Is it really cricket, though?

And I reiterate that intent is probably not a useful metric. Intention is primarily a human matter; we care whether the death of a person was intended or it wasn't.
Intent is not only a useful metric it is the Definition of a vegan.

Ooops, I just checked and the Vegan society states "seeks to exclude". that sounds like intends to me.

I suppose to be fair in a total utilitarian sense you could do the math. Which of these options cause the least harm? But who has the time and expertise to do those calculations. Much easier to just say, I'm going to avoid all forms of animal exploitation and that includes all kinds of animals, too.

In your defense many people have walked your path before you. There are Bee-Gans who eat honey. And there are Bivalve vegans who eat oysters and clams. I've read their arguments and they are sound and logical. But I kind of feel like those "exemptions" are more like loopholes than ethics.

And I still think the slippery slope is important here. Number of deaths? you should eat cows not crickets.
IMHO its best to stay away from the math. I think the uniformed ideology is just a little too much. Since I don't know how to measure cruelty or suffering I have decided to avoid causing as much suffering as possible. And That includes avoiding products made with bugs.

I'm well aware of the fact that farming of plants for food causing some harm, but I think for me that just goes into the unavoidable and unintentional column.
 
There is a big difference between tribal people living off the land and people who get there food from stores.
Farmed insects would be fed a diet of grains, and quickly become CAFO farming.
Just as people keeping cows and goats for milk, chickens for eggs, sheep to be shorn for winter clothing started innocently enough, so would this 'environmentally good' practice of eating bugs.
If you want to poke a stick in a termite hole on a hiking trip to get you through the day, so be it, but to promote insect eating as sustainable? I think not

I am not promoting sustainable insect farming. Nor am I suggesting anything about where insects as a food source might go. I am asking whether, in the case I describe, it is consistent with vegan ethics to choose the crickets.

To summarise:

Many insects die in plant farming.
Some estimates suggest that number is very high.
A local business produces crickets for food. They are fed food waste from other stores.
They are killed humanely, on first blush more humanely than are cattle etc.
I would consume perhaps 15,000 crickets per year.
It is not known whether crickets are subjects of a life or whether they are sentient in a way that commands a moral duty.
On some estimates, to eat a similar quantity of protein from say chickpeas, perhaps substantially more insects are killed. There is a good case for claiming as many as 10 to 100 times as many. We do not know, but the evidence is in favour of higher numbers.
I am concerned with possible choices right now, not in some hypothetical future.
Veganism is concerned with doing least harm.

Why would this not be consistent with veganism?
 
it's not vegan because it's directly killing animals. If the crickets are being farmed (most likely) then that's different than accidentally killing a few bugs. Intent is very important.
 
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I am not promoting sustainable insect farming. Nor am I suggesting anything about where insects as a food source might go. I am asking whether, in the case I describe, it is consistent with vegan ethics to choose the crickets.

To summarise:

Many insects die in plant farming.
Some estimates suggest that number is very high.
A local business produces crickets for food. They are fed food waste from other stores.
They are killed humanely, on first blush more humanely than are cattle etc.
I would consume perhaps 15,000 crickets per year.
It is not known whether crickets are subjects of a life or whether they are sentient in a way that commands a moral duty.
On some estimates, to eat a similar quantity of protein from say chickpeas, perhaps substantially more insects are killed. There is a good case for claiming as many as 10 to 100 times as many. We do not know, but the evidence is in favour of higher numbers.
I am concerned with possible choices right now, not in some hypothetical future.
Veganism is concerned with doing least harm.

Why would this not be consistent with veganism?
NO
You described it as cricket powder, did you really rescue crickets destined for combine deaths to pulverize? Or did you buy it?

Taking sentience out of the question (which we already know Graeme does), or pain, veganism is about ethics.
Killing is never ethical no matter who it is
 
NO
You described it as cricket powder, did you really rescue crickets destined for combine deaths to pulverize? Or did you buy it?

Taking sentience out of the question (which we already know Graeme does), or pain, veganism is about ethics.
Killing is never ethical no matter who it is

OK, but the question IS an ethical one. Faced with two choices should I choose the one that causes least harm. That is what it boils down to. You are suggesting no, I shouldn't. I should choose the one that doesn't involve me eating an animal. Regardless of the cost in animal lives.
 
regardless of the myth-busting of protein or not I do need protein as do you

Ever wonder how a horse or a cow gets enough protein just eating hay or grass?

While it's true our bodies require protein, what we don't need, is to worry about it. Even if you ate potatoes, exclusively, you would only just fall slightly short of your protein requirements. You don't need to supplement with protein powder...or bugs. Try broccoli - I guarantee will taste better than cricket powder and will provide you a solid and reliable protein source.



A little more in-depth look at Dr. Milton Mills insightful video all about protein.


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I made some plant-based rissoles the other day and added 20g of cricket powder to the recipe for added protein, B12, zinc and magnesium. That 20g probably represents about 40 crickets. A vegan said to me, but that's not vegan. I asked why not and the answer was, because an insect is an animal.

But, I countered, we don't know that insects are sentient, or at least, that the sentience they may have is complex enough to make it worth us worrying about.

My interlocutor argued that we ought not make assumptions about other animals. After all, she argued, we might best apply the precautionary principle in this regard. In any case, veganism doesn't need to go to into that sort of detail, the fact is that vegans do not eat other animals.

This struck me as a little odd. After all, growing crops requires the deaths of many insects so why would eating insects be a worse act? Sure, this is a topic done to death and I believe the problem is routinely claimed to represent an unavoidable harm. We cannot be perfect. But I wondered what one should do if it became clear that eating some crickets in one's diet would likely result in fewer insects harmed and killed.

What do you think?

Crickets are not vegan, I think most vegans would agree.

I think your friend is wise. We should give the crickets the benefit of the doubt.

There´s no reason to believe that farming plants kills more insects than farming crickets. Why would this be the case. Growing the plants also may even help the ecosystem for all we know, while farming crickets may somehow involve the death of other insects.

So instead of focusing on a hypothetical focus on what we do know.

I think IF if becomes clear that eating crickets would likely result in fewer insects harmed then you have a tricky dilemna where you have to ask yourself whether a smaller amount of certain direct harm is worse more than a larger amount of indirect harm. Or you can frame it as one of those deontology vs utilitarian/consequentialist debates. Either way it seems subjective and almost unsolvable. But don´t focus on the hypothetical. You say IF it becomes clear but is not clear at the moment. So it´s not relevant to whether you decide to buy crickets again.

However good for you for being vegan and being so conscientious to decide about these things.
 
While it's true our bodies require protein, what we don't need, is to worry about it.
You have completely missed the point. Maybe reread what I wrote and consider the actual question. Hint: it is NOT about protein.

I notice a few comments above about intent. I am not sure how others interpret intention. In the case of my choices, intention is important - if I know X to be bad and I accidentally do X without meaning to, then I agree my lack of intent was a mitigating factor. However, X still happened and X is bad. The real question is, if I keep causing X to happen and I later learn that I could have not Xed by making a different choice, then intention becomes a factor.

Here though, people are making a different claim. They are saying that the farmers didn't intend to kill the bugs so we cannot be responsible for these accidental harms. My argument is that in this case, the bugs are dead whether the farmer intended to do so or not. When you buy that food, your purchase has enabled the farmer to continue doing what he does. It is your intent that counts here, not the farmer's. The farmer's intention doesnt matter to the bugs.

If you learn that very many more bugs die to produce chickpeas than to produce cricket powder, I think the ethical choice is to choose to eat the crickets. I do not see how that could be inconsistent with veganism. You might instead say, well, I can't be bothered learning about how my food is produced, my sentimental feeling is that eating crickets is bad even if my chickpeas cause more insects to die. But I suggest that is not vegan ethics in action. It's just you doing what feels right to you. And we know that vegans don't agree with that because they say that people shouldn't eat steak or bacon just because it feels good and right.

I believe making ethical choices means learning what your choices mean. I don't know whether eating crickets is better than eating chickpeas. On evidence to hand, I think it is. From what I understand of veganism, if that were indeed the case, you would be acting consistently with veganism if you chose the crickets. I think you would have a stronger claim to being consistent with veganism than you would if you chose the chickpeas.

I am asking why that would be a poor interpretation.
 
You have completely missed the point.
Watch Earthling Ed's video which I posted. It is right on point. Then come back with your argument. I'd be interested to hear your counter argument.

I'll add another one of Ed's videos, since this is also on point.


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For anyone that wants some light relief on this thread....

Oops I spelled the word dilemma with a "n" - in post 27. Did anyone notice? I always thought it was spelled dilemna for my entire life until last year when the film "Social Dilemma" was released. I actually was so sure it was spelled dilemna that I actually thought the movie had got it wrong for a minute. I had even managed to read the entire book The Omnivore's Dilemma by Michael Pollan a few years ago without noticing the correct spelling.

It turns out there are thousands of people like me; many will insist that they were taught dilemna with an n in school. Some people have literally decided they must be from a parallel universe where that is the only thing different rather than accept that they have just been getting it wrong.

 
You say IF it becomes clear but is not clear at the moment. So it´s not relevant to whether you decide to buy crickets again.
Well, I haven't seen any definitive claims about numbers. I *have* read quite a few discussions and research papers about the topic, and high numbers would seem to be the more likely. I tend to think that we could have high confidence that it is likely more would be killed, proportionally speaking, to eat chickpeas than crickets. The question though isn't meant to dissuade people from eating chickpeas in favour of crickets. It is more about whether one is best to undertake an analysis of options or simply adhere to the ideology.

Watch Earthling Ed's video which I posted. It is right on point. Then come back with your argument. I'd be interested to hear your counter argument.

Thank you, I will watch it and report back. I have Ed's latest book and I felt it was a bit sketchy in this regard though.

If it wasn't about protein, then why eat cricket powder at all? Obviously, you want the protein source or you wouldn't have added it to your rissoles, or am I wrong?
Well, protein and some other nutrients such as B12. I am not convinced that plants alone easily supply all nutrients, for reasons far too long and involved to go into here. Crickets are excellent sources of protein, B12, iron, potassium, zinc and magnesium. I have been considering options for improving availability of some nutrients without supplementation. I am reasonably confident that it is probably no better or worse to kill insects directly for food as to kill them indirectly for food. And of course, I am not much bothered by appeals to insect sentience.
 
On the matter of numbers, Fischer & Lamey observed in their 2018 paper that:

"It’s very difficult to estimate the number of insects present in agricultural contexts, but it’s obviously an enormous quantity: a conservative estimate is well over 250 million insects per hectare, and some judge that it’s over a billion per hectare (see Sabrosky 1952 and Pearse 1946, respectively). Even if we stick with the lower number, make the supposition that only 1/100 of those insects are candidates for sentience, make the further supposition that the odds of the candidates actually being sentient are only 1/10, and finally assume that pesticides only manage to kill 1/10 of the candidates for sentience, we’re now talking about an additional 20,000 deaths per hectare. When we recall that the 7.3 billion number was generated with a 100 deaths per hectare estimate, it becomes obvious that the moral significance of insect sentience is difficult to overstate."

Note that they are only estimating genuinely sentient cases on the basis that sentience is our key moral motivation. If however we wish to take a more precautionary approach and consider all insects within our scope (which is what vegans typically claim), you will see that their estimate of insect deaths per hectare in agricultural contexts is about 1/10th of insects present. If there really are 250 million per hectare over the course of a year and we kill 1/10th, that is 25 million insect deaths. My share of those deaths for enough chickpeas to replace crickets in my food for a year (in my example case, not necessarily in real life because I may not choose to keep eating cricket powder) would be 375,000 deaths. This is significantly more than the 15,000 crickets killed directly.

Put more simply, if these numbers are about right, I will cause the deaths of around 25 times more animals if I eat chickpeas rather than crickets. You'll observe this argument extends to many other kinds of animals and food systems, which is why I do not think it important to worry about insects, even though in my day to day activities I do my best to avoid harming insects.

I'd assumed omeone else has thought this through and made sound counter-arguments. I just haven't found any yet.
 
Interesting video from Earthling Ed and of course topical. It's a very good analysis and a pretty comprehensive treatment. I think several of his arguments can be addressed though. Here is my take on those.

1. The matter of insects as a food source is not really about replacing all food with insects, so it hardly constitutes the "future of food". We might more reasonably say insects could be part of the future of food. That makes the question more open because we aren't having to critique the idea we are suddenly going to be farming vast numbers of insects.

2. I am not sure I agree that feeding insects some kind of grain-based feed or whatever is directly affecting human food supply. I don't think it is true that we can get the same value from the feedstock because that food may not be human edible. Consider soy. We mostly grow that for oil. Absent animal feed as a market and we would still need vegetable oil. It doesn't seem unreasonable to repurpose soy meal as a feedstock for insects. However, right now - which is what we are talking about - many insect producers do use waste foods.

3. Ed claims that recent research tells us that soy is more suitable as a food for people than mealworms on a land area basis. I'd need to read the research to see why, as Ed just finished telling us that insects are low footprint. Presumably, this is based on the idea that growing grain as a feedstock requires some area of land. If so, then of course we would find that outcome as barley and maize are not as protein dense as soy, so we would need more land to produce enough feed for the insects. However, as I pointed out above, we could simply repurpose foods already grown for human uses to provide feedstock as well. I would need to know just what parts of a crop are useful as a feedstock, but I think this claim is somewhat thin. It also rests on the idea that we are critiquing very large scale commercial farming of insects and tells us nothing about how effective growing insects on human food waste might be (which is, after all, one viable option).

4. In the same vein, claiming that growing insects must as a matter of course lead to large scale CAFO systems is a hypothetical. Yes, that *could* happen, but it doesn't invalidate the underlying concept.

5. Ed's claims about sentience are somewhat over-egged in my opinion. First we have no idea what kind of internal experience they have. In theory, a nervous sysytem can function without experience - experience/feelings (qualia) may really be little more than information of a certain kind about the world and not all animals may need that information. As well, research suggests some insects, such as locusts and grasshoppers, lack true pain responses, so it seems reasonable to conclude that crickets also may not.

6. Ed claims that as insects may have subjective mental states, they have moral value. Fair enough. But it doesn't follow that we have to afford them the same moral value as cows, for example. That's Ed's take on it - others might disagree. We don't have to behave as Ed would prefer. Consider that insects are r-strategists, cows are K-strategists.

7. My main criticism of Ed's argument though is what we have already talked about. Numbers. Ed takes a stab at calculating how many insects would be needed to replace cows in our diet. Fair enough, but he should also take a stab at calculating the insect toll for growing the required plants to replace cows in our diet. After all, he is the one claiming all insects have moral value.

Ed tells us that we would need to kill 363,000 crickets to obtain the same calories as one cow, and that as we slaughter 324 million cows each year we would need to kill 120 trillion crickets. I will take his word for it on those numbers, however here is a calculation to tell us how many insects might be killed to replace those cows. If it is notably more than 120 trillion, we have a dilemna.

By the way, I think we should use protein as the relevant basis given that calories are different for different plants. We may need a lot more tomatoes than soybeans to get the same calories, and that affects land area needed. Also, taking meat out of the equation probably means we should replace it with a protein dense alternative such as beans, chickpeas, lentils and so on.

A good average return on a slaughtered cow is about 250kg of meat. 324 million cows slaughtered therefore returns about 80 billion kilograms of meat. That is about 20 billion kg of protein. When converting protein into crop yield requirements, we should multiply by about six to allow for lowered protein content and lower bioavailablity. This means we need about 120 billion kg of chickpeas or similar.

Now, chickpeas and similar crops yield on average about 1800kg/hectare as actual food. That means we need about 67 million hectares to grow that much chickpeas.

We now have a number into which we can plug possible insect deaths per hectare. We are going to count all insects as Ed's concern is all insects. Looking at earlier estimates listed above, we find deaths per hectare may be as high as 25 million. Let's discount that to 10 million to allow some room for error. Of course, it may be far less, it may be far more.

But IF it is 10 million or more, we may be killing as many as 670 trillion insects.

So. Ed worries that replacing cows with crickets could cause up to 120 trillion insect deaths and so we should eat plants instead. Yet, it may be the case that doing so will cause up to 700 trillion insect deaths, perhaps more. It could reasonably stretch to one quadrillion deaths.

I think he should have done this calculation. Yes, of course this is a completely wild guess with only some basis in fact and there probably are variables I have overlooked. But it tells us that we do need to consider how many insects are really killed to grow plant foods, IF we are to care about insects.

Me, I don't, at least not that much. Nor about oysters and mussels etc for much the same reasons. That said, I think working out what is the best tack for a vegan to take has more dimensions than simply counting numbers. You must too if you think that eating plants is less harmful than eating crickets or cows.
 
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Its hard to prove which kills less insects, but I think eating plants kills less insects. It's not that the insects that die due to farming don't matter, but what can you do? I see this argument all the time when people don't want to go vegan.

It's almost like you are confused. If you don't believe in veganism then no one's forcing you to be vegan. But you can't eat crickets and call yourself vegan. I guess you could but you'd be wrong.
Vegans are vegetarian by default. No meat not even bugs.
 
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The OP has done nothing to indicate that eating insects would reduce the number of insects deaths from farming.
What about all the other ways insects are unintentionally killed? Wouldn't a movement to rid lawns of grass be more reasonable? Or outlaw graveyards and make cremation or other non burial ways? How about golf courses? Sports stadiums?
 
Its hard to prove which kills less insects, but I think eating plants kills less insects. It's not that the insects that die due to farming don't matter, but what can you do? I see this argument all the time when people don't want to go vegan.

It's almost like you are confused. If you don't believe in veganism then no one's forcing you to be vegan. But you can't eat crickets and call yourself vegan. I guess you could but you'd be wrong.
Vegans are vegetarian by default. No meat not even bugs.
I am not a vegan. I said that a little earlier. I endorse vegan ethics, but without getting into it I do not believe in "veganism". I think our ethical choices deserve appropriate scrutiny rather than following ideology blindly and I find this is where veganism falls down. But that's just me. Choosing never to eat meat without examining the broader picture seems inadequate - we do not do that for any other ethical dimension of our lives.

The OP has done nothing to indicate that eating insects would reduce the number of insects deaths from farming.
I don't think I was making that case? I was asking about a single person's choices right now in the example I provided - if they wish to make the best ethical choice as guided by veganism. If people don't want to think about the problem of insects in crop farming that's fine, but if someone does then there seems to be a strong argument they might do better than only eating plants. I think that is within the intent of veganism but clearly many do not.

One thing that does stand out is that people are clearly giving more weight to the life of a cow than an insect. If they didn't they'd all eat cows rather than plants. That is fair enough, I'd agree. I guess this is covered by the idea of weighting nterests equally rather than lives per se. Does anyone know where I could find a summary of the argument for weighting the value of animal lives in this sense?
 
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