Seriously, people act as if the world is ending if you ask them to skip meat for even one meal. It's ridiculous. There are also lots of meals omnis eat that are vegan without them even thinking about it, so one meatless meal isn't going to kill them.Maybe the person who refuses to go without meat for a few days is being the selfish one.
Advice
- Thread starter Veganite
- Start date
Well, back to the first subject of this post, I think it may take a few months at least before your friend may be ready to hear about this, but I thought it was both entertaining and interesting. Bathroom humor, anyone?
(Sorry in advance if this offends)
Hooray for farts!
Men fart more when eating a plant-based diet due to good gut bacteria
Men fed a plant-based diet farted seven times more per day and had bigger stools than when they were on a Western diet because their “good” bacteria flourished
A quote from the last line of this page:
'The findings suggest that flatulence associated with eating more plants should be welcomed, says Stanton. “Our Western idea that farting is a sign of something being wrong is totally false,” she says. In most cases, “farting is a sign of a healthy diet and a healthy colon”, she says.'
Journal reference: Nutrients, DOI: https://doi.org/10.3390/nu13082638
Kathy Lauren
Forum Practitioner
Well, back to the first subject of this post, I think it may take a few months at least before your friend may be ready to hear about this, but I thought it was both entertaining and interesting. Bathroom humor, anyone?
(Sorry in advance if this offends)
Hooray for farts!
Men fart more when eating a plant-based diet due to good gut bacteria
Men fed a plant-based diet farted seven times more per day and had bigger stools than when they were on a Western diet because their “good” bacteria flourishedwww.newscientist.com
A quote from the last line of this page:
'The findings suggest that flatulence associated with eating more plants should be welcomed, says Stanton. “Our Western idea that farting is a sign of something being wrong is totally false,” she says. In most cases, “farting is a sign of a healthy diet and a healthy colon”, she says.'
Journal reference: Nutrients, DOI: https://doi.org/10.3390/nu13082638
This reminds me of a similar discussion years ago (before many of you were born, probably) on one of the first veggie discussion forums. People were discussing ways to minimize flatulence. Finally, one of the regulars spoke up with the line: "Revel in your veggie fog!", making the point that flatulence was a sign of good digestion.
I couldn't help thinking more about the story I linked to above, because the experiment it was about was really very short. They took a handful of omnivores and had them go plant-based for a short time. It would make sense that their microbiomes would take some time to sort out and get back to an equilibrium. Then too my own experience is that I am less gassy since ditching animal-based, but I had just assumed that's because dairy always gave me horrible gas.
So I was thinking that this problem probably deserves more attention, since it seems like digestive issues really do affect some people more than others. I've been trying to read about it but it seems like it's something even the experts are still learning about.
Part of what makes it so complicated is that our microbiomes are so individual. Two healthy people can have microbiomes that look different, but obviously they both 'work'. And scientists are still trying to pin down which individual species can cause problems. There does seem to be a consensus that having a balance between different types can be beneficial.
One approach seems to be to feed the good bacteria with prebiotics (ie soluble fiber).
But that can cause problems for some people, because sometimes some of the problematic bacteria can cause mischief when a person eats or takes some prebiotics (such as inulin). I think that the idea behind the low-FODMAP diet is to actually avoid foods that cause discomfort. But I wonder if the reason they cause too much discomfort for some people is because of their own individual microbiome? I think I read somewhere that some kinds of prebiotics are better tolerated, at least in small amounts--psyllium for example, I believe.
If a person just stuck it out and kept trying to feed the good bacteria and starve the bad, would it eventually work? Or does it depend on what mix of organisms you are starting with? Would it work for some people and not for others?
Another approach is to battle the bad bacteria with antibiotics, like this small study done in Canada:
Modulation of the gut microbiota composition by rifaximin in non-const | CEG (dovepress.com)
"Of the patients, 80% (12/15) met the criteria for the key clinical end point of adequate relief of global IBS symptoms during the evaluation period. Patients with adequate relief of global IBS symptoms also reported adequate relief of bloating and abdominal pain/discomfort."
Then, too, some advocate adding beneficial bacteria (with probiotics).
Part of the idea, I think, is that adding good bacteria can help keep the bad bacteria in check. That sounds good, but there are a couple of things that can go wrong. For one, it can end up that the probiotics do a better job of living higher up in the digestive system rather than making it all the way to where they are needed in the colon. That can lead to something called 'small-intestine bacterial overgrowth' (SIBO), which can actually make things even worse. The other problem is that not all probiotics are the same. Some probiotics you can buy actually have some bacteria that are already found in overabundance in people who have digestive problems--again, making a bad problem worse.
A couple of types of bacteria that may actually be helpful are called reuteri and also bifidobacterium. There are even people who advocate using them in an enema to avoid the SIBO problem. I don't know how many people would be willing to go that far, or if it would even help. This review is about using reuteri for colic in babies, but it has been used for older people too.
Lactobacillus reuteri to Treat Infant Colic: A Meta-analysis - PubMed (nih.gov)
One more thing some people advocate is eating fermented foods like sauerkraut and kimchi. The idea behind this is that the good (intentionally cultured) bacteria battle the bad bacteria but also this: it is actually the substances created by the good bacteria (called 'metabolites', I think) that really get in the way of the bad bacteria over-proliferating and running away with things. So something like sauerkraut is loaded not only with the good bacteria, but also with the good metabolites it made while it was fermenting--and they both can tamp down the bad bacteria population.
This is a study done in Denmark (or maybe Norway?). Scientists wanted to know if sauerkraut would help people with 'irritable bowel syndrome' (IBS). It did reduce symptoms, even in the group that was getting the pasteurized sauerkraut. I guess maybe because the pasteurized still had the metabolites, even if the bacteria had been reduced or eliminated by the sterilization process.
pubs.rsc.org
If it were me, I'd try that first--pretty safe, not too expensive.
Well, I doubt Veganite's friend really wants any of my well-meaning advice, but if some other internet wanderer finds their way here looking for answers, that is my little offering.
So I was thinking that this problem probably deserves more attention, since it seems like digestive issues really do affect some people more than others. I've been trying to read about it but it seems like it's something even the experts are still learning about.
Part of what makes it so complicated is that our microbiomes are so individual. Two healthy people can have microbiomes that look different, but obviously they both 'work'. And scientists are still trying to pin down which individual species can cause problems. There does seem to be a consensus that having a balance between different types can be beneficial.
One approach seems to be to feed the good bacteria with prebiotics (ie soluble fiber).
But that can cause problems for some people, because sometimes some of the problematic bacteria can cause mischief when a person eats or takes some prebiotics (such as inulin). I think that the idea behind the low-FODMAP diet is to actually avoid foods that cause discomfort. But I wonder if the reason they cause too much discomfort for some people is because of their own individual microbiome? I think I read somewhere that some kinds of prebiotics are better tolerated, at least in small amounts--psyllium for example, I believe.
If a person just stuck it out and kept trying to feed the good bacteria and starve the bad, would it eventually work? Or does it depend on what mix of organisms you are starting with? Would it work for some people and not for others?
Another approach is to battle the bad bacteria with antibiotics, like this small study done in Canada:
Modulation of the gut microbiota composition by rifaximin in non-const | CEG (dovepress.com)
"Of the patients, 80% (12/15) met the criteria for the key clinical end point of adequate relief of global IBS symptoms during the evaluation period. Patients with adequate relief of global IBS symptoms also reported adequate relief of bloating and abdominal pain/discomfort."
Then, too, some advocate adding beneficial bacteria (with probiotics).
Part of the idea, I think, is that adding good bacteria can help keep the bad bacteria in check. That sounds good, but there are a couple of things that can go wrong. For one, it can end up that the probiotics do a better job of living higher up in the digestive system rather than making it all the way to where they are needed in the colon. That can lead to something called 'small-intestine bacterial overgrowth' (SIBO), which can actually make things even worse. The other problem is that not all probiotics are the same. Some probiotics you can buy actually have some bacteria that are already found in overabundance in people who have digestive problems--again, making a bad problem worse.
A couple of types of bacteria that may actually be helpful are called reuteri and also bifidobacterium. There are even people who advocate using them in an enema to avoid the SIBO problem. I don't know how many people would be willing to go that far, or if it would even help. This review is about using reuteri for colic in babies, but it has been used for older people too.
Lactobacillus reuteri to Treat Infant Colic: A Meta-analysis - PubMed (nih.gov)
One more thing some people advocate is eating fermented foods like sauerkraut and kimchi. The idea behind this is that the good (intentionally cultured) bacteria battle the bad bacteria but also this: it is actually the substances created by the good bacteria (called 'metabolites', I think) that really get in the way of the bad bacteria over-proliferating and running away with things. So something like sauerkraut is loaded not only with the good bacteria, but also with the good metabolites it made while it was fermenting--and they both can tamp down the bad bacteria population.
This is a study done in Denmark (or maybe Norway?). Scientists wanted to know if sauerkraut would help people with 'irritable bowel syndrome' (IBS). It did reduce symptoms, even in the group that was getting the pasteurized sauerkraut. I guess maybe because the pasteurized still had the metabolites, even if the bacteria had been reduced or eliminated by the sterilization process.
Lacto-fermented sauerkraut improves symptoms in IBS patients independent of product pasteurisation – a pilot study
Lacto-fermented sauerkraut contains a natural variety of lactic acid bacteria (LAB) and has not previously been studied in the treatment of irritable bowel syndrome (IBS) patients. The present study investigated the effect of a daily lacto-fermented sauerkraut supplement in relation to IBS...
pubs.rsc.org
If it were me, I'd try that first--pretty safe, not too expensive.
Well, I doubt Veganite's friend really wants any of my well-meaning advice, but if some other internet wanderer finds their way here looking for answers, that is my little offering.
Last edited:
This little article says not to overdo the sauerkraut--just little (two tablespoons) servings give a benefit:
Edited to add:
the next-to-last paragraph in the article states:
"That spoonful is roughly what one would put on a hot dog. And there is good evidence that eating this amount on a daily basis helps to ensure a healthy microbiome. Just be sure to leave out the hot dog."
Think Twice About Opting Out of Sauerkraut
If you’ve ever lined up for a classic hot dog on a hot day on campus, you may have reached for the yellow-white sauerkraut perched on the toppings table. The fermented cabbage sure dresses up that hot dog, but did you know this tasty flavour enhancer has a number of health benefits? Eating...
www.mcgill.ca
Edited to add:
the next-to-last paragraph in the article states:
"That spoonful is roughly what one would put on a hot dog. And there is good evidence that eating this amount on a daily basis helps to ensure a healthy microbiome. Just be sure to leave out the hot dog."
Last edited:
This little article says not to overdo the sauerkraut--just little (two tablespoons) servings give a benefit:
Think Twice About Opting Out of Sauerkraut
If you’ve ever lined up for a classic hot dog on a hot day on campus, you may have reached for the yellow-white sauerkraut perched on the toppings table. The fermented cabbage sure dresses up that hot dog, but did you know this tasty flavour enhancer has a number of health benefits? Eating...www.mcgill.ca
I really like sauerkraut but not on a hot dog! I usually serve mine with steamed potatoes and some kind
of protein i.e. frankfurters or seitan plus lots of Dijon mustard. It makes a delicious and hearty dinner during
the cold winter nights.
OP
OP
Now we're talking about hot dogs and sauerkraut? So glad this thread stayed on topic. 
Anyhow, my sister claimed to really enjoy my plant-based Christmas dinner, which was a bit of a surprise.
As for my non-vegan friend, that is a hopeless case that I have now given up on. It is pointless to argue with a fool.
*
Anyhow, my sister claimed to really enjoy my plant-based Christmas dinner, which was a bit of a surprise.
As for my non-vegan friend, that is a hopeless case that I have now given up on. It is pointless to argue with a fool.
*
Now we're talking about hot dogs and sauerkraut? So glad this thread stayed on topic.
Anyhow, my sister claimed to really enjoy my plant-based Christmas dinner, which was a bit of a surprise.
As for my non-vegan friend, that is a hopeless case that I have now given up on. It is pointless to argue with a fool.
*
Ah, thank you for the update, I was going to ask you how it all went. So good your sister enjoyed it!
One of the people we visited with/stayed with while away decided to "tease" us by asking if we would grow udders if we had a bit of cow excretion (butter) on garlic bread. Why do they even think that is funny? She is about 80 pounds overweight and has the gall to ask us a question like that. There was a lot of tongue biting I did so as not to respond in kind.
Emma JC
Find your vegan soulmate or just a friend. www.spiritualmatchmaking.com
That doesn't make a shred of sense much less humor
. You didn't ask her if she'd grown udders eating butter?I'm glad your sister came around! Maybe she was just as surprised! I think many people had apprehensions about the holidays, maybe she was just expecting disappointment?Now we're talking about hot dogs and sauerkraut? So glad this thread stayed on topic.
Anyhow, my sister claimed to really enjoy my plant-based Christmas dinner, which was a bit of a surprise.
As for my non-vegan friend, that is a hopeless case that I have now given up on. It is pointless to argue with a fool.
*
As for the friend, that is the reality. There is a reality show "My 600 pound life" that focuses on surgery and diets that seem to allow a lot of saturated fats and animal proteins, sugar substitutes and no carbs
That doesn't make a shred of sense much less humor
yup, she's grown something, that's for sure
I like the restriction of not eating animals or their excretions because I make better choices. Vegan butter and cheese can be more expensive and so I eat a lot less of them than I would otherwise, just a few shreds of cheeze and a skim of budder goes a long ways and the weight stays off. I am also not tempted to grab a donut when I grab a coffee in a coffee shop. I don't pick up a chocolate bar in a convenience store I just eat a small square of one I bought deliberately for dessert later. Etc. People think it is "restrictive" but I feel it allows me to be more discerning and disciplined and I can always use more of that.
Emma JC
Find your vegan soulmate or just a friend. www.spiritualmatchmaking.com
Lou
Forum Legend
Higher prices and FODO (Fear of Dining Out) has done more good things for my smart food choices. I used to reward myself for going to the gym by grabbing a Veggie Delite at Subway. Subway is next door to my gym. Recently returned to the gym but no longer going to subway afterwards.
For the past couple of years I started going grocery shopping very early in the morning - before breakfast. And I would reward myself with some convenience food - like a frozen veggie burrito. But now I skip that and wait till I get home.
----
Edit. Just learned that the 75¢ word for FODO is deipnophobia. The fear of dining out with others.
For the past couple of years I started going grocery shopping very early in the morning - before breakfast. And I would reward myself with some convenience food - like a frozen veggie burrito. But now I skip that and wait till I get home.
----
Edit. Just learned that the 75¢ word for FODO is deipnophobia. The fear of dining out with others.
majorbloodnok
Forum Senior
I thought I'd give a bit of a summary overview, and an opinion of an omnivore to boot.
If you're offered a gift, it would be considered rude to impose conditions on your accepting it; you either accept it or politely decline. That is the position your sister was in and (IMHO) she was mistaken to put you in a position where you had to feel your generosity was in some way inconsiderate. How can it be self-centred to offer an invitation, especially since she already knows your life choices and what accepting your offer entails?
The fact she decided to put aside her preconceptions and accept your offer anyway was a good choice on her part. The fact she then had a meal she enjoyed is simply a knock-on benefit, and a win for both of you. I'm glad things resolved themselves that well.
Eventually, everyone has their own set of preferences but within those limitations there is just a simple distinction; there is enjoyable food and food that isn't enjoyable. If someone is good enough to provide me with food I enjoy, the ingredients are irrelevant unless they dangerous (allergies) or morally unacceptable (pate de foie gras, for example). Why if I like meat should I object to an enjoyable dish that happens to not contain it? It's still enjoyable, right?
She may have been going to the bathroom constantly because the new diet was clearing out the mountains of fecal matter blocking her colon. Joe Cross in his film Fat, Sick, and Nearly Dead talked about the major colon cleaning that happened after he started drinking the vegetable juices.
I remember talking to an elderly friend, who was very upset that her doctor made her do a colon cleanse, and she was pooping "3 or 4 times a day". She told me that she would be really happy when she would be going back to her "once a week poops".
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