What is Happening to Veganism?

[Brian W]

With these “vegans, who occasionally eat meat” you can guess who is trying to steal the movement.

According to the moral definition, one can eat meat if it would otherwise be thrown away. According to the dietary definition one can't. Which definition do you go by? (Please don't do what @g0rph does and insist that there is only one position. The history of the word is more complicated than that.)

 

[AndyAlexander]

According to the moral definition, one can eat meat if it would otherwise be thrown away. According to the dietary definition one can't. Which definition do you go by? (Please don't do what @g0rph does and insist that there is only one position. The history of the word is more complicated than that.)

Are you some sort of persistently manipulative saboteuring mole from the industry? Did you even read the article? Or are you just making up issues to deflect from the question and advance some sort of agenda?

 

[Mufflon]

I would have to agree

The issue that I have with eating non plant based food at other peoples` homes, is that not only are you giving out a wrong message
but is that slice of cake/ice cream etc really worth going against your principles? I think not

Not sure if I got my opinion on the social pressure thing across (though I agree with what you said anyway).

What I meant is that "social pressure" is something to conveniently hide behind when in reality people simply don't want to "miss out" on that delicious food, want to wear that leather boots "all my peers are wearing!!!" etc.

 

[christen_g]

I use this same definition of veganism for myself with just one different word. Instead of commodity I put property. I see animal enslavement to not be very different if at all to human enslavement and slaves are treated by the law as property.

True. Altho property is commodity. I like "commodity" because it emphasises the way animals arent just treated as porperty but as things. As "goods" for humans. As an economic thing to be traded.

For example most people dont own cows. But non-vegans buy milk. Buying milk treats the cow as a commodity, even tho the buyer doesnt own the cow.

 

[Rohan]

I'm in sincere doubt about that whole "social pressure" stuff.

I think the social pressure issue really is a significant thing which puts many people off going vegan. Being ridiculed and even ostracised from one's social group is a difficult thing to come to terms with, especially if you're the only one.

There are many communities where eating meat and dairy is just accepted as the normal thing to do. In fact, probably most communities to be honest. So you need to be a strong character to overcome that when everyone around you is poking fun at you.

It's even more poignant for the younger generations who are still developing their world view and trying to fit in with their social group. I mean, you have to be very firm in your convictions and very strong willed to ignore the snide remarks from others. Having said that, there is more acceptance of veganism now so maybe the issue is less relevant than it was ... but I definitely think it's still something that sways people's decisions.

 

[Mufflon]

I'm willing to support anyone that reduces their intake of animal products, and I don't demand a purity test.

In my own home, I don't have any animal products; but when I would be invited to my grandchildren's birthday parties, I would accept, and eat, a piece of birthday cake. I wouldn't ask whether it was vegan or not.

I hope one day that all of the products will be vegan, but I do the best I can. If I eat vegan 364 days of the year, and then eat a piece of birthday cake; I think I am doing pretty well.

This.

Also is it really important to "call yourself a vegan"? Ok, I guess for some people it is. Let's not forget that labels are defining which group one belongs to and there are people who deem it very important to "carry that label", especially given the fact that since a while the "vegan label" is associated with so much more than "not using/consuming animal products whenever possible", e. g. certain political views and holding certain opinions.

However, personally I'm simply glad when people eat/use less animal products. I don't care about the reason - it's important that they do.

 

[Mufflon]

The word vegan for me will always mean things made without animal products nor from exploiting them. However strict people stay within that parameter isn't as important to me as the realisation that veganism is both practical and possible

I agree.

However, all of this discussion about "what is vegan and what is no longer vegan" is kind of exhausting - I personally prefer to not call myself vegan since years. People have all weird assumptions about vegans (like that I think that I'm "better then them" or that I have certain views on whatever is going on in the world because I don't eat animal derived foods and don't use body lotions with animal derived ingredients - I mean... come on).

 

[Lou]

I agree.

However, all of this discussion about "what is vegan and what is no longer vegan" is kind of exhausting - I personally prefer to not call myself vegan since years. People have all weird assumptions about vegans (like that I think that I'm "better then them" or that I have certain views on whatever is going on in the world because I don't eat animal derived foods and don't use body lotions with animal derived ingredients - I mean... come on).

Yes, but how are they going to know/learn there are really good vegans (like you), if they don't know you are vegan, too. Plus some others might see you as a role model.

 

[g0rph]

According to the moral definition, one can eat meat if it would otherwise be thrown away. According to the dietary definition one can't. Which definition do you go by? (Please don't do what @g0rph does and insist that there is only one position. The history of the word is more complicated than that.)

Straw-man much?


In certain situations it could be vegan to eat non-vegan food that would have been wasted.

However, if this is done on a regular basis, it undermines the whole point of veganism. People are likely to "make sure" there is too much, knowing you will eat it.

There is a separate word for people who do this anyway ..."freegan".

Morally, I have no issue with it, but it isn't veganism.

 

[Mufflon]

Yes, but how are they going to know/learn there are really good vegans (like you), if they don't know you are vegan, too. Plus some others might see you as a role model.

See, in some vegan eyes I'm not even a real vegan because my views on certain topics don't match their high standards.

 

[Lou]

See, in some vegan eyes I'm not even a real vegan because my views on certain topics don't match their high standards.

sure but you can still be a role model, shining example to the vegan curious.
Those other guys can use you as horrible example, cautionary tale.

 

[silva]

See, in some vegan eyes I'm not even a real vegan because my views on certain topics don't match their high standards.

Far too many vegans online would rather shame people for not being 100%, which does nothing but keep them from seeing vegan foods as a choice. Makes me sick.

sure but you can still be a role model, shining example to the vegan curious.
Those other guys can use you as horrible example, cautionary tale.

and they do. People do what they do based on what benefits them. I firmly believe in addressing the practical matters in making plants our preferred diet rather than how animals feel. When we post anthropomorphic pictures it only feeds the need to debate. When we make plant foods more attractive in economy, health, environmental impact and accessibility they become far more attractive

 

[Blues]

My observation of vegans is the importance of what goes into your mouth, you don’t have to justify the reasons to anyone.
Then you should be careful what comes out of your mouth via judgment of other vegan reasons why they are vegans.

 

[g0rph]

See, in some vegan eyes I'm not even a real vegan because my views on certain topics don't match their high standards.

Me in a nutshell.
I don't eat meat, dairy, eggs or even honey.
I don't *buy leather, silk, wool or any products containing them, unless there is no other option (see cars, MC etc)

I take care to buy cruelty free bathroom stuff. I am *mostly careful about which alcoholic beverages I consume.

*buy - because I still use some non-vegan items bought before.
*mostly - because I also have to have meals in a professional setting. I always order vegan, but tend not to check the wines a customer chooses.

The main kicker is. I don't disagree with "responsible breeding" and the use of animals for service dogs, dogs for the blind, deaf, etc, or for sniffer dogs or even police and army dogs.
Also , police horses are a very valuable tool in the police force.
What I do object to is if any of these animals are simply discarded when they are past a working age or if they are treated badly.

So , like you, my "views" rather than actions make me, for many ...non-vegan.

 

[KLS52]

This is a great conversation and I find myself "liking and agreeing" with some of the arguments on both "sides". This tells me we still have a ways to go.

 

[Brian W]

The main kicker is. I don't disagree with "responsible breeding" and the use of animals for service dogs, dogs for the blind, deaf, etc, or for sniffer dogs or even police and army dogs.
Also , police horses are a very valuable tool in the police force.

Does valuable to us equal ethical? Would it be acceptable for another species to use us that way? I understand that it is desirable to us but is that a reasonable reason to do it?

 

[Mufflon]

So , like you, my "views" rather than actions make me, for many ...non-vegan.

While I agree with what you said that's not necessarily what I mean.

Ok, maybe this is a regional thing but with the "vegan label" there seems to come the need to have certain views on "non animal related things". Like you have to be against "cultural appropriation" (I'm sorry I don't care if a white dude or gal is wearing dreadlocks), you need to hold the opinion that "gendering" is kinda cool (I'm sorry but I don't like to disfigure my native language that way) and of course you have to boycott companies like Nestle or you're not "a real vegan" or whatever etc.

 

[silva]

While I agree with what you said that's not necessarily what I mean.

Ok, maybe this is a regional thing but with the "vegan label" there seems to come the need to have certain views on "non animal related things". Like you have to be against "cultural appropriation" (I'm sorry I don't care if a white dude or gal is wearing dreadlocks), you need to hold the opinion that "gendering" is kinda cool (I'm sorry but I don't like to disfigure my native language that way) and of course you have to boycott companies like Nestle or you're not "a real vegan" or whatever etc.

For where I am in the US I don't encounter that --thank goodness !
I wish the term would just mean one thing---made without the use of animal or their products, as much as possible, or, one that doesn't eat or use.....
Let animal rights have it's own ethical catagory, why care why someone chooses to be vegan, whether emotions or practicality, or simply being just

 

[Mufflon]

For where I am in the US I don't encounter that --thank goodness !

Of course I was exaggerating a bit - but IMO "calling yourself a vegan" has become way too much of a political/cultural statement (or at least associated with that) for too many people these days.

 

[Brian W]

I might be wrong but I feel like the most vocal people on social media are the most ignorant and most prone to taking sides in any subject, not just veganism, and they create echo chambers to live in. It reaches a volume where they become absolutely certain that they are right and then nobody else gets a say in anything without being knocked down. You can often tell by the well rehearsed mantras, an example being "you're not vegan, you are plant-based." I feel like answering, "my food might be plant-based but I am flesh and blood."