Advice

[Veganite]

So I need a little advice. I have this old high school friend that I've recently re-connected with after several decades. Evidently, my friend states that she was vegan for several months (approx. 8)., but quit, due to what she described as bloating and GI issues. She said she never stopped going to the bathroom, which is the main reason she stopped, but she also started on about how all the data was old and since debunked. I challenged her to send me the data she feels is valid, but she argued that I would just return with my own reasearch, trying to derail hers and that it was pointless.

She is extremely obese, is borderline diabetic, has high blood pressure, and I would really like to help educate her on the health benefits on plant-based living. I just feel like I'm talking to a brick wall. She's already familiar with doctor Greger and all the other leading plant-based doctors, but now rejects their data. She just feels like it's old news and not up-to-date. I even suggested that perhaps a flexitarian diet would be better than eating so much meat, but she is defending her meat and bacon diet with passion.

We're already at the point of having to agree to disagree. I just thought someone on here might have some suggestions how to reach someone like that. She agrees with the animal rights aspect of factory farming, but still won't budge on her carnivore diet for that reason.

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[Kathy Lauren]

I just feel like I'm talking to a brick wall.

You are! Leave it. Not everyone is reachable. If you make a good impression and she wonders how you manage it on a vegan diet, then you might have an opening. Otherwise, let her be.

 

[silva]

......off the chart!

Every physician advocating a plant based diet has addressed the issues of gut biome change. If she isn't willing to accept that her issue has been addressed there isn't much left to say
It's becoming too hard to dismiss the finding of wfpb diets ability to both prevent and reverse so many lifestyle diseases--which is exactly what she is suffering from.

You say you want to educate her, but she is familiar with those respected physicians? Appartently only enough to mock them.
Besides sending research that addresses her gastrointestinal problems when she changed diets I don't know what to say other than----
"so how's your diet working for you?"

Oh.....and vegan doesn't say anything other than not eating animal products, so that won't neccessarily help much anyway, and not what Greger and the crew advocate

 

[Veganite]

Believe me, posting this question here I was not optimistic of some magic bullet answer. The brick wall analogy was not far off the truth. I guess I was just hoping that someone else had some magical wisdom.

I guess I kind of see it like asking a smoker to quit. Even though they know they're bad for you they will keep doing it, regardless. I do see food as an addictive property in sort of the same way as any other addiction. People will defend their addictions.

Anyhow, input is appreciated.

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[bEt]

I'm glad to see this discussion. I too have many older relatives and other elders in my life who I know will never change. I try to make peace with that and remember that the future is in the hands of younger people. They are sometimes more open to asking questions and challenging the status quo, and they are the ones who will carry their habits of thought and dietary habits into the future.
I really haven't ever figured out how to help someone who doesn't want to be helped. I guess I'm not alone in that.

I think Kathy Lauren is right to say let it go for a while. If a teachable moment presents itself, and your friend is not feeling defensive about her diet, you may have the opportunity to ask if she thinks the digestive symptoms she was worried about were harming her health. Not offering feedback, just ask the question and let her think it through on her own.

And then the lead by example thing too.

 

[silva]

Believe me, posting this question here I was not optimistic of some magic bullet answer. The brick wall analogy was not far off the truth. I guess I was just hoping that someone else had some magical wisdom.

I guess I kind of see it like asking a smoker to quit. Even though they know they're bad for you they will keep doing it, regardless. I do see food as an addictive property in sort of the same way as any other addiction. People will defend their addictions.

Anyhow, input is appreciated.

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I think many people look at the hype of vegan diets without really delving into the research, and the evidence behind wfpb diets. Skimming through How Not to Die, or similar, can jazz people up only to have their desire for easier answers take over. Without really immersing yourself in the research, that those like Greger fully provide, it can seem like another fad. I think this is a major reason people like Dr Greger, Barnard, McDougall, Esselstyn......refrain from using the term vegan

Maybe at the least you ask her to truly read up on the evidence about changing your gut biome, and asking her to think about what she is willing to do to feel better?

This certainly doesn't have to do with being vegan in her instance, and everything to do with changing her relationship with food
How Not to Diet would certainly be a good read for her, but nutritionfacts.org has so much that addresses gut biome transition

 

[ewomack]

As suggested above, I agree that the word "vegan" and the phrase "plant-based" have probably become loaded in this context. Avoiding them going forward might be necessary. It sounds like she's made up her mind about those terms and won't budge.

Also, did this person go vegan cold turkey? Or did they gradually adjust to it? If the former, then, yes, their guts do have the potential to go a little crazy for a while. Something similar could happen if she moved to a different country and ate only the local food. Guts need time to adjust, meat-based or not. Would she be open to at least cutting down on the meat in her diet? Try going meatless for one day of the week? Give it a month. Then try 2 days of the week. Still feeling okay? Two and a half days? It seems like cutting down on meat might at least help? Or at least start with eating healthier meats? Bacon is probably at the rock bottom of the meat health scale. Can she start by cutting out bacon?

 

[Kathy Lauren]

The best way to reach omnivores who are reluctant to learn about veganism is via their stomach. My wife is the queen of muffins and cupcakes. A delicious dessert that doesn't have the texture of sawdust will speak for itself. Wait until after they tell you how delicious it was before you tell them that it was vegan.

 

[Emma JC]

maybe you could address the issue from the Type II diabetes angle - explaining that Type II is caused by a build up of fat in the cells - encouraging her to cut out excess oils and fats and therefore animal products that are high in them - eggs, meat etc

Emma JC
Find your vegan soulmate or just a friend. www.spiritualmatchmaking.com

 

[Veganite]

explaining that Type II is caused by a build up of fat in the cells

Tried that. She says it's all been debunked and that it was never the cause. She is sort of taking that sugar and carb approach to the cause, which we all know to be false. She wants to defend her bad diet, so she can eat whatever she likes, despite the health risks. It's classic denial. I wish I could reach her somehow. She really is a nice person. It all makes me sad.

Thanks for your suggestion though.

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[PTree15]

The best way to reach omnivores who are reluctant to learn about veganism is via their stomach. My wife is the queen of muffins and cupcakes. A delicious dessert that doesn't have the texture of sawdust will speak for itself. Wait until after they tell you how delicious it was before you tell them that it was vegan.

I heartily agree with this. My family has embraced several of my vegan dishes/desserts. And this had led to them basically ditch dairy milk and red meat. My dad has told my mom to cut down on the other meat as well. I never thought I would hear that from him. He's 84, and he's always mentioning how a vegan diet is considered quite healthy (he's been reading up on it of late). So, don't give up on the older folks. ;-)

 

[Veganite]

I have another dilemma. So my sister is coming from back east to stay with me for Christmas. It's just for a couple days and she knows I'm vegan and is already trying to dictate the Christmas day menu. She is asking me if I would mind if she has her own food but joins me for Christmas dinner. So she is more or less asking to cook her meat in my kitchen and eat with me while I eat my vegan Christmas day dinner. I love my sister, but the idea of this to me is repulsive. I don't want to be rude, but this is unacceptable. There is no meat going to be cooking in my house, period! I feel like telling her to stay somewhere else.

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[Kathy Lauren]

I have another dilemma. So my sister is coming from back east to stay with me for Christmas. It's just for a couple days and she knows I'm vegan and is already trying to dictate the Christmas day menu. She is asking me if I would mind if she has her own food but joins me for Christmas dinner. So she is more or less asking to cook her meat in my kitchen and eat with me while I eat my vegan Christmas day dinner. I love my sister, but the idea of this to me is repulsive. I don't want to be rude, but this is unacceptable. There is no meat going to be cooking in my house, period! I feel like telling her to stay somewhere else.

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Your house, your rules. Tell her to arrive after dinner.

 

[PTree15]

I have another dilemma. So my sister is coming from back east to stay with me for Christmas. It's just for a couple days and she knows I'm vegan and is already trying to dictate the Christmas day menu. She is asking me if I would mind if she has her own food but joins me for Christmas dinner. So she is more or less asking to cook her meat in my kitchen and eat with me while I eat my vegan Christmas day dinner. I love my sister, but the idea of this to me is repulsive. I don't want to be rude, but this is unacceptable. There is no meat going to be cooking in my house, period! I feel like telling her to stay somewhere else.

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I draw the line at having dead flesh cooked in my house. It's your house, and you get to make the rules. If she wants meat, she can have it before she gets to your house. This is why I never host Thanksgiving dinner with my family because they'd want to cook the flesh in my oven. No, thank you!

 

[silva]

I see this request the same as someone asking to bring foods that produce allergic reactions to a dinner with someone with an allergy
Or alcohol to one with addiction
Pork to a Kosher home
Asking for omissions so everyone can feel welcome should always be reasonable
Asking for your own personal additions (unless some medical, something exceptional, need) is nothing but selfish

Barring that your sister has just been through some kind of personal tragedy or trauma I would also tow the line at saying "My table is meat free, but you are always welcome".
You aren't banning her, you're inviting her. She has the option of choosing spending time with you or not

I include the trauma part because honestly, if someone is suffering I would always put their need that day first.

 

[Veganite]

So, I sent off a not-so-nice email saying pretty much what everyone else is saying..."my house, my rules". It was blunt and straight to the point, but carefully worded not to be rude. Despite that last point, I suspect I could be off her Christmas card list. Oh well!


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[Emma JC]

I agree with all of the above - my reply would be "I would love to host you and spend time with you over Christmas. There are no animals products that come into my home and the meals that I cook and the foods I supply are delicious and nutritious. If you would like to eat alternatives you are welcome to do so, while here, outside my home. You may feel this is a challenge for you but I would ask you to come, relax and enjoy the experience of something a bit different from your norm and concentrate on our love for each other."

Do let us know the outcome.

Emma JC
Find your vegan soulmate or just a friend. www.spiritualmatchmaking.com

 

[Veganite]

So I guess I'm being selfish and self-centered. I will see what follows this reply. Right now I'm not even sure if she's still coming, sadly.

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[Emma JC]

So I guess I'm being selfish and self-centered. I will see what follows this reply. Right now I'm not even sure if she's still coming, sadly.

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I disagree that you are selfish and self-centered.... we all have buttons that our families push and mine happens to be religion although now that my dad has passed that button doesn't get pushed so much - they seem very accepting of my food choices, generally, although there is one brother-in-law that thinks it would be funny to 'fool' me if he had a chance..... he won't get the chance and if he did it, it wouldn't be me that was the fool.

Emma JC
Find your vegan soulmate or just a friend. www.spiritualmatchmaking.com

 

[Calliegirl]

So I guess I'm being selfish and self-centered. I will see what follows this reply. Right now I'm not even sure if she's still coming, sadly.

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Maybe the person who refuses to go without meat for a few days is being the selfish one.