George Zimmerman trial

[das_nut]

Mischief didn't say 'remarkable feats of strength.' He said 'remarkable feats.'

Oftentimes superhero's have several remarkable abilities which may or may not include strength.

Mischief said: "One has to wonder why someone who is capable of such remarkable feats didn't have the strength to throw off someone who didn't outweigh him, instead of shooting the person."

If he's not implying that Zimmerman had remarkable strength, then his statement is a non sequitur.

 

[Mischief]

And in other news, today George Zimmerman helped a little old lady across the street.

 

[Dedalus]

Mischief said: "One has to wonder why someone who is capable of such remarkable feats didn't have the strength to throw off someone who didn't outweigh him, instead of shooting the person."

If he's not implying that Zimmerman had remarkable strength, then his statement is a non sequitur.

It would not take remarkable strength to throw off someone who didn't outweigh you. I believe Mischief's point is: How can GZ be capable of such heroic rescue efforts - and yet lack in having the basic abilities that one would be granted via the law of physics as it pertains to human anatomy - IE: a larger, heavier man should have little difficulty physically moving/removing a much lighter man.

...unless of course GZ was lying about that whole 'he was on top of me thing.'

 

[das_nut]

It would not take remarkable strength to throw off someone who didn't outweigh you. I believe Mischief's point is: How can GZ be capable of such heroic rescue efforts - and yet lack in having the basic abilities that one would be granted via the law of physics as it pertains to human anatomy - IE: a larger, heavier man should have little difficulty physically moving/removing a much lighter man.

...unless of course GZ was lying about that whole 'he was on top of me thing.'

Except a witness verifies that the other person is on top.

Could it be that while Zimmerman was larger, he was also weaker?

 

[Envy]

It's not always as easy to just "throw someone off", especially if you are in a disadvantageous position.

 

[Mischief]

It would not take remarkable strength to throw off someone who didn't outweigh you. I believe Mischief's point is: How can GZ be capable of such heroic rescue efforts - and yet lack in having the basic abilities that one would be granted via the law of physics as it pertains to human anatomy - IE: a larger, heavier man should have little difficulty physically moving/removing a much lighter man.

...unless of course GZ was lying about that whole 'he was on top of me thing.'

Exactly.

 

[Dedalus]

Except a witness verifies that the other person is on top.

...and another witness claimed vice-versa.

Could it be that while Zimmerman was larger, he was also weaker?

Perhaps. By what parameters would we be able to measure that? Or are you just speculating?

 

[Mischief]

I'm trying to visualize a scenario where a lighter person has an able bodied heavier one so well pinned to the ground (while simultaneously slamming his head into the sidewalk) that the bigger person doesn't have a chance of freeing himself, but there's enough space between their bodies that the heavier guy can still get to his gun, pull it up, and shoot the lighter guy, not just in his chest, but straight into his heart.

It's a really odd juxtapositioning of helplessness and complete effectiveness. I guess it points to Zimmerman's superhero status. One moment, an ungainly, helpless nerd, the next - Super Z!

 

[cornsail]

It would not take remarkable strength to throw off someone who didn't outweigh you. I believe Mischief's point is: How can GZ be capable of such heroic rescue efforts - and yet lack in having the basic abilities that one would be granted via the law of physics as it pertains to human anatomy - IE: a larger, heavier man should have little difficulty physically moving/removing a much lighter man.

So if I'm on my back struggling to get someone off of me whose on top I'd have an easier time if I gained 20 pounds? How? It doesn't seem like you can leverage your weight against someone from below them.

...unless of course GZ was lying about that whole 'he was on top of me thing.'

The forensics seemed to make it very clear that TM was on top. And Good's testimony also places TM on top.

 

[Mischief]

So if I'm on my back struggling to get someone off of me whose on top I'd have an easier time if I gained 20 pounds? How? It doesn't seem like you can leverage your weight against someone from below them.

Have you ever heard of rolling?

 

[beancounter]

I'm trying to visualize a scenario where a lighter person has an able bodied heavier one so well pinned to the ground (while simultaneously slamming his head into the sidewalk) that the bigger person doesn't have a chance of freeing himself, but there's enough space between their bodies that the heavier guy can still get to his gun, pull it up, and shoot the lighter guy, not just in his chest, but straight into his heart.

I found this a tad odd too. A fine example of what CZ, a proven liar, just might leave out of his version of events.

 

[das_nut]

...and another witness claimed vice-versa.

Which witness was that?

Perhaps. By what parameters would we be able to measure that? Or are you just speculating?

Well, according to the trainer at the gym, Zimmerman was out of shape. Does this mean that Martin is in shape? Who knows?

If Zimmerman was stronger and attacked Martin, Martin should have had more injuries.

If Zimmerman was stronger, and was attacked by Martin, the element of surprise could explain his injuries.

Zimmerman being stronger/a better fighter than Martin really seems to be evidence for Martin starting the assault.

 

[Mischief]

According to the version of the story that some of you are inclined to believe, TM was on top of GZ, had him pinned to the ground with GZ unable to get away from underneath, all the while slamming his head into the sidewalk. Right?

Now, I just checked a photo of TM, and my memory was accurate; TM had only two hands, attached to two arms, no more.

How does one repeatedly "slam" onto concrete the head of someone lying on the ground underneath one, someone who has a shaved head with no hair to get hold of? It takes two hands; to "slam" the head into the ground, you first have to raise that head (and actually the shoulders, to get a real "slam") and propel it down. (Not even mentioning the fact that those couple of minor grazes on the back of GZ's head are not at all consistent with a head that was "slammed.")

So, your opponent has his hands full repeatedly lifting part of your body up and slamming it into the ground, and the only thing you are capable of doing with your two free hands and arms is to reach down and get your gun and shoot him in the chest?!

It just doesn't make sense on any level, no matter how hard you try to spin it, unless your only thought is to shoot him.

 

[Calliegirl]

And it seems TM wasn't all that strong either. After repeatedly smashing GZ's head into the cement, all the damage he managed to do was inflict a few scrapes and scratches.

 

[Dedalus]

Which witness was that?

Selma Mora told the Florida court Thursday that at some point she saw a man in “patterns between black and red” on top, ABC reports. Zimmerman was wearing a red and black jacket that night.

If Zimmerman was stronger and attacked Martin, Martin should have had more injuries.

You need blood flowing in order to get a bruise. TM may have been dead before there was time for any bruising to occur.


If Zimmerman's head was slammed into the concrete by TM who was on top of him, and this was the moment when GZ felt his life was in danger, then why was TM's body found a distance away in the grass?

 

[Dedalus]

So, your opponent has his hands full repeatedly lifting part of your body up and slamming it into the ground, and the only thing you are capable of doing with your two free hands and arms is to reach down and get your gun and shoot him in the chest?

...and get a gun that was holstered behind him. GZ would have been laying on the weapon.

 

[Wolfie]

Have you ever heard of rolling?

I once woke up with a 90-pound dog on top of me who had decided to make me his bed. Okay, not exactly the same situation as this but I couldn't roll the dog off and he wasn't even beating my head into the ground when it happened. I was pinned even though I outweigh the dog. Besides, if someone is beating your head into the ground, you probably aren't thinking clearly and your first thought isn't going to be "Gee, I need to roll over and get this guy off me." Your first thought will be stop him before he kills me.

 

[das_nut]

Selma Mora told the Florida court Thursday that at some point she saw a man in “patterns between black and red” on top, ABC reports. Zimmerman was wearing a red and black jacket that night.

She testified that she went outside after she heard the gunshot. She looked out her window before she heard the gunshot, but could not tell who was on top.

You need blood flowing in order to get a bruise. TM may have been dead before there was time for any bruising to occur.

Zimmerman managed what appears to be a broken nose (according to his doctor) and lacerations on the back of his head (and a wet back). If he was on top, and received such injuries, shouldn't a pinned down Trayvon received much worse visible injuries (other than the gunshot wound)?

If Zimmerman's head was slammed into the concrete by TM who was on top of him, and this was the moment when GZ felt his life was in danger, then why was TM's body found a distance away in the grass?

According to the prosecutor's witness, Trayvon could have been conscious for awhile after he was shot. I suspect another possibility - they may have moved during the scuffle (with the person on the bottom trying to get away) or that Zimmerman may have confused getting his head slammed against the ground with his head being slammed against the concrete. However, the problem with that scenario is the head lacerations - ground shouldn't cause such injuries unless it was rocky (and I see no evidence that it was). The body was rolled over by those who were attempting to give medical help, but it still doesn't place it close enough to the sidewalk. However, Zimmerman's keys were found near the sidewalk, quite a distance away, near the T. Why is that? Did the fight happen in multiple stages? Maybe Zimmerman got knocked down near the T, then got up again or tried to get away? Maybe he chased Martin after the initial confrontation.

 

[cornsail]

Have you ever heard of rolling?

Before I respond to this would you mind responding to post #99? It's not that I expect everything I post to be responded to (hell I expect most of it not to be). It's just that when you make a personal claim about someone like "You believe everything GZ says" and ignore requests for clarification/explanation, it comes off a bit like bad faith. Especially when I don't remember posting anything indicating that I believe things that GZ says, let alone everything he says.

 

[das_nut]

Before I respond to this would you mind responding to post #99? It's not that I expect everything I post to be responded to (hell I expect most of it not to be). It's just that when you make a personal claim about someone like "You believe everything GZ says" and ignore requests for clarification/explanation, it comes off a bit like bad faith. Especially when I don't remember posting anything indicating that I believe things that GZ says, let alone everything he says.

Is there a person in this thread in the "Zimmerman should have been found not-guilty" camp that is 100% pro-Zimmerman?

I'm not aware of one.

I think what most people who support the verdict in this thread is arguing that the evidence does not prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman was guilty. There's some things about Zimmerman's story that is questionable. There's things I wish I knew more about that I never could find in the news and wasn't focused on in the trial.

But there's a world of difference between admitting I don't know, and saying "well, he must be guilty".