Vegans Have a Moral Duty to Have Children

[Huckleberry]

Not sure what you mean by "pro life" here. I support everyones right to live as they see fit, without incurring harm to others. This includes the choice to have children, if you are able to care for them, or not to have children.
For animals that we have domesticated I support sterilisation as that is mitigating the harm we have caused by bringing wild animals into our lives that can't fend for themselves
Not sure what you mean by encouraging people to not have children, although I certainly see where it should be discouraged.
For so many women having children greatly increases the likelihood of generational poverty and dependence on welfare

So you want to discourage women in modern countries from having children while encouraging people from premodern countries to emigrate??

That’s a great plan to destroy modernity and any concern for animal rights.

 

[majorbloodnok]

Don’t you see that unrestricted immigration allows misogynistic societies to export their problems? Those “responsible, inclusive hands” won’t exist in a few generations. Why don’t you and your “responsible, inclusive hands” head to one of these misogynistic countries and try to do some good?

I wonder if you forget that every migrant is a fully formed human being with loves, hopes and fears, and at least in the eyes of the society in which I live they also have a handful of basic inalienable human rights such as the right to exist.

I am not so naive as to believe immigration should be a free-for-all, and fully appreciate the need for immigration controls (for example to stop known criminals or known safety threats to have free movement). However, migration is not used by societies to export their problems; they don't acknowledge they have a problem. Taking a look at the efforts many such societies undertake in order to try and keep those we see as victims from emigrating and remain under that society's control is probably the best demonstration of this.

On a separate note, I've been disagreeing with you on a topic. My arguments have focused on the thing under discussion. You have now changed your focus to me, not the points I've raised. Asking why "I and my responsible, inclusive hands...." don't do something is getting personal and, as such, rude. I will report the post as such. Even so, what makes you feel I am not already attempting to "do some good" or, more accurately, make a tangible difference? And no, I won't be answering that for several reasons but firstly because you chose to assume rather than gather your facts.

Please in future refrain from personal attacks.

 

[Huckleberry]

I wonder if you forget that every migrant is a fully formed human being with loves, hopes and fears, and at least in the eyes of the society in which I live they also have a handful of basic inalienable human rights such as the right to exist.

I am not so naive as to believe immigration should be a free-for-all, and fully appreciate the need for immigration controls (for example to stop known criminals or known safety threats to have free movement). However, migration is not used by societies to export their problems; they don't acknowledge they have a problem. Taking a look at the efforts many such societies undertake in order to try and keep those we see as victims from emigrating and remain under that society's control is probably the best demonstration of this.

On a separate note, I've been disagreeing with you on a topic. My arguments have focused on the thing under discussion. You have now changed your focus to me, not the points I've raised. Asking why "I and my responsible, inclusive hands...." don't do something is getting personal and, as such, rude. I will report the post as such. Even so, what makes you feel I am not already attempting to "do some good" or, more accurately, make a tangible difference? And no, I won't be answering that for several reasons but firstly because you chose to assume rather than gather your facts.

Please in future refrain from personal attacks.

Misogynistic societies do export their problems.

Female Genital Mutilation/Cutting in the United States: Updated Estimates of Women and Girls at Risk, 2012 - PMC

In 1996, the U.S. Congress passed legislation making female genital mutilation/cutting (FGM/C) illegal in the United States. CDC published the first estimates of the number of women and girls at risk for FGM/C in 1997. Since 2012, various ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Please acknowledge your error.

I did not “attack” you.

 

[Huckleberry]

Here’s the way forward:

Restrict immigration

Tax meat

Ban meat advertising

End poverty & bring down the birthrate in Africa

End war

20 members of Congress personally invest in top weapons contractors that'll profit from the just-passed $40 billion Ukraine aid package

War is "big business to our leaders," says Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene, one of 20 lawmakers Insider identified with defense industry investments.

www.businessinsider.com

Rewilding

Climate positive | Rewilding Europe

rewildingeurope.com

 

[majorbloodnok]

Misogynistic societies do export their problems.

Female Genital Mutilation/Cutting in the United States: Updated Estimates of Women and Girls at Risk, 2012 - PMC

In 1996, the U.S. Congress passed legislation making female genital mutilation/cutting (FGM/C) illegal in the United States. CDC published the first estimates of the number of women and girls at risk for FGM/C in 1997. Since 2012, various ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Please acknowledge your error.

The article you linked to shows migration between culturally different areas means an intermingling of those cultures. FGM appearing in the US is not an exported problem, it's a cultural norm in one country travelling with the migrants to another country that doesn't support it. You see the practice as a problem, and I happen to agree with that view. However, that alone doesn't make us right; other viewpoints are available and if you don't listen to them you can't argue against them.

If you want to stop FGM then the last thing you should be doing is forcing women back to the country that allows it. Can you not see that maintaining cultural sensitivity whilst increasing dialogue is the only way to maintain communication and change minds. You can't change attitudes without communication and you can't communicate if you're constantly pushing away. Far from acknowledging I've made an error, I am more convinced than before that the approach I'm expounding stands a better chance of improving people's quality of life than any amount of keeping other countries' attitudes at arm's length.

I did not “attack” you.

Switching from "I believe that viewpoint is wrong and here are my arguments" to "why don't you go somewhere and do something" is the very definition of getting personal and saying you didn't changes nothing.

 

[majorbloodnok]

Here’s the your idea of a way forward:

Restrict immigration

As discussed above, far from a settled point.

Tax meat

Before taxing meat, how about just removing the subsidies? It'd be interesting to see how market forces would shape meat consumption if people simply had to pay what it cost to produce the meat in the first place. My guess is removing subsidies would raise the cost of meat higher than the Government would dare tax it, at least in the UK.

Ban meat advertising

Of course, that worked a treat for tobacco didn't it?

Advertising is a cost and no business wants a cost. The only reason companies advertise is to avoid competitors gaining an advantage, so the cost does nothing more than maintain the status quo. If you ban advertising you simply make sure all companies in that industry have lower costs whilst still maintaining the status quo. Ironically, that could make meat cheaper and therefore less likely that people would give it up.

End poverty & bring down the birthrate in Africa

Only a small wish-list, then....

Any ideas on how to achieve these or is a magic wand involved? And, if you do have ideas, do they involve dialogue with said countries? (see comments in earlier post about how to promote communication between cultures) By ideas, btw, I don't just mean posting links to articles about not making the problem worse; I mean actual ideas that might work our way towards a solution.

 

[Huckleberry]

You see the practice as a problem, and I happen to agree with that view. However, that alone doesn't make us right; other viewpoints are available and if you don't listen to them you can't argue against them.

If you want to stop FGM then the last thing you should be doing is forcing women back to the country that allows it.

Opposing the mutilation of girls is more than just one available viewpoint. Surely you maintain that some practices or behaviors are abhorrent and should be universally condemned.

How about serial killers, should we establish a dialogue with them? Should we maintain sensitivity to their approach?

I am saying we should not import whole societies or significant fractions thereof who practice said abhorrent behaviors and resist efforts at reform.

 

[Huckleberry]

As discussed above, far from a settled point.


Before taxing meat, how about just removing the subsidies? It'd be interesting to see how market forces would shape meat consumption if people simply had to pay what it cost to produce the meat in the first place. My guess is removing subsidies would raise the cost of meat higher than the Government would dare tax it, at least in the UK.


Of course, that worked a treat for tobacco didn't it?

Advertising is a cost and no business wants a cost. The only reason companies advertise is to avoid competitors gaining an advantage, so the cost does nothing more than maintain the status quo. If you ban advertising you simply make sure all companies in that industry have lower costs whilst still maintaining the status quo. Ironically, that could make meat cheaper and therefore less likely that people would give it up.


Only a small wish-list, then....

Any ideas on how to achieve these or is a magic wand involved? And, if you do have ideas, do they involve dialogue with said countries? (see comments in earlier post about how to promote communication between cultures) By ideas, btw, I don't just mean posting links to articles about not making the problem worse; I mean actual ideas that might work our way towards a solution.

Ad bans help reduce tobacco use.

Banning tobacco advertising, sponsorship and promotion

Tobacco kills nearly six million of its users each year. This means that, in order to maintain or increase sales and profits, the tobacco industry must attract new customers to replace those who die or manage to quit. To achieve this goal, tobacco companies spend tens of billions of US...

www.who.int

 

[majorbloodnok]

Opposing the mutilation of girls is more than just one available viewpoint. Surely you maintain that some practices or behaviors are abhorrent and should be universally condemned.

I do indeed, but in order to get compliance you need discussion leading to agreement. If you don't do it that way and try to dictate then it's just a battle of who has the bigger arsenal or bank balance, and the culture that is forced into submission will claim victimisation instead of having to face its demons.

I am saying we should not import whole societies or significant fractions thereof who practice said abhorrent behaviors.

One of the examples you gave was an article on a news site claiming 46% of French Muslims feel Sharia law should be incorporated into the French legal system. I assume you see that as an abhorrent behaviour? I'd be interested, incidentally, as to how differently you see the acceptability of incorporating Muslim religious law from that of incorporating Christian religious law (quite a few examples of which have made the headlines in the past year).

What your quoted article also says, though, when you look at the detail is that it's 46% of foreign-born French Muslims who take that stance. This contrasts with 18% of French-born French Muslims. My takeaway here is that the acceptance of one culture into another has modified that particular believe to the tune of a 28% swing away from the imported view and more in line with the host country. See? Immigration works.

 

[majorbloodnok]

.....
How about serial killers, should we establish a dialogue with them? Should we maintain sensitivity to their approach?
.....

That's a facile argument. Show me a culture that promotes serial killing and I might agree, but every culture I know of sees that action as destructive and therefore appropriate to try to stamp out.

I'm not advocating sensitivity to the practice, just sensitivity to the culture whose views you're trying to change.

 

[Huckleberry]

That's a facile argument. Show me a culture that promotes serial killing and I might agree, but every culture I know of sees that action as destructive and therefore appropriate to try to stamp out.

I'm not advocating sensitivity to the practice, just sensitivity to the culture whose views you're trying to change.

Some cultures think highly of Obama.

More Kids Droned By Obama Than By All Nobel Prize Winners Combined

Former President Barack Obama's dark legacy will be the drone strikes that killed thousands of women and children.

newspunch.com

 

[majorbloodnok]

Some cultures think highly of Obama.

More Kids Droned By Obama Than By All Nobel Prize Winners Combined

Former President Barack Obama's dark legacy will be the drone strikes that killed thousands of women and children.

newspunch.com

In that case, if I wanted to push for Obama to be tried then yes I would have to avoid simply denouncing America as an arrogant and condescending warmonger. Yes, there are cliches about the US wading into conflicts with heavy boots and automatic weapon diplomacy, but none of that rhetoric would convince anyone to hold the person at the top to account.

Interestingly, the alternative approach (dare I say culturally sensitive) that the US has taken with regard to collaboration with Nato around the Ukraine conflict has gained much praise and changed many opinions about America's potential for humility. Once again, communication works.

Any more examples?

 

[Huckleberry]

I do indeed, but in order to get compliance you need discussion leading to agreement. If you don't do it that way and try to dictate then it's just a battle of who has the bigger arsenal or bank balance, and the culture that is forced into submission will claim victimisation instead of having to face its demons.


One of the examples you gave was an article on a news site claiming 46% of French Muslims feel Sharia law should be incorporated into the French legal system. I assume you see that as an abhorrent behaviour? I'd be interested, incidentally, as to how differently you see the acceptability of incorporating Muslim religious law from that of incorporating Christian religious law (quite a few examples of which have made the headlines in the past year).

What your quoted article also says, though, when you look at the detail is that it's 46% of foreign-born French Muslims who take that stance. This contrasts with 18% of French-born French Muslims. My takeaway here is that the acceptance of one culture into another has modified that particular believe to the tune of a 28% swing away from the imported view and more in line with the host country. See? Immigration works.

Keep telling yourself that.

French Suburbs Becoming 'Separate Islamic Societies'

France's decrepit city suburbs are becoming 'separate Islamic societies' cut off from the state, according to a major new study that examines the spread of Islam in France. Muslim immigrants are increasingly rejecting French values and identity and

kern.pundicity.com

 

[Huckleberry]

In that case, if I wanted to push for Obama to be tried then yes I would have to avoid simply denouncing America as an arrogant and condescending warmonger. Yes, there are cliches about the US wading into conflicts with heavy boots and automatic weapon diplomacy, but none of that rhetoric would convince anyone to hold the person at the top to account.

Interestingly, the alternative approach (dare I say culturally sensitive) that the US has taken with regard to collaboration with Nato around the Ukraine conflict has gained much praise and changed many opinions about America's potential for humility. Once again, communication works.

Any more examples?

Sure. There’s the British.

Churchill's policies to blame for millions of Indian famine deaths, study says | CNN

Winston Churchill’s policies caused a famine that claimed more than 3 million Indian lives, according to a new study using soil analysis for the first time to prove the origins of the disaster.

www.cnn.com

How Britain’s Labour Govt Facilitated Massacre of Biafrans in Nigeria – To Protect its Oil Interests

Declassified British files show that Harold Wilson’s government secretly armed and backed Nigeria’s aggression against the secessionist region, Mark Curtis reports. By Mark Curtis Declassified UK On the 50th anniversary of the end of the Biafran war, the world’s worst humanitarian crisis i

consortiumnews.com

 

[Huckleberry]

In that case, if I wanted to push for Obama to be tried then yes I would have to avoid simply denouncing America as an arrogant and condescending warmonger. Yes, there are cliches about the US wading into conflicts with heavy boots and automatic weapon diplomacy, but none of that rhetoric would convince anyone to hold the person at the top to account.

Interestingly, the alternative approach (dare I say culturally sensitive) that the US has taken with regard to collaboration with Nato around the Ukraine conflict has gained much praise and changed many opinions about America's potential for humility. Once again, communication works.

Any more examples?

About Ukraine: Neocons bent on starting another disaster in Ukraine

 

[majorbloodnok]

Keep telling yourself that.

Until you refute it, of course I will.

The link you gave wasn't even to the report but just a media article on the report. Hmm, reliable?

The report it quotes, incidentally, is rather more reliable in that it was written by respected authorities. Nonetheless, it was written in 2011 and covered far more than the "Muslimification" to which you're referring. In the intervening decade and a bit, that particular forecast has not come to pass in the way the authors predicted, so we can report on historical fact now rather than future supposition as it was then.

So far you have still to come up with any real substance to your theories.

 

[majorbloodnok]

Sure. There’s the British.

Churchill's policies to blame for millions of Indian famine deaths, study says | CNN

Winston Churchill’s policies caused a famine that claimed more than 3 million Indian lives, according to a new study using soil analysis for the first time to prove the origins of the disaster.

www.cnn.com

How Britain’s Labour Govt Facilitated Massacre of Biafrans in Nigeria – To Protect its Oil Interests

Declassified British files show that Harold Wilson’s government secretly armed and backed Nigeria’s aggression against the secessionist region, Mark Curtis reports. By Mark Curtis Declassified UK On the 50th anniversary of the end of the Biafran war, the world’s worst humanitarian crisis i

consortiumnews.com

What's your point? That the United Kingdom has been complicit in multiple social disasters, war crimes and elitist Imperialism? I know, and I along with many other Brits do my utmost to pressure for those things not to be repeated. If you want to indulge in some Brit-bashing, just let me know and I can provide far better ammunition.

Nonetheless, how does this affect any discussion about immigration and/or cultural sensitivity? I'm a Brit and I can be as vociferous as I want for or against the British Establishment without any fear of cultural misunderstandings.

 

[Second Summer]

MOD POST
The moderator team has decided that this thread has reached a stage of discussion where it's a good time to permanently close it. The thread seems to have run its course, and different points of views have been stated, argued for & against, but we have now gone a bit off-topic and entered into more controversial territory that we (moderators) simply do not want to have to monitor & moderate.