Disappointed in cholesterol test results

[Blissful]

Meyersaurus said - "Now, your body will take a long time to change as many reserves of your body can sustain for several months (if not years). That's why people have been discarding my argument that B12 is a myth and I don't have a deficiency and therefore don't need supplements (I have been vegan for over 3 years). "

Well , l agree completely with Forest Nymph - this is a dangerous statement .. I have been a vegan for 42 years , and l didn't take B12 supplements for the first 4 or 5 years , ending up with a severe deficiency .. A burning ember landed on my hand and l could not feel it burning me . I had also developed tingling and numbness around my mouth and other body bits - the start of nerve damage ..

B12 is vital for the functioning of your nervous system , which affects every part of you , eventually . A severe enough deficiency , for long enough , could ( and has) cause permanent damage .

Also , it is common among older people (and people with absorption problems) - they often need B12 injections or supplements , even on the average animal-eating diet .

Wishing good health to all ..

 

[Bob Who]

Blissful,

Did your numbness completely vanish once your B12 levels were corrected?

 

[Blissful]

Yes , but it took a few months . It was a big lesson for me . I have since taken good care of this body nutritionally ..
Health is a big part of quality of life . It's not the whole deal , but it certainly helps !

Blessings to you ..

 

[Meyersaurus]

This is super dangerous. You could develop mental illness, blindness, or paralysis, or stroke and/or dementia as you age.

Your body stores B12 for around 3 years. Some people may have stores a little longer, but it's often people who have been vegan around three to five years who start questioning their veganism and if they need to eat animal products ....one of the main culprits is not supplementing B12. Other common problems are vitamin D and people who aren't eating enough flax/hemp/walnuts or taking a DHA supplement. That is, if you're not one of the crazed orthorexic types living off of less calories than is needed to sustain adult life (it's pretty obvious, their hair starts falling out and they try to cure it with more starvation methods like wheat grass and green smoothies).

You are spreading dangerous misinformation, you need to stop.

I don't think I am spreading misinformation. I have been a vegetarian for my entire life and as a kid my favourite foods were salad and broccoli, I hated cheese and eggs, and I was picky about everything (even pasta and such) so I'm pretty sure, I would have developed something by now. I grew up to be healthy and of good condition.

 

[Meyersaurus]

Sorry - no oils are healthy to consume. It may or may not create a problem for an individual, but it's not at all "healthy" to consume oil (aside from the naturally occurring oils found in whole plant foods).

Those are the oils I was referring to, I think.

 

[Emma JC]

Those are the oils I was referring to, I think.

There is a difference between oils and fats and that is maybe where the confusion is coming from.

Our bodies do need fats and those of us who avoid "oils" are not suggesting avoiding "fats". It is just best to try to consume your fats in their whole form with all the nutrients and fibre etc.

Emma JC

 

[Jamie in Chile]

I was a bit lost above. Is someone saying that B12 is not necessary?

Is someone making some version of the argument "I have never taken B12, and I am fine, therefore you don't need to take B12."

This is basically a logical fallacy. If something (say not taking B12) will have no effect 90% of the time*, have a serious negative effect 10% of the time, and never have a positive effect, then we should not do it. A lot of medical advice is like that.

It's easy to see this by analogy. Compare to these obvious false arguments:

1. My gran smoked 50 a day and she is 93 now and never had an issue, so you should be fine to smoke 50 a day for the next 50 years.
2. I have drunk soft drinks and ate pizza every day for 50 years and never eaten fruit and veg once, and I am fine, so the same must be true for everyone.
3. I played Russian roulette yesterday and didn't die, so it must be safe.
4. I blindfolded myself and walked across a motorway yesterday for a dare, and nothing happened to me, so nothing would happen to you if you did it.

Medicine is about probabilities not personal experiences.

The key point (I will repeat, because this is the important bit) if an action (such as taking a supplement) has a small chance of a positive benefit, then it is still worth doing even if the most likely outcome is no impact at all, provided the risk of negative effect is negligible.

Too much B12 (within reason) doesn't do anything.

*I'm not saying it is fine to not take B12 for 90% of people, just pointing out that, even IF it were, this would be no argument against taking B12. Perhaps 90% of vegans would get sick or have some other bad outcome within a certain number of years if they didn't take B12. Or perhaps it's 10%. Either way, this would not change the fact that vegans should supplement B12 (or otherwise make sure they get it).

 

[TofuRobot]

There is a difference between oils and fats and that is maybe where the confusion is coming from.

Our bodies do need fats and those of us who avoid "oils" are not suggesting avoiding "fats". It is just best to try to consume your fats in their whole form with all the nutrients and fibre etc.

Emma JC

Very true, @Emma JC . I more than make up for the lack of oil in my diet by eating an exhorbitant amount of avocados and nuts. FAR more than I ever used to (and it, for me, has not had any kind of negative affect whatsoever). To think I used to avoid eating nuts and avocados because I thought they were "too fattening..." (Back when I used to eat cheese and never gave oil much of a second thought.)

 

[Deleted member 4044]

exhorbitant amount of avocados and nuts

Curious about how much this is? I’m still fighting this mindset- I eat 4 Brazil nuts a day (they’re supposed to be good for thyroid conditions) and sometimes think I should cut back to 2.
So it’s been 10 days since I cut out eggs entirely. I’ve cut down on oil big time. I’ve really been noticing how often I would automatically reach for it.

 

[TofuRobot]

Curious about how much this is? I’m still fighting this mindset- I eat 4 Brazil nuts a day (they’re supposed to be good for thyroid conditions) and sometimes think I should cut back to 2.
So it’s been 10 days since I cut out eggs entirely. I’ve cut down on oil big time. I’ve really been noticing how often I would automatically reach for it.

I eat 1/2-1 avocados every day, probably at least a cup or more of nuts (walnuts & almonds mostly), and probably an average of 7 dates/day (not including the 1-3 Lara Bars I am midly addicted to, and doesn't include sesame seeds and sunflower seeds which end up going on almost everything). My recent labs showed nothing out of normal for lipids or glucose. I only take an algae-based omega 3 occasionally (or not at all lately since I ran out... I'll be buying some again, but won't be taking it *all* the time unless I end up with different results on my next labs).

Thanks for the heads-up about Brazil nuts. I didn't know that! I was researching diet as it relates to thyroid issue when my initial labs showed elevatied TSH, but the subsequent throid panel I had done was "perfect" so I stopped. I may reach for a couple of Brazil nuts just on occasion just for good measure

As a side note - there are SOO many foods I eat now that I didn't used to eat, since becoming WF vegan. I think people mistakenly call a plant-based diet a "restrictive" one, but I've found it to be quite the opposite. I seriously never ate bananas, if you can believe that. Now I eat like 2-3/day, plus an orange, plus there are tons more fruits and veggies I have tried that I just never bought befpre. The only "restriction" that I've experienced is eating out at restaurants. I worked in that industry for 9 cumulative years... And I used to enjoy/romanticize going out to eat, but there's literally no restaurant that doesn't use oil - and they look at your really funny when you ask for something made without it. So, I've had to change my way of thinking and what I romanticize. I've had to shift my thinking - the things I romaticize have changed quite significantly, but I do kinda struggle with the restaurant thing a little bit..

PS. My favorite thing to do is to split open a date and shove walnuts or almonds in it. Other people eat candy - I eat nut-filled dates

 

[Lou]

I try to keep my fat intake in the 20 - 30% range. less than 50 grams a day. Which is less than the RDA. Still, I think less would be better but I have found that it's very hard to do.

Almost all my fats come from seeds and nuts. Peanut butter seems to be the biggest contributor. But even cutting out PB doesn't seem to make a big difference.

And speaking of dates and nuts. I was just given a box of LaraBars as a thank you gift. The cashew and date ones are my favorites.

 

[TofuRobot]

And speaking of dates and nuts. I was just given a box of LaraBars as a thank you gift. The cashew and date ones are my favorites.

That's my favorite too! Cashew Cookie and Cherry Pie - I could eat those all day long

As for peanut butter, I am not a huge fan. When I was growing up my mom never made me PB&J sandwiches. So when I graduated and went off to college, I OD'd on PB&J and white bread, LOL (something else we never had). It's like all I ate for weeks until I finally got sick of it. I'm still damaged from that experience. Tahini, though... That's works for me on on toast - or almond butter

 

[Lou]

I didn't get any cherry pie. Apple pie. Chocolate chip. And peanut butter.

 

[TofuRobot]

I didn't get any cherry pie. Apple pie. Chocolate chip. And peanut butter.

I'll send you some Cherry Pie Lara Bars, Lou. They're SO good!

 

[Jamie in Chile]

Many of the best sources of selenium are animal products, but brazil nuts are very high in selenium so are a bonus anyway for veg diets.

Selenium – Vegan Health

www.veganhealth.org

:
"Selenium intake is more related to the selenium content of the soil than to dietary pattern. U.S. and Canadian soil appears to be adequate in selenium. Studies of vegetarians and vegans in the U.S. have shown them to have adequate intakes. Selenium is found in many foods, but in higher amounts in Brazil nuts, whole grains (whole-wheat bread, oatmeal, barley), white rice, and beans."

 

[Tadpole]

I was a bit lost above. Is someone saying that B12 is not necessary?

Is someone making some version of the argument "I have never taken B12, and I am fine, therefore you don't need to take B12."

This is basically a logical fallacy. If something (say not taking B12) will have no effect 90% of the time*, have a serious negative effect 10% of the time, and never have a positive effect, then we should not do it. A lot of medical advice is like that.

It's easy to see this by analogy. Compare to these obvious false arguments:

1. My gran smoked 50 a day and she is 93 now and never had an issue, so you should be fine to smoke 50 a day for the next 50 years.
2. I have drunk soft drinks and ate pizza every day for 50 years and never eaten fruit and veg once, and I am fine, so the same must be true for everyone.
3. I played Russian roulette yesterday and didn't die, so it must be safe.
4. I blindfolded myself and walked across a motorway yesterday for a dare, and nothing happened to me, so nothing would happen to you if you did it.

Medicine is about probabilities not personal experiences.

The key point (I will repeat, because this is the important bit) if an action (such as taking a supplement) has a small chance of a positive benefit, then it is still worth doing even if the most likely outcome is no impact at all, provided the risk of negative effect is negligible.

Too much B12 (within reason) doesn't do anything.

*I'm not saying it is fine to not take B12 for 90% of people, just pointing out that, even IF it were, this would be no argument against taking B12. Perhaps 90% of vegans would get sick or have some other bad outcome within a certain number of years if they didn't take B12. Or perhaps it's 10%. Either way, this would not change the fact that vegans should supplement B12 (or otherwise make sure they get it).

So by this reasoning any vitamins purported to be beneficial to health in some way, no matter how significant, should be taken by individuals?
This would be a mighty expensive and unnecessary venture.
The MOST important point is to not believe everything you read and do not trust the 'reports' that inform manufacturers of such 'miracle' supplements. Just eat well man.

 

[Jamie in Chile]

I don't know the answer to your question, but if something had only a tiny benefit, it might be worth not paying for. But I think the risk of not taking B12 for vegans is significant,

Eating a broadly healthy diet, while making sure you get specific sources of iodine, calcium, and Omega 3, should cover all the other vitamins usually for a vegan.

You can use nutritional yeast (so I've heard, never tried it) which has B12 in it if you don't like the idea of a supplement.

I've also read that B12 supplement is added to animal feed so, if that's true, most people may be getting B12 as a supplement indirectly anyway.