OP
OP
We are slaves to pleasure
- Thread starter Oluwamuyiwa
- Start date
Jamie in Chile
Forum Legend
- Joined
- Jan 3, 2016
- Reaction score
- 1,852
- Age
- 44
- Lifestyle
- Vegetarian
Thank you very much for sharing your insights on Nigeria on this and the other thread.
OP
OP
You are welcome, I am glad to share.
Look forward to sharing more, and learning about other countries and how veganism is perceived within their culture.
FoodMaster777
Newcomer
I agree but I don´t like your pesimistic approach, you are your own counter argument. If pleasure for food leads to death how come you and so many people are able to overcome it? There´s also a big difference between death and raping since the first is a passive activity and the second is active. The 99% of males are not rapists, so maybe if each of us had to kill our own food there would be a 99% of vegetarian population.
OP
OP
Maybe I am pessimistic, look around you, there's nothing new under the sun, so what's so glorious about life. I never claim to have overcome pleasure, it's an ongoing battle I face daily, it's a battle I would carry to my grave. Now, whether you eat meat or not, death is the final destination, doesn't that then paints the picture that pleasure for food leads to death, isn't that the common fate of all men even if you eat or you don't?
I noticed you keep twisting words you don't seem to understand, you could have asked for clarification, I would be glad to expound on my words rather that my words be taken out of context. We are not here to prove whose right or wrong, we are here to inform, educate and motivate one another. If you feel a paragraph needs addition information to be clarified, please feel free to drop your own opinion without the need to discredit another's opinion. No one can learn that way, and we all are learning most especially me.
I check the news in my country daily, and rape is rampant and on the high side. I have sat down to think deeply on such actions, as to why man would result in such violent act against another human. I came to a realization that it was pleasure. Remember, all my opinions are based off my experiences, I used to crave sex when I was living a wild life. But I always controlled the urge never to rape anyone even though I sought out the pleasure I got from sex. This is where I am coming from, it's from my perspective.
Do share yours from an unbiased view, I will appreciate it.
FoodMaster777
Newcomer
But that was exactly my point, you can get pleasure from sex and not be a rapist, you can even crave for sex and not rape anybody, that´s the general rule. What leads to these evils isn´t the existance of pleasure and temptation, it´s the lack of morals. Maybe I didn´t express myself correctly.
OP
OP
Now I understand what context you are driving at, we are definitely saying the same thing. Upholding morals is the reason why we resist the urge to commit crimes, and I am not insinuating that pleasure is bad and should be avoided totally. I am only stating an observation that if we allow the craving of pleasure to dominate us, we would then be slaves to pleasure.
It's a general rule as you said, but not everyone complies to such moral rule, now I was directing my thoughts towards those that flout such moral rules. I agree with you also that the existence of pleasure and temptation isn't evil, it's the lack of control and restraint that makes man become a slave to pleasure.
It's a general rule as you said, but not everyone complies to such moral rule, now I was directing my thoughts towards those that flout such moral rules. I agree with you also that the existence of pleasure and temptation isn't evil, it's the lack of control and restraint that makes man become a slave to pleasure.
FredVegrox
Forum Legend
We still are inclined to do things according to pleasure we anticipate. We learn more and more what sorts to really avoid for the negative things with those. But still, there are still other pleasures being anticipate that we choose for, anyway. We don't fully get away from that. But we can take on more altruistic tendency in our choices and behavior.
Lou
Forum Legend
HA!!
I remember when I was studying ethics in college, there was an author who postulated that altruism does not exist. When we do altruistic things it's because of the pleasure it gives us. (that warm feeling we get when we do something good). So even altruism is basically selfish.
oh, wait. here is something like that.
Why Altruism is Selfish: Psychology Explains the Paradox
Understanding the “benefit of giving” would improve social outcomes. Hence, thinking about the social effect of our choices is relevant when selfishness is aimed at maximizing the received value with the effect of positively impacting the people around us.
insight.openexo.com
I have been thinking about this quite a bit and this kind of ‘pleasure’ described seems to me to be something that has a burden of guilt, when the ‘pleasure’ is over for example. The pleasure I wish for is a pleasure without pain, a free and true pleasure.
I do not claim to always possess this each day but it is something for me that transcends other sensations - without hurting others or animals - this could be one of the greatest pleasures!
Is this a realistic pleasure for you?
I do not claim to always possess this each day but it is something for me that transcends other sensations - without hurting others or animals - this could be one of the greatest pleasures!
Is this a realistic pleasure for you?
I enjoyed falling off my skateboard today although it hurt it was exhilarating and there is some skill (or not) to shaping one's landing. That was pain but I enjoyed it more than when someone hits me as even if I am thinking I don't mind it seems shaped by someone else's will
Just to add to the B12 conversation.
Don't forget, Oluwamuyiwa, in general, animals that are factory farmed do not provide enough vitamin B12. Most food at restaurants is from factory farmed animals.
They basically give supplements to the animals...which are then consumed.
So there is nothing unnatural about taking supplements, and even if there was...it's a necessity, whether by tablet form, or through fortified foods.
Drinking unsanitised water would work, but I WOULDN'T suggest that as it obviously comes with major health risks.
Don't forget, Oluwamuyiwa, in general, animals that are factory farmed do not provide enough vitamin B12. Most food at restaurants is from factory farmed animals.
They basically give supplements to the animals...which are then consumed.
So there is nothing unnatural about taking supplements, and even if there was...it's a necessity, whether by tablet form, or through fortified foods.
Drinking unsanitised water would work, but I WOULDN'T suggest that as it obviously comes with major health risks.
"Contaminated water and poor sanitation are linked to transmission of diseases such as cholera, diarrhoea, dysentery, hepatitis A, typhoid and polio. Absent, inadequate, or inappropriately managed water and sanitation services expose individuals to preventable health risks."
Psychological egoismHA!!
I remember when I was studying ethics in college, there was an author who postulated that altruism does not exist. When we do altruistic things it's because of the pleasure it gives us. (that warm feeling we get when we do something good). So even altruism is basically selfish.
oh, wait. here is something like that.
Why Altruism is Selfish: Psychology Explains the Paradox
Understanding the “benefit of giving” would improve social outcomes. Hence, thinking about the social effect of our choices is relevant when selfishness is aimed at maximizing the received value with the effect of positively impacting the people around us.
Indeed. Everything we do because "we" want to do it. Even apparently selfless acts cause us to experience a natural high through endorphins.
Even things we "don't want to do", we do from duty (would feel worse if we didn't) or because we need something that requires it (work in a shitty job for example)
I don't not eat meat and other animal products because I am trying to spare some faceless cow, pig, sheep or whatever, I do it because I don't like the feeling I have mentally, knowing the facts...One reason many people simply don't want to discuss them. Ignorance is bliss.
Lou
Forum Legend
Oh, I forgot or maybe never knew it had a name.
I do remember one of my classmates wrote a term paper defending hedonism and I'm sure he must have used articles on Psychological egoism as his references.
Interesting, although I'm not quite sure how they relate?
Hedonism is more closely related to narcissism I would have thought.
Whilst Psychological egoism is more a hypothesis on why we do things, that claims that all actions have selfish origins, including altruistic actions.
I'm no expert though
Lou
Forum Legend
I"m no expert either but here is something I just found.Interesting, although I'm not quite sure how they relate?
I'm no expert though
"Egoism holds that all of our ultimate desires are self-directed. Hedonism goes further; it says that our only ultimate desire is the self-directed desire for pleasure and the avoidance of pain."
Is altruism selfish. Maybe it is for most cases(for a few altruism is not driven by selfish emotions but pure ideology, and/or cognitive empathy). Does a psychopath who does not feel anything when he is killing, on a higher moral plane than someone who helps other because he 'feels warm'? The most important thing is not whether one is selfish or not, it is whether one is good or bad. If one causes more pain, suffering and death on others then he is bad, regardless of what he is feeling or not.
That warm feeling you get is a part of you and defines you. It is inseparable from you. It is an integral part of you. And since you are doing good without external influence, you by definition are a whole good person. Most people get good feelings while eating flesh, as opposed to getting good feelings from saving others, both are not the same morally. People who do good because of outside influence(fear of punishment from God or Government) are not good as a person. They do good things but are not as a, stand alone individual, Good, or in other words a good person.
That warm feeling you get is a part of you and defines you. It is inseparable from you. It is an integral part of you. And since you are doing good without external influence, you by definition are a whole good person. Most people get good feelings while eating flesh, as opposed to getting good feelings from saving others, both are not the same morally. People who do good because of outside influence(fear of punishment from God or Government) are not good as a person. They do good things but are not as a, stand alone individual, Good, or in other words a good person.
Brian W
Conscientious Christian
The point is, you are ultimately acting on your own desires. If you see somebody in a bad way you feel bad and want them to be better, therefore your actions are based on what you want. It's not selfish in the everyday use of the word because what you want is for somebody else to be in a good way but it is still your want that drives you. You can't take your own desires out of the picture. Any model of the universe that doesn't include you is incomplete.
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Yes, every action needs to have a driving force. And that driving force will be driven by another driving force, and so on and on. What matters is are you ending or minimising pain, suffering and death of others, and what's driving you to do that is inbuilt in you, without any middle-influence/middleman driving you to do the above mentioned good. If you are doing the above, and are the above, you are a good person. And that's what matters in the end.
