning the exploitation of minorities is anti-vegan at heart. My expression of disgust at the OP has nothing to do with speciesism. It has everything to do with respect, which is what is absent from all of the OP's posts.

Saying that factory farming is worse than slavery is like saying that murder is worse than rape. It's like saying that torture followed by murder is worse than just murder. It's like saying armed robbery is worse than homophobia. No good can come of making this type of comparison. And the OP knows that.

I agree that some of the ways he is phrasing things sounds racist but he's a Vegan Gains follower, they're very different. I actually follow VG on YouTube - he's a completely misanthropic, anti-natalist, half-black (lol), environmentalist and militant vegan. I wouldn't be able to stand him probably in person because of his right wing leanings, but I agree with his ferocity on the environment and veganism, and understand his misanthropy.

You're actually being too presumptuous in claiming veganism is inherently "liberal" because it's not. There are pro-life and pro-choice vegans. There are right and left wing vegans. There are vegans who think "intersectionality" distracts from animal rights - like Ghost Vegan, he is so awesome, I really love that guy and he is old school, he doesn't think veganism should have anything to do with humanism. We disagree on some of the environmental aspects, but he gets outright angry at people who try to make veganism about feminism or race or anything except basically humans being a disease destroying the planet (because they are).

There's a strong possibility Sam is a misanthrope. He's also probably about 20. But I don't know that he's necessarily "trolling to make vegans look bad" that's a bit of a stretch. You seem to be an intersectional vegan. That's cool, but not everyone is.

 

[Vegan Dogs]

It depends how one presents the argument is my view. Trying to say ..x or y is better or worse than a or b is not a good idea imho. because then that creates a hierachy of who is more important...would apply if comparing women rights to slavery rights...no one issue is more or less important than the other should be the point or we get into saying which people think is or is not.

On uk tv currently is much talk about women rights and the suggragettes fights...the violence done against them simply for wanting a vote politically.

now...i did make reference to animals in my facebook comment first on this enormous violence the establishment used at the time...in the context of saying...POWER is used against the weak always easily so animals are used easily by humans as they are weaker and do not speak our language. I said we would do the same to aliens if ever they landed on our planet.

It is dangerous to try saying...animals matter as much as humans...other animals that is...of course we all naturally thin WE are numero uno ...but that does not exclude compassion for others...

The issue that is worth mentioning is this...it took TIME for ATTITUDES to slaves or women etc to CHANGE...and it is the SAME for attitudes to animals...attitudes are hard and cruel towards the weak until humans use their brains hearts and morals to think again.

we used to have GLADIATORS killing other humans...we have had CANIBALISM in history also...as cultural norms...i make those analogies to say...attitudes...to animals are similar in that we treat other living creatures with contempt if they are weak and we have the POWER to do so

I do not think it is insulting jews or blacks or other human sections of society to say...the issue of struggling to change attitudes is similar for the attitudes to other animals...now some might think using the word "animals" relating to "humans" is offensive...again i say...depends HOW it is stated...but we ARE all "animals" is worth mentioning...

i give an example...good and bad statements...

first the bad...
1. animals like blacks, jews, women etc suffered discrimination in history and still now greatly and it is the same for chickens pigs sheep etc.

better way of putting it...

2. we have been cruel and unjust to our own species in history such as women blacks jews etc and still today...it is a similar issue regarding our disregard for other animal rights regarding their basic right to LIFE and not be BRED by us humans for our needs as "things" of utility at our disposal.

i just suggest...telling the truth and talking about ATTITUDES to the WEAKER is the issue here rather than saying...which of those categories mentioned had greater worth..

i thought about...does this insult the human sectors mentioned ? well the intention is not to insult them of course...but it could easily if worded badly is my point.

ps ref Sam motives...seeing comment on his other posts...it does seem to be maybe a case as someone else mentioned possible...the "young turk" syndrome. charging like a bull in chinashop into controversial issues as the idealistic young often do with gusto. passion. or a troll ? both possible...but...i am just off SPATS with self professed VEGANS making the most hostile and vitriolic judgemental comments on vegans who feed their dogs and cats vegans...and ? they are the worst and some think they are not real vegans but encouraged by the alarmed petood industry trolls out to discredit vegan petfoods.

so my final point for Sam is ? if genuine as we would prefer to think positively of you....then bear in mind the "passion" of the young often gets you into hot water and causes rows and negative reactions depending how you word things. easy for ME an oldie to say lol and i "lose my rag" often still i add...there is still "fire" in this old hag lol...example ? on the latest METRO spats yesterday about vegan petfoods...face with being told it was "animal abuse" and i should be arrested...i lashed back telling those people to go to jail themselves prats, twats...and nothing illegal to feed an animal nutrition of any kind so reporting people to rspca etc animal protection organisations was idiotic suggestion...rather than reporting the billions of animals bred and killed in farms. yes things get "hot" over petfood. people think making judgemental comments like that ok and not recognising the ENORMOUS deaths caused that are UNNECESSARY since there are many thousands of vet approved vegan fed dogs and cats !

ps i reserved the most vitriolic response i add to some VEGAN who came on MY vegan dogs page and made a hostile comment about feeding them vegan...MY DOGS WENT VEGAN BEFORE ME TO CURE STOMAC ULCERS CAUSED BY TOO MUCH ACID TO DIGEST FLESH PROBLEM ! then i went vegan so CUT THE CRAP about forcing any IDEOLOGY on my dog you ****...etc etc. yep. i "let rip" lol

 

[Sax]

I think there's a lot of validity to the analogy and it can be powerful among those those who are already inclined to agree with you.

But it has the potential to be genuinely offensive to some, and others may treat it as a third-rail to cast you as a bad guy and discredit your message.

I think it's best to appeal to people's innate empathy for animals (and I do believe it's innate, no matter how deeply buried under cultural conditioning) and leave human injustice and suffering out of it.

 

[poivron]

So 6 million Jewish people being slowly starved to death, gassed or burned for their race is really nothing in the face of institutional racism against other people of color?

I'm trying to understand what your point is here. Native Americans were murdered in the US through systemic genocide, Jewish people were murdered through genocide, and yes people of color were subjected to slavery, and other minorities are generally exposed to discrimination. I don't think anyone is down-playing that people of color have a unique struggle, but acting like the Holocaust is some light event that pales in comparison to what black people go through is borderline funny in its pretentiousness.

Way to twist my argument. I never argued any of what you claim above. My entire point is that one cannot compare the suffering of one group to the suffering of another group. In fact, what is pretentious is believing oneself to be so omniscient as to be able to make such comparisons.

 

[Consistency]

I use the enslavement card all the time when meat eaters try to get a reaction out of me like they expect me to care when it is them eating the meat from enslaved animals. Gets them to really see that it's their issue and not mine. They are promoting bad behavior.

I also tell them that lettuce has micronutrients that aren't found in meat when they complain about back pain. My brother was a big meat eater that has reduced his meat consumption greatly by understanding the importance of big salad.

 

[Forest Nymph]

Way to twist my argument. I never argued any of what you claim above. My entire point is that one cannot compare the suffering of one group to the suffering of another group. In fact, what is pretentious is believing oneself to be so omniscient as to be able to make such comparisons.

Suffering is suffering and exploitation is exploitation, most vegans are keenly aware of this fact which is why they're vegans.

 

[nobody]

Would that work does anyone try it?

There are alot of similarities between the two, both animals and slaves were owned, used abused, they both suffer, they both have feelings emotional and physical. Both of what should be basic rights are torn apart.

On top of that the race card is extremely persuasive and taboo, it has massive political and social power.

Has PETA or anyone simlar tried that line of campaigning?

PETA has compared the oppression of animals to that of slaves.

And as I mentioned previously, people make the analogy to the oppression of Jews during the Holocaust. Here is one like that for 'humane meat' propaganda.

The caption for these pictures:

A comparison of like forms of propaganda, not victims. Top photo of Nazi propaganda, presenting Jewish children in the Theresienstadt ghetto taken during an inspection by the International Red Cross, showing them singing patriotic songs, well-dressed, well-fed and living in good conditions, all the while hiding the fact that they would soon be gassed to death. Bottom photo of farmer with one of his lambs, showing her happy, healthy and loved, and concealing the fact that she will be violently killed in her adolescent age to become the meat products from which the farmer makes a living.

 

[Forest Nymph]

PETA has compared the oppression of animals to that of slaves.

And as I mentioned previously, people make the analogy to the oppression of Jews during the Holocaust. Here is one like that for 'humane meat' propaganda.

The caption for these pictures:

Not to mention that there was also slave labor in Auschwitz death camps, some victims were literally worked to death if they were young and strong enough to work when they arrived. Slavery isn't an isolated incident that only happened to African Americans, human slavery happened in ancient Egypt, there was slavery in Stalin's gulag, and it still happens in Iraq, Syria, North Korea and West Africa today. Then of course there's sexual slavery.

Dexter Scott King, Martin Luther King Jrs son, is a prominent vegan animal rights activist. I don't think it's an insult to a particular race of people in general to compare industrial agriculture to slavery. I'm a woman and I'm not offended when people say that egg and milk farming is rape and exploitation of female reproductive systems. It is.

Many Jewish people who survived the Holocaust became vegetarians. It's absolutely horrifying how much factory farming mirrors it - the systemic torture, the separation, killing those who aren't "useful" and using the "useful" until they are broken, taking and using whatever consumer product they possibly can from the corpses, even the "humane" way the SS wouldn't tell the elderly or mothers of small children they were about to be gassed, they'd pretend that they should remember where they hung their clothes before the sauna...it goes so far beyond the propaganda.

The United States adapted a lot of SS technology after the Allies defeated the Nazis. Operation Paper Clip gave us such joys as subliminal advertising, and it's also what gave us factory farming as we know it today. It's the best metaphor for factory farming because it's true.

 

[brownmetalhead]

There are inherent comparisons between the genocides and oppressions throughout history. The comparisons can be made quite easily (my heritage is Indian) and I've used it to explain how oppression can extend to animals. My favourite comparison to make is the holocaust one, not because I get some sick pleasure out of trying to retraumatize people who've been affected by it, but because I have a background in history, and point how that the death camps in the Holocaust were designed by looking at blue prints of slaughterhouses. There's a book about it called Eternal Treblinka and its some dark stuff.

 

[Sax]

A lot of this discussion seems to be about whether the analogy is accurate. But being right and being persuasive are two different things.

I think the real question is: is the analogy useful, in terms of nudging non-vegans closer to our point of view?

"Meat is murder" is a simple fact among vegans. But it sounds unreasonable to the majority. For those people, "Meat is slavery and genocide" may be taken as a sign that they're talking to an out-of-touch extremist whose views can be dismissed. I'm not saying the analogy should never be deployed, but before using it in a particular situation maybe ask yourself if it's likely to do more harm than good.

If we're as right as we think we are, if the moral chasm between veganism and carnism is as wide as we believe, it should be easy to point that out without following the lead of a doofus in a political debate that goes straight for the hitler analogy.

 

[brownmetalhead]

A lot of this discussion seems to be about whether the analogy is accurate. But being right and being persuasive are two different things.

I think the real question is: is the analogy useful, in terms of nudging non-vegans closer to our point of view?

"Meat is murder" is a simple fact among vegans. But it sounds unreasonable to the majority. For those people, "Meat is slavery and genocide" may be taken as a sign that they're talking to an out-of-touch extremist whose views can be dismissed. I'm not saying the analogy should never be deployed, but before using it in a particular situation maybe ask yourself if it's likely to do more harm than good.

If we're as right as we think we are, if the moral chasm between veganism and carnism is as wide as we believe, it should be easy to point that out without following the lead of a doofus in a political debate that goes straight for the hitler analogy.

Absolutely agree. Context and awareness of who you're speaking to is always necessary. Most of the people that I bring up the holocaust comparison happened to be fellow graduate students or older undergraduate students. Even some of my friends that know me better and are history buffs will respond a bit better. Some random person on the street would probably just say "you're disrespecting Jews and thsoe that are affected by the Holocaust".