US Connecticut Shooting

[beancounter]

I see that you haven't done your research.

United States Department of Justice did a report called "Firearm Use by Offenders".

That report is at least 15 years old. Do you have a current source?

 

[beancounter]

The weapons used in Newtown were purchased legally by a citizen who was murdered and then had her guns stolen and used in a horrific crime.

I think that's a great example of how your own weapons can be used against you.

 

[ledboots]

"...If you thought Christmas wasn’t coming to this hard-hit town, think again. Not even two weeks have passed since a gunman opened fire on pupils and teachers at the town’s elementary school, and already the music of herald angels singing has replaced the noise of ugly gunfire.But, yes, the grieving will go on for a while. Forever.There were two children missing from last night’s gathering.They were first-graders who were supposed to be in the pageant, before they were slain.One was a little boy who had been set to play a shepherd.The other was beautiful little Olivia Engel, 6, who was going to be an angel in the play.“Everybody was thinking about [Olivia]’’ as the other tiny pageant angels entered the auditorium for their big moment, said Pam Arsenault, the parish education director at St. Rose of Lima Church, which sponsored the pageant.“She’s the real angel now,” Arsenault said.Even the dead children’s absence can’t keep the joy of life away from this town. Nowhere has anyone sang “Silent Night” with more reverence than the people did here last night. They sang “The First Noel” like it could have been their last.Boys and girls, parents and grandparents filled the 1,000 seats in the high-school auditorium and lined the walls beyond the aisles. On stage were a dozen poinsettias and a manger filled with the hope of the world.Monsignor Robert Weiss, pastor at St. Rose, talked about the star that guided the Three Wise Men to the newborn Jesus.“Tonight, we rely on that same light to guide us like it did that night,” he told the crowd.Referring to the 20 children who died in the slaughter, Weiss said, “Tonight, we have 20 new lights.”In the lobby, a Santa Claus gave out hugs and candy canes near a table filled with gingerbread houses made by students.Some of the children had just been to funerals only days before, but their faces lit up yesterday as if they were at a party.About a mile away, a makeshift memorial of teddy bears and flowers honors the dead children and six teachers. Gifts and cards have flooded the local post office.Arsenault said she has been inspired by the community. Not once, she said, did she hear talk of canceling Christmas.“Everybody keeps saying to me, ‘I’ve never been prouder to live in Newtown,’ ” Arsenault said.“The families are just inspiring. They just eulogized their own child, and I’d see them sitting in the back pew for another funeral comforting another family.”There is still innocence here. There are smiles, and playing and singing and fun. Christmas celebrates the greatest gift of all.No gun can silence the laughter. No death can steal the joy. http://m.nypost.com/p/news/national/comfort_and_joy_in_newtown_OS49QouwOyrNryLRuyKk4M

 

[kazyeeqen]

Adversity can (but doesn't always) inspire the best in people. But it's the time after that'll be hard for the families. They are probably mostly still in shock, it's the next year or ten when the real emptiness and hopelessness can set in for them, long after everyone not affected has almost completely forgotten about them.

 

[mlp]

I'm starting to think that the best way to deal with this situation is to remove the special protections from liability that Congress has given gun manufacturers:

Letting a lawsuit go forward may not sound like a big deal, but Congress enacted a law in 2005 — under heavy lobbying from the NRA and the gun industry — that gives gun manufacturers and dealers broad immunity from being sued. The Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act (PLCAA) shields the gun industry even when it makes guns that are unnecessarily dangerous and sells them recklessly.


Read more: http://ideas.time.com/2012/12/24/why-is-congress-protecting-the-gun-industry/#ixzz2GBb3z6ro

 

[ledboots]

A few recent US slaughters stopped by armed citizens that weren't included in the Mothrr Jones study due to their being fewer than four victims in their methodology.
At the recent Portland shooting, for example, no explanation was given for the amazing fact that the assailant managed to kill only two people in the mall during the busy Christmas season.It turns out, concealed-carry-holder Nick Meli hadn't noticed that the mall was a gun-free zone. He pointed his (otherwise legal) gun at the shooter as he paused to reload, and the next shot was the attempted mass murderer killing himself.
Mayan Palace Theater, San Antonio, Texas, last week:Jesus Manuel Garcia shoots at a movie theater, a police car and bystanders from the nearby China Garden restaurant; as he enters the movie theater, guns blazing, an armed off-duty cop shoots Garcia four times, stopping the attack. Total dead: Zero
.Winnemucca, Nev., 2008: Ernesto Villagomez opens fire in a crowded restaurant; concealed carry permit-holder shoots him dead. Total dead: Two. (I'm excluding the shooters' deaths in these examples.)
Appalachian School of Law, 2002: Crazed immigrant shoots the dean and a professor, then begins shooting students; as he goes for more ammunition, two armed students point their guns at him, allowing a third to tackle him. Total dead: Three.
Santee, 2001: Student begins shooting his classmates — as well as the "trained campus supervisor"; an off-duty cop who happened to be bringing his daughter to school that day points his gun at the shooter, holding him until more police arrive. Total dead: Two.
Pearl High School, Mississippi, 1997: After shooting several people at his high school, student heads for the junior high school; assistant principal Joel Myrick retrieves a .45 pistol from his car and points it at the gunman's head, ending the murder spree. Total dead: Two.
Edinboro, Pa., 1998: A student shoots up a junior high school dance being held at a restaurant; restaurant owner pulls out his shotgun and stops the gunman. Total dead: One.
By contrast, the shootings in gun-free zones invariably result in far higher casualty figures — Sikh temple, Oak Creek, Wis. (six dead); Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, Va. (32 dead); Columbine High School, Columbine, Colo. (12 dead); Amish school, Lancaster County, Pa. (five little girls killed); public school, Craighead County, Ark. (five killed, including four little girls).All these took place in gun-free zones, resulting in lots of people getting killed — and thereby warranting inclusion in the Mother Jones study.

 

[mlp]

Not sure where you're getting your info, Ledboots, but Columbine had an armed guard at the time of that massacre. I haven't bothered to check the rest of your info, but that's a pretty glaring error. I also notice that you didn't mention Fort Hood - I wonder why?

 

[mlp]

The Clackamas mall shooting - so far, the only person to confirm Nick Meli's story is - Nick Meli himself. Of the many thousands of people in the mall, apparently no one witnessed his self described act of heroism?

The Mayan Palace Theater shooting - that was an off duty police officer who shot the gunman.

The Winnemucca shooting - that occurred at a bar - a gunfight involving two families engaged in a long term feud. Hardly a stellar example of why people should be carrying firearms, I would think.

The Appalachian School of Law shooting - again, two law enforcement officers who retrieved their weapons from their vehicles.

I guess I could look up the other incidents you describe, but I have to go get the chickens and ducks in.

 

[mlp]

Hmmm... from the Wiki article on the Appalachian School of Law shooting:

According to Bridges: at the first sound of gunfire, he and fellow student Mikael Gross, unbeknownst to each other, ran to their vehicles to retrieve their personally-owned firearms[6] placed in their glove compartments. Mikael Gross, a police officer from Grifton, North Carolina retrieved a 9 mm pistol and body armor.[7] Bridges, a county sheriff's deputy from Asheville, North Carolina[8] retrieved his .357 Magnum pistol from beneath the driver's seat of his Chevrolet Tahoe.[9] Bridges and Gross approached Odighizuwa from different angles, with Bridges yelling at Odighizuwa to drop his gun.[10] Odighizuwa then dropped his firearm and was subdued by several other unarmed students, including Ted Besen and Todd Ross.[11]

According to Besen: Before Odighizuwa saw Bridges and Gross with their weapons, Odighizuwa set down his gun and raised his arms like he was mocking people.[12] Besen, a former Marine and police officer in Wilmington, North Carolina, engaged in a physical confrontation with Odighizuwa, and knocked him to the ground. Bridges and Gross then arrived with their guns once Odighizuwa was tackled.[5] Additional witnesses at the scene stated they did not see Bridges or Gross with their guns at the time Besen started subduing Odighizuwa.[13] Once Odighizuwa was securely held down, Gross went back to his vehicle and retrieved handcuffs to detain Odighizuwa until police could arrive.

Interesting, huh? If these are the best stories that the pro-gun people can come up with to illustrate how armed civilians prevent murder by guns, one has to wonder.

 

[mlp]

Santee shooting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Andrew_Williams Off duty police officers at the school called for back up. By the time backup came and the officers approached the shooter, he was kneeling in the bathroom.

Pearl High School shooting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_High_School_shooting (The shooter had already left the school when he was detained by the vice principal in the parking lot.)

Edinboro shooting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parker_Middle_School_dance_shooting This is the only one where reality bears any resemblance to the pro gun version, but apparently the reason there was only one dead is that the kid was a bad shot - he had used up all/most of his ammunition by the time the restaurant owner pulled out his shotgun.

I should also note that referring to grade schools, middle schools and high schools as "gun free zones" for the purposes of advocating the advantages of having people wander around armed quite frankly makes me gag with disgust. Shameful.

 

[ledboots]

From the NY Times on the law school shooting:
''There were pools of blood all over,'' Chase Goodman, a 27-year-old student, said in describing a scene punctuated with screams and gunfire.''When I got there there were bodies laying everywhere,'' said Dr. Briggs, who arrived at the first emergency alarm. Two victims suffered point-blank wounds ''execution style,'' one doctor at the scene said.Mr. Odighizuwa was subdued by three law students who were experienced police officers, the authorities said.''We're trained to run into the situation instead away from it,'' said one of the three, Mikael Gross, 34, of Charlotte, N.C., who ran to his car for his bulletproof vest and service pistol before tackling the suspect.Mr. Gross said that when he returned to the building he saw the gunman strike Ted Besen, another former officer, in the head. Mr. Gross said that he and another former officer, Tracy Bridges, then tackled the man. http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/17/us/3-slain-at-law-school-student-is-held.html

 

[ledboots]

The Pearl High shooter was headed to his car to the Junior High School to kill more kids when he was stopped by an armed teacher, which I am sure your wiki link mentions. I'm not going to argue every case with you.

You want no guns, fine, have it your way, take away every gun and bullet. There will still be sick people killing innocent children.

 

[mlp]

From the NY Times on the law school shooting:
''There were pools of blood all over,'' Chase Goodman, a 27-year-old student, said in describing a scene punctuated with screams and gunfire.''When I got there there were bodies laying everywhere,'' said Dr. Briggs, who arrived at the first emergency alarm. Two victims suffered point-blank wounds ''execution style,'' one doctor at the scene said.Mr. Odighizuwa was subdued by three law students who were experienced police officers, the authorities said.''We're trained to run into the situation instead away from it,'' said one of the three, Mikael Gross, 34, of Charlotte, N.C., who ran to his car for his bulletproof vest and service pistol before tackling the suspect.Mr. Gross said that when he returned to the building he saw the gunman strike Ted Besen, another former officer, in the head. Mr. Gross said that he and another former officer, Tracy Bridges, then tackled the man. http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/17/us/3-slain-at-law-school-student-is-held.html

What's your point? Is anyone at all arguing that police officers should not be armed? Or that police officers don't stop murders? (I think that's actually part of their job description.)

That article was written in the immediate aftermath of the shooting, and does not address the fact that the other people who were there said that Besen, who was unarmed (although also a law enforcement officer) had already tackled the shooter to the ground.

You're also kind of ignoring the fact that when the shooter dropped his gun, he was out of ammunition.

Again, this is the best that the pro gun lobby can come up with in the past couple of decades? It would be laughable if it weren't so tragic.

 

[mlp]

The Pearl High shooter was headed to his car to the Junior High School to kill more kids when he was stopped by an armed teacher, which I am sure your wiki link mentions.

Errr...no. But it's a nice addition to your story.

You were the one who brought these up as reasons why civilians should be armed. If you're not willing and able to defend the accuracy of the stories you cite, you shouldn't cite them. Now, if fiction writing is your game, more power to you.

 

[das_nut]

That report is at least 15 years old. Do you have a current source?

15 year old source isn't the best, but its better than speculating based on our gut feelings.

Do you have any indication that the means of acquiring weapons has drastically changed in the past 15 years?

I think that's a great example of how your own weapons can be used against you.

I don't understand that myself. From what I heard, she was trying to commit her own son. Yet she thought that having weapons around was a good idea.

Dunno about you, but if I'm trying to commit someone because I think they are a danger, even my knives will be locked up.

Letting a lawsuit go forward may not sound like a big deal, but Congress enacted a law in 2005 — under heavy lobbying from the NRA and the gun industry — that gives gun manufacturers and dealers broad immunity from being sued. The Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act (PLCAA) shields the gun industry even when it makes guns that are unnecessarily dangerous and sells them recklessly.

My impression from accidental gun deaths is that its mostly people who are acting like idiots. While I think it wouldn't be a bad idea to have weapons that would clearly indicate if they are loaded, and the state of the safety, in the grand scheme of things, I doubt it would prevent most accidental gun deaths. Accidental gun deaths are a small fraction of total gun deaths (homicide or suicide are about 98% of all gun deaths). Swimming pools are a bigger risk, yet nobody appears to be calling for increasing liability on pool manufacturers.

Now, opening up gun manufacturers to liability would be a great way for anti-gun advocates to tie up gun manufacturers in court. Which I suspect would be the point for opening up gun manufacturers to liability.

Which leads to another problem - a lot of the most vocal advocates for gun control are gun abolitionists of one stripe or another. Gun owners aren't dumb, they realize this. Which makes implementing effective gun control difficult since its clear where the real intent lies.

 

[beancounter]

15 year old source isn't the best, but its better than speculating based on our gut feelings.

Do you have any indication that the means of acquiring weapons has drastically changed in the past 15 years?

In 15 years a lot can change. For example, when that study was made, the Internet wasn't a significant factor in gun sales.

 

[das_nut]

In 15 years a lot can change. For example, when that study was made, the Internet wasn't a significant factor in gun sales.

True. But is it a factor? The internet wasn't also a significant factor in instructions on how to build a fully automatic lower receiver. (Once again, I think the deity-I-doubt-exists for most criminals being idiots.)

 

[mlp]

My impression from accidental gun deaths is that its mostly people who are acting like idiots. While I think it wouldn't be a bad idea to have weapons that would clearly indicate if they are loaded, and the state of the safety, in the grand scheme of things, I doubt it would prevent most accidental gun deaths. Accidental gun deaths are a small fraction of total gun deaths (homicide or suicide are about 98% of all gun deaths). Swimming pools are a bigger risk, yet nobody appears to be calling for increasing liability on pool manufacturers.

The PLCAA isn't about accidental gun deaths. Its purpose is to prevent firearms manufacturers and dealers from being held liable for crimes committed with their products.

You might be familiar with dram shop liability, pursuant to which an establishment selling drinks to someone to the point of inebriation can be held liable for personal injury/death caused by the drunk person. The point of the PLCAA was to prevent people from suing if a dealer sold a gun to someone who could reasonably be expected to commit a crime with the gun.

But it's nice to see that you're still not tired of that false equivalency of gun = swimming pool = roller skates = whatever.

 

[ledboots]

"Some interesting news has broken in the wake of the latest push for gun control by President Obama and Senate Democrats: Obama sends his kids to a school where armed guards are used as a matter of fact.

The school, Sidwell Friends School in Washington, DC, has 11 security officers and is seeking to hire a new police officer as we speak. If you dismiss this by saying, "Of course they have armed guards -- they get Secret Service protection," then you've missed the larger point. The larger point is that this is standard operating procedure for the school, period. And this is the reason people like NBC's David Gregory send their kids to Sidwell, they know their kids will be protected from the carnage that befell kids at a school where armed guards weren't used (and weren't even allowed).Shame on President Obama for seeking more gun control and for trying to prevent the parents of other school children from doing what he has clearly done for his own. His children sit under the protection guns afford, while the children of regular Americans are sacrificed. "

 

[das_nut]

The PLCAA isn't about accidental gun deaths. Its purpose is to prevent firearms manufacturers and dealers from being held liable for crimes committed with their products.

Manufacturers and dealers?

You might be familiar with dram shop liability, pursuant to which an establishment selling drinks to someone to the point of inebriation can be held liable for personal injury/death caused by the drunk person. The point of the PLCAA was to prevent people from suing if a dealer sold a gun to someone who could reasonably be expected to commit a crime with the gun.

Or just dealers?

Bars can be held responsible for selling booze to someone who is obviously drunk. But last I heard, the liquor manufacturer could not be held responsible.