Choice Feminism

[mlp]

I agree. I think it is the whole of society that needs to change but that will only happen gradually over time.

It won't happen at all, as long as people continue to conform to societal expectations and norms. And unlike racial minorities and the gay rights movement, women as a group seem to fall all over themselves to comply with societal expectations and norms. Even pointing out that certain *choices* are conforming to and thereby reinforcing societal expectations and norms is unacceptable to most women.

Black people in the U.S. went from slavery to the civil rights movement within a hundred years. How many centuries did it take women to just get the vote?

Frankly, we women are victims of the "patriarchy" only because so many of us are making that choice for all of us. We're not even a frigging minority - we just choose to act as though we are.

 

[Moll Flanders]

It won't happen at all, as long as people continue to conform to societal expectations and norms. And unlike racial minorities and the gay rights movement, women as a group seem to fall all over themselves to comply with societal expectations and norms. Even pointing out that certain *choices* are conforming to and thereby reinforcing societal expectations and norms is unacceptable to most women.

Black people in the U.S. went from slavery to the civil rights movement within a hundred years. How many centuries did it take women to just get the vote?

Frankly, we women are victims of the "patriarchy" only because so many of us are making that choice for all of us. We're not even a frigging minority - we just choose to act as though we are.

I agree with you to a point but you are coming across in a very judgemental way. I know that some feminists aren't comfortable with so-called choice feminism and I understand the argument but I am not particularly fond of many anti-choice views in general. It's a very broad spectrum of people within the feminist movement so we don't all have to agree.

I personally don't like the anti-sex brigade within the feminist movement and I don't want to heap scorn on any women/ man who chooses to work in any area of sex work and I know some feminists and non-feminists disagree with me and I'm fine with that.

 

[mlp]

I agree with you to a point but you are coming across in a very judgemental way. I know that some feminists aren't comfortable with so-called choice feminism and I understand the argument but I am not particularly fond of many anti-choice views in general. It's a very broad spectrum of people within the feminist movement so we don't all have to agree.

I personally don't like the anti-sex brigade within the feminist movement and I don't want to heap scorn on any women/ man who chooses to work in any area of sex work and I know some feminists and non-feminists disagree with me and I'm fine with that.

I think that the term "anti-choice" is itself judgmental. My best friend is, and has been for most of her life, a housewife. That's been her choice, and one she's only lately become unhappy with, as their finances have taken a downturn and she has realized that if her husband were to suddenly drop dead (as the husbands of some of her friends have been doing), she would be left completely impoverished and with no way to support herself (both because of her lack of a job history and health reasons). She, like all of us, is left to live with the consequences of her choices, and I worry for her.

I've made a whole lot of incredibly stupid, self-defeating choices myself. I'm not advocating that anyone should have stopped me from making those choices, or that others should be stopped from making their own choices, for better or worse. But I also recognize that many of the choices I made had detrimental effects on others, and that is the real burden I carry.

If we can't examine our own choices honestly, and look at the effect on ourselves, and more importantly, on others, then we are not being very adult about our responsibilities, and we're not going to grow, either as individuals or as a society. And the "others" who are affected by at least some of our choices is not just those who are in personal contact with us, but the larger whole of society at large.

I don't care what choices any individual woman makes, but to disregard the impact of the choices women in the aggregate make, when those aggregated choices reinforce the status quo, is unrealistic, unless the status quo is not to be challenged. (And frankly, I think that many/most women don't seem to be interested in challenging the status quo in any substantive way.)

As for sex workers - what "scorn" I have is for those who use them. The vast majority of sex workers are individuals who don't have much in the way of options as to how to make ends meet, and/or are damaged by abuse they have suffered. Taking advantage of that is what's shameful.

What I see in this "choice feminism" is a total abdication of responsibility for our own choices; the "patriarchy" is completely responsible. That's a child's position, not an adult's. And to boot, it's either completely circular or completely hypocritical - any choice a woman makes is a feminist choice, unless that choice happens to be an examination of or criticism of certain choices made by women; that is after all, the only thing a woman can do that's not feminist.

 

[Pickle Juice]

Mlp not only do I agree with everything you are saying here, on a personal note, you are one of the few people on this forum who do not make me feel judged or disliked. And that's not because we agree on everything, because we certainly don't.

 

[beancounter]

My best friend is, and has been for most of her life, a housewife. That's been her choice, and one she's only lately become unhappy with, as their finances have taken a downturn and she has realized that if her husband were to suddenly drop dead (as the husbands of some of her friends have been doing), she would be left completely impoverished and with no way to support herself

OT: Your friend should look into life insurance.

 

[mlp]

OT: Your friend should look into life insurance.

That would be the answer, if they could afford it. Unfortunately, they are in the position that, during the last week or two of the husband's pay period, they can only afford one meal per day, and my friend often has to go without the medications she needs.

 

[mlp]

Mlp not only do I agree with everything you are saying here, on a personal note, you are one of the few people on this forum who do not make me feel judged or disliked. And that's not because we agree on everything, because we certainly don't.

I appreciate that more than I can say, Pickle Juice.

 

[Ansciess]

If someone would criticize a woman's choice from a viewpoint that you disagreed with, would you be just as accepting? For example, someone who criticized a working mother for the "harm" she was causing her children?

Or can we only criticize individual women for making choices you disagree with?

I'm not "criticizing" a woman's choice, as you mean it. I am looking at the ramifications of choices from a political perspective. But that act seems very threatening to you, for whatever reason.

For all you know about me, I think all women should stay home with their kids. But would that make it a feminist choice? I personally wouldn't even frame it that way, but would rather look at the larger picture of how this practice tends to impact women as a class.

 

[Freesia]

I used to have a friend who was a sex worker. They enjoyed their job, but I used to worry endlessly for their safety. I was very glad when they stopped doing it. Perhaps if it was a safer industry it wouldnt be such an issue but I found it very worrying.

 

[Ann Chovie]

If we can't even examine what effect our own personal choices have in shaping societal expectations and norms, and prefer to withdraw into victimhood, then I think that we as a group will remain forever stuck with the status quo.

The real victims of Feminism are those who bang its drum the loudest. The women who would gladly trade their uterus for a pair of balls.

The women who rush on and on grabbing at all the male prizes regardless of whether they really want or need them but just because they can.

They think they are the clever ones, the champion of our cause but they are not. They are the victims.

The clever ones work alongside men, within the structure, relishing their woman hood and celebrating their power as birth givers. Who else is more powerful than a mother to change societal views?

Mothers are the role models and educators of our next generation of girls AND boys.

What better place to start to change perception of gender roles than in the home , and what better age to begin this socialisation than in infancy?

Who better to do it than 'Feminist' mums?

No woman is a stay at home mother because she has no choice but because she has.

She may have been 'out there' grabbing the prizes' or maybe she will be later but for now her Feminist role is educator of the next generation of Feminist.

Her choice to embrace this role is seen as regressive and damning to Feminism, but she is not a victim of patriarchal expectation , she is not a victim at all. She is the bedrock of Feminism.

 

[Moll Flanders]

I think that the term "anti-choice" is itself judgmental. My best friend is, and has been for most of her life, a housewife. That's been her choice, and one she's only lately become unhappy with, as their finances have taken a downturn and she has realized that if her husband were to suddenly drop dead (as the husbands of some of her friends have been doing), she would be left completely impoverished and with no way to support herself (both because of her lack of a job history and health reasons). She, like all of us, is left to live with the consequences of her choices, and I worry for her.

I've made a whole lot of incredibly stupid, self-defeating choices myself. I'm not advocating that anyone should have stopped me from making those choices, or that others should be stopped from making their own choices, for better or worse. But I also recognize that many of the choices I made had detrimental effects on others, and that is the real burden I carry.

If we can't examine our own choices honestly, and look at the effect on ourselves, and more importantly, on others, then we are not being very adult about our responsibilities, and we're not going to grow, either as individuals or as a society. And the "others" who are affected by at least some of our choices is not just those who are in personal contact with us, but the larger whole of society at large.

I don't care what choices any individual woman makes, but to disregard the impact of the choices women in the aggregate make, when those aggregated choices reinforce the status quo, is unrealistic, unless the status quo is not to be challenged. (And frankly, I think that many/most women don't seem to be interested in challenging the status quo in any substantive way.)

What I see in this "choice feminism" is a total abdication of responsibility for our own choices; the "patriarchy" is completely responsible. That's a child's position, not an adult's. And to boot, it's either completely circular or completely hypocritical - any choice a woman makes is a feminist choice, unless that choice happens to be an examination of or criticism of certain choices made by women; that is after all, the only thing a woman can do that's not feminist.

It seems like you are saying you believe you think honestly about your choices but you believe other feminists don't? It's a bit of an assumption to make. I haven't heard many other feminists blame patriarchy for everything wrong in their lives anyway.

 

[Ansciess]

It seems like you are saying you believe you think honestly about your choices but you believe other feminists don't?

I don't think she's trying to say that. It's about having the willingness to examine aggregate personal 'choices' and customs through the lens of political ramifications for women as a class. Some people are unwilling to examine choices from that perspective (which has pretty much been a defining feature of feminism until now) and feminism thus ends up completely de-politicized (and essentially meaningless).

 

[Moll Flanders]

I don't think she's trying to say that. It's about having the willingness to examine aggregate personal 'choices' and customs through the lens of political ramifications for women as a class. Some people are unwilling to examine choices from that perspective (which has pretty much been a defining feature of feminism until now) and feminism thus ends up completely de-politicized (and essentially meaningless).

I think generally most feminists already do that but I would also think analysing every personal choice would be a bit unrealistic. I think this type of feminism will obviously lead to a lot of women feeling criticised for not being feminist enough which would probably alienate people from feminism and I know enough people who have a negative view of feminists already.

I also think it could be quite elitist as some women don't have the luxury of second guessing every decision they make or thinking about the political ramifications of every choice. One of my female friends had to go back to work as a nurse a fortnight after giving birth as she had to earn money for her and her child, another friend of mine was abandoned by her husband with two kids under three years old and she had to go onto benefits and she later got a job as a carer for people with disabilities. Should they feel guilty for their choice of doing traditionally female jobs? Most women are doing the best they can in a society that is still heavily weighted against them.

 

[Ansciess]

I think generally most feminists already do that but I would also think analysing every personal choice would be a bit unrealistic. I think this type of feminism will obviously lead to a lot of women feeling criticised for not being feminist enough which would probably alienate people from feminism and I know enough people who have a negative view of feminists already.

I also think it could be quite elitist as some women don't have the luxury of second guessing every decision they make or thinking about the political ramifications of every choice. One of my female friends had to go back to work as a nurse a fortnight after giving birth as she had to earn money for her and her child, another friend of mine was abandoned by her husband with two kids under three years old and she had to go onto benefits and she later got a job as a carer for people with disabilities. Should they feel guilty for their choice of doing traditionally female jobs? Most women are doing the best they can in a society that is still heavily weighted against them.

Should they "feel guilty?" Where did you get that? I guess they can feel guilty if they want to. As I said to das_nut, I don't think women should be fined, locked up, killed, etc. for their (legal) choices in this regard. After all the backbending about 'no one makes feminist choices all the time' etc. why does just analyzing that some choices may be less conducive to the overall path of feminism inspire this kind of defensiveness?

Yet again:
No one makes perfect feminist choices all the time. No one makes perfect vegan choices all the time. No one makes perfect environmental choices all the time. Choose any issue. I accept that. I'm not a perfect vegan. I'm don't always make the feminist choice. If people want to get really defensive about it or feel guilty, or stomp off in a huff and say they won't call themselves a feminist because people aren't going to say that they always make perfect choices or whatever, fine. I think it's just a matter of dealing with reality: no one is perfect.

I'm not sure why you're talking about "every decision." Every decision is not really a feminist decision (do you want rice or pasta?), but some big issues are, and that's what we're discussing. Because some women don't have the time, capacity, or inclination to think about feminism (which is a political movement), that doesn't mean that feminism shouldn't be thought about. Are you arguing that feminism shouldn't exist as a political movement because it's elitist because some women aren't inclined for whatever reason towards political analysis? Every liberation movement is elitist then.

 

[Moll Flanders]

No one makes perfect feminist choices all the time. No one makes perfect vegan choices all the time. No one makes perfect environmental choices all the time. Choose any issue. I accept that. I'm not a perfect vegan. I'm don't always make the feminist choice. If people want to get really defensive about it or feel guilty, or stomp off in a huff and say they won't call themselves a feminist because people aren't going to say that they always make perfect choices or whatever, fine. I think it's just a matter of dealing with reality: no one is perfect.

I don't think it is possible to be a "perfect" anything so I think we must agree then.

 

[sequoia]

Choice feminism, what bell hooks refers to as "lifestyle" feminism, is harmful to women's liberation from the patriarchy. Just because the woman who is doing something is a feminist doesn't mean that what she is doing is feminist.

Choice feminism is all about those who have the privilege to choose a certain lifestyle. It throws women who don't have the autonomy that women of certain class and racial statuses are afforded under the bus. **** 'em, it's all about me. Feminism needs to include and be beneficial to all women, not just the ones who can choose to do burlesque for fun, choose to be stay at home moms, etc. That is ******** white feminism and it needs to go.

 

[Freesia]

Well I know if I was ever a mother (possibly wont happen now) I would want to be a stay at home mum if I could afford it. That is because I dont think I would be able to handle a job and young children. Perhaps part time work but then I wouldnt want someone else looking after my baby.

Perhaps working from home would be ok after a certain age.