Is veganism really gaining ground?

[silva]

Im just someone that thinks outside the box, and gets hated on for it, even though I have good intentions and BETTER IDEAS THAT WILL RESULT IN MORE ANIMALS BEING SAVED THAN WITH THE WAY ITS CURRENTLY BEING DONE

As arrogant as that sounds I think its true , our tactics are lousy to only be getting 1% , I think its not hard to improve on what we do, because what we do is so ineffective

...except you don't show any promise of "thinking outside the box"
You're rude, incorrect, and haven't shown any kind of logic in your presumptions.

Again why do you continue to use "we" and "our"?

 

[Mork]

Why do you keep using the terms "we" and "our"?

Meat and dairy are monetized, they're subsidized. There is literally a science of addiction that brought people to eat the SAD.
There are now vegan products infiltrating the market, but they're also competing with the WFPB diets, and neither have the money or marketing that animal products do with the branded name, and government support
The American healthcare system is largely funded by big ag--you know, food and drugs

...except you don't show any promise of "thinking outside the box"
You're rude, incorrect, and haven't shown any kind of logic in your presumptions.

Again why do you continue to use "we" and "our"?

Well I want to save animal lives/prevent their suffering and so do you

 

[silva]

Well I want to save animal lives/prevent their suffering and so do you

Perhaps "we" want to save animal lives...but the presumptions in which you use those generalities don't jive with all vegans

 

[Lou]

Im just someone that thinks outside the box, and gets hated on for it, even though I have good intentions and BETTER IDEAS THAT WILL RESULT IN MORE ANIMALS BEING SAVED THAN WITH THE WAY ITS CURRENTLY BEING DONE

As arrogant as that sounds I think its true , our tactics are lousy to only be getting 1% , I think its not hard to improve on what we do, because what we do is so ineffective

According to The Vegan Society's larger survey, the number of vegans quadrupled from 2014–18; in 2018 there were approximately 600,000 vegans in the UK, equivalent to 1.16% of the British population as a whole.
- Wikipedia.

That doesn't sound ineffective to me.

 

[Mork]

According to The Vegan Society's larger survey, the number of vegans quadrupled from 2014–18; in 2018 there were approximately 600,000 vegans in the UK, equivalent to 1.16% of the British population as a whole.
- Wikipedia.

That doesn't sound ineffective to me.

It does to me its still 1 % o the population, they sound like big numbers and big gains but its 1 % , is scoring 1% on an exam good or effective? I know this is harder but its terrible, its the worst % stat ive ever heard in my life

 

[Jamie in Chile]

This is a thread about how veganism is not gaining ground. And then when a 21-year old, perhaps newish vegetarian that struggles with the diet comes on to the forum you all attack them! That partly answers the original post! Don't you see it? Because veganism is, to some extent, sometimes, in some circles, cliquey and inistent on strict moral standards, it loses the ability to bring in a wider group of people.

Sure it's not very nice to say the diet is "disgusting" but that could perhaps just be transitional frustration. Don't send someone coming to a vegan forum packing with comments like "go and do some research"! Help them out. Engage. Offer recipes. OK yes, not all the arguments are perfect, so what, neither were mine, neither were yours when you were 21, when some of us weren't even vegetarian.

Stop responding to the arguments in the way that seems fair to you, and start thinking "what is the best response to this in terms of promoting veganism and leading to less animal suffering". Think of the animals when you respond.

What we have here is a thread where one new person is ganged up by three old timers. Do you really think prospective vegans viewing this thread, that don't yet share your ethics, will be encouraged to join.

So far, the second half of this thread is making it more likely that this person eats meat, in my view.

 

[Jamie in Chile]

Mork, I would like to help you but to be honest, you can't come on to a vegan forum and say that vegans lie and the food is disgusting and be argumentative. The point of the forum is a place for vegans to get together and discuss and feel comfortable, free from such comments that we already get all the time, so such comments are not exactly what the forum is for!

I can honestly tell you that I don't find giving up meat to be any sacrifice whatsoever. But different people are different. Tell me more about how you are struggling. Have you tried the Beyond Burger? It tastes just like meat to me.

 

[silva]

This is a thread about how veganism is not gaining ground. And then when a 21-year old, perhaps newish vegetarian that struggles with the diet comes on to the forum you all attack them! That partly answers the original post! Don't you see it? Because veganism is, to some extent, sometimes, in some circles, cliquey and inistent on strict moral standards, it loses the ability to bring in a wider group of people.

Sure it's not very nice to say the diet is "disgusting" but that could perhaps just be transitional frustration. Don't send someone coming to a vegan forum packing with comments like "go and do some research"! Help them out. Engage. Offer recipes. OK yes, not all the arguments are perfect, so what, neither were mine, neither were yours when you were 21, when some of us weren't even vegetarian.

Stop responding to the arguments in the way that seems fair to you, and start thinking "what is the best response to this in terms of promoting veganism and leading to less animal suffering". Think of the animals when you respond.

What we have here is a thread where one new person is ganged up by three old timers. Do you really think prospective vegans viewing this thread, that don't yet share your ethics, will be encouraged to join.

So far, the second half of this thread is making it more likely that this person eats meat, in my view.

I came here the other day after a very stressful work day and a couple drinks of gin. I immediately recognized what I saw, as a pattern of animal farming apologetics. I could quite possibly be wrong, and if so, apologize.

@Mork, if you are sincere in your quest to advocate veganism I do apologize. I would however appreciate you stop associating your opinions with all vegans, as you do when you use the pronouns "we" and "our".
I'm no activist, but I do get people to reduce their meat intake, and they like to tell me the new things they cooked and eaten per my recommendations.
There's so much honesty in advocating a plant based diet- in health, in environmental causes, in ease of cooking and most definitely in cleanliness
There is also such division between what is now becoming popular in documentaries like What the Health, a whole food plant based diet --which can have nothing to do with being vegan other than it also shuns animal products, but is all about personal health. Nothing wrong in that, but I've found more hatred towards vegans in that movement than I have from omnivores

 

[Mork]

This is a thread about how veganism is not gaining ground. And then when a 21-year old, perhaps newish vegetarian that struggles with the diet comes on to the forum you all attack them! That partly answers the original post! Don't you see it? Because veganism is, to some extent, sometimes, in some circles, cliquey and inistent on strict moral standards, it loses the ability to bring in a wider group of people.

Sure it's not very nice to say the diet is "disgusting" but that could perhaps just be transitional frustration. Don't send someone coming to a vegan forum packing with comments like "go and do some research"! Help them out. Engage. Offer recipes. OK yes, not all the arguments are perfect, so what, neither were mine, neither were yours when you were 21, when some of us weren't even vegetarian.

Stop responding to the arguments in the way that seems fair to you, and start thinking "what is the best response to this in terms of promoting veganism and leading to less animal suffering". Think of the animals when you respond.

What we have here is a thread where one new person is ganged up by three old timers. Do you really think prospective vegans viewing this thread, that don't yet share your ethics, will be encouraged to join.

So far, the second half of this thread is making it more likely that this person eats meat, in my view.

Brains and a heart, thats what the animals need! This is what saves animals! (if thats what you want?)

 

[Jamie in Chile]

It's my belief that at least some of the writers and producers of What the Health are ethical vegans trying the health angle as a means to promote veganism. That's the gut feeling I got from a watch of this movie plus their other movie Cowspiracy. I'm not sure if they are on record that could prove this one way or the other.

 

[Jamie in Chile]

Mork, if you're reading this, this is not about you specifically, I want to make a more general point.

You get people come on veg forums and start causing arguments and it's like...are they trolling? or are they really just in need of a little engagement from other vegans to become fully committed to veganism? And where do you draw that line between letting someone discuss veganism in the hope that they transition vs letting people, even meat eaters, come on and stoke divisions and argument to protect the peace of the forum and keep it a happy place. I myself started out coming out to vegan forums with some pro-meat arguments just to see how vegans would respond.

I have a couple of thoughts.

1. Instead of letting people argue and then finally shutting threads down when it gets out of hand, would it make more sense to immediately block a person the second they say vegans are liars or vegan food is disgusting or whatever. But then send them a short message, very polite, explaining that this is a vegan forum for vegans and you need to respect the rules and we'll unlock your account as soon as you read these rules and just confirm you're happy to respect them and make an effort to be polite so we don't lose members? I'm not sure if this is a good idea or not? One issue I can see with it is that it either requires posts to be pre-moderated for a period of time from newbies, rather than instantly appear, or it requires someone to be constantly moderating the forum. (I am not volunteering!) So not sure if it's practical.

2 When I was considering and transitioning, I struggled to find a forum to debate. Either veg forums or nothing else. So if you are genuinely in a meat eater vs vegan phase where you are really open to change, where do you debate? In some ways this forum isn't the right one for that kind of debate, but then where is? Is there another forum we could send people to, perhaps one which some of us even participate in, for meat eater vs vegan debate? And tell people to go there and if and when they are firmly in the vegan camp to then come back to here. Does that make sense? Is that a good idea? And then what would that other forum be, or does someone need to create one?

One vegan forum I know says "Meat eater vs. Vegan debate welcome ". Should we send people there? Of course, if we do, they may just stay there instead of here if and when they become committed to veganism. So I doubt I would do that unless the moderators have encouranged it.

 

[Mork]

Mork, if you're reading this, this is not about you specifically, I want to make a more general point.

You get people come on veg forums and start causing arguments and it's like...are they trolling? or are they really just in need of a little engagement from other vegans to become fully committed to veganism? And where do you draw that line between letting someone discuss veganism in the hope that they transition vs letting people, even meat eaters, come on and stoke divisions and argument to protect the peace of the forum and keep it a happy place. I myself started out coming out to vegan forums with some pro-meat arguments just to see how vegans would respond.

I have a couple of thoughts.

1. Instead of letting people argue and then finally shutting threads down when it gets out of hand, would it make more sense to immediately block a person the second they say vegans are liars or vegan food is disgusting or whatever. But then send them a short message, very polite, explaining that this is a vegan forum for vegans and you need to respect the rules and we'll unlock your account as soon as you read these rules and just confirm you're happy to respect them and make an effort to be polite so we don't lose members? I'm not sure if this is a good idea or not? One issue I can see with it is that it either requires posts to be pre-moderated for a period of time from newbies, rather than instantly appear, or it requires someone to be constantly moderating the forum. (I am not volunteering!) So not sure if it's practical.

2 When I was considering and transitioning, I struggled to find a forum to debate. Either veg forums or nothing else. So if you are genuinely in a meat eater vs vegan phase where you are really open to change, where do you debate? In some ways this forum isn't the right one for that kind of debate, but then where is? Is there another forum we could send people to, perhaps one which some of us even participate in, for meat eater vs vegan debate? And tell people to go there and if and when they are firmly in the vegan camp to then come back to here. Does that make sense? Is that a good idea? And then what would that other forum be, or does someone need to create one?

One vegan forum I know says "Meat eater vs. Vegan debate welcome ". Should we send people there? Of course, if we do, they may just stay there instead of here if and when they become committed to veganism. So I doubt I would do that unless the moderators have encouranged it.

Its a good thing youre not a mod then, people want to carry on with the 1% way of promoting veganism, proven to not work, and desperately stupid to the point where the average man on the street can formulate a better strategy, we are going to have to be less emotional more ruthless and higher brained if we want to save animal lives, or get above 1%

 

[Jamie in Chile]

If the fact that something has been tried for a long time without success is the proof that it doesn't work, then, at a certain point in history, the campaign to get women the vote, to end apartheid in Africa, to get basic civil rights for people of colour, might have been judged a failure. Certainly the campaign to end human slavery would have been judged a failure at some point. History has shown clearly that you can't prove something doesn't work based on the fact that it hasn't in the past. It may be that you are right, that the current strategy is wrong, or it may be that it needs more time. We can't say.

When Nelson Mandela went to jail, and the movement stagnated for years, that didn't prove anything about a failing strategy. Later he became the leader of South Africa.

I notice when you mentioned your diet is disgusting and someone offered to help, you ignored that. When I asked you if you had tried the Beyond Burger, you didn't answer. Attempts at constructive debate are being ignored, and you are just returning to insults like "desparately stupid". If you carry on this way the moderators are just going to lock this thread and/or ban you. Please debate in a more polite fashion if you genuinely aren't trolling and are genuinely interested in a strategic discussion about the best way to promote veganism. I've been trying to give you the benefit of the doubt unlike others but maybe I was being naive.

It may just be that this isn't the right forum for you. This forum is a happy place for vegans to share recipes and so on. Robust intellectual debate here needs to be polite especially if it drifts too close to challenging the core ideology of veganism - that's a fine line that I myself have walked on at times.

 

[silva]

The majority of health problems, at least speaking of Americans now, are largely preventable, and reversible, through diet. Doesn't even have to be a complete plant based diet, just reducing meat and dairy, processed food, sugar, oil and salt. People can't even get on board with eating healthy for their sake

@Mork you have much criticism here, and have continued to state YOUR distaste for vegan diets. Many, if not most, find the most helpful route to converting people is through normalizing foods made without animals. Not processed foods, which should only be eaten in moderation anyway, but everyday cuisine.. People DO like plant based meals, they're just not in their radar. As I've already stated, many omnivores have crucial in getting people to rind vegan cuisines, simply because it is tasty, is healthy, economical and affordable. And environmentlly freindly.
I find it unimaginable to stay vegan if I didn't like the foods I eat. That's why I struggle eating wfpb, and am overweight!

If you're sincere here- please answer what you find distasteful, and what foods you DO enjoy

 

[Lou]

If the fact that something has been tried for a long time without success is the proof that it doesn't work, then, at a certain point in history, the campaign to get women the vote, to end apartheid in Africa, to get basic civil rights for people of colour, might have been judged a failure. Certainly the campaign to end human slavery would have been judged a failure at some point. History has shown clearly that you can't prove something doesn't work based on the fact that it hasn't in the past. It may be that you are right, that the current strategy is wrong, or it may be that it needs more time. We can't say.

First off (and off-topic) I want to get this off my chest. I enjoy a good philosophical discussion. Or even a debate. but I seem to get baited into arguments a little too often - I have to be more careful.

Jaime you bring up some good points that have been on my mind for a while now. (probably since the first time you brought them up )

Social movements, like civil rights, women's rights, and animal rights have a lot in common. It's hard to pinpoint a beginning. and even harder to measure progress. but if you could somehow chart or plot a timeline, would the average speeds of these movements follow your basic Normal Curve. They would start off slow, start gathering speed, accelerate at an accelerating rate, level off and then start going downhill. The downhill part would be right after some great accomplishment.

My assumption that social movements can fit into a normal curve seems like common sense. But measuring it and then proving it seems impossible.

Also if you go one step further and start thinking of social movements as sine waves you could then maybe think that the abolition of slavery could be the peak of one wave and the Civil Rights Act could be the peak of another one. The 19th amendment and the ERA might be other peaks? or the founding of the ASPCA and the animal testing bans be another?

Anyway despite my fuzzy thinking, I wonder where the Animal Rights movement (or veganism) is on the curve. I certainly can't prove it but I think we might be at the place where the rate of progress starts accelerating.

 

[beancounter]

Anyway despite my fuzzy thinking, I wonder where the Animal Rights movement (or veganism) is on the curve. I certainly can't prove it but I think we might be at the place where the rate of progress starts accelerating.

IMHO, groups like PETA are part of the reason why veganism hasn't increased much.

 

[Lou]

IMHO, groups like PETA are part of the reason why veganism hasn't increased much.

I strongly disagree. PETA is at least partially responsible for me being vegan in the first place.
They have a list of their accomplishments. You can disagree with their tactics but I don't think you can disregard theirs accomplishes.
Before I discovered the VF, if I had a question or problem about the vegan diet I went to PETA first. They are still one of the best resources for info.

PETA's Milestones | PETA

Since its inception in 1980, PETA has continually won groundbreaking victories in behalf of animals. Here's a look at some of PETA's milestones.

www.peta.org

 

[Sax]

I strongly disagree. PETA is at least partially responsible for me being vegan in the first place.

Same.

 

[silva]

PETA is two faced.They do some of the worst advertising, they do some of the best.
When they focus on realities, on just facts, they can be the best, but the other side that lashes out with unrestrained emotion, misogyny, and over the top dramatizations---that part needs to go.
It was a peta display in DC that sealed it for me. It wasn't like I didn't know the horrors, I'd been vegetarian leaning vegan on/off for many years. But this time I stood before the signs featuring chickens, and clearly presented facts, and I cried. That was the end of me ever eating meat.

Everyone is different in what they respond to, but the facts really speak for themselves. Naked women laying around with fake blood doesn't have a very serious vibe

 

[MoreGreens]

I strongly disagree. PETA is at least partially responsible for me being vegan in the first place.
They have a list of their accomplishments. You can disagree with their tactics but I don't think you can disregard theirs accomplishes.
Before I discovered the VF, if I had a question or problem about the vegan diet I went to PETA first. They are still one of the best resources for info.

PETA's Milestones | PETA

Since its inception in 1980, PETA has continually won groundbreaking victories in behalf of animals. Here's a look at some of PETA's milestones.

www.peta.org

When I look back on my first foray into veganism, I can't deny PETA's influence and education. In the early '00s, PETA and Farm Sanctuary were about the best places for online info in the US.

Today, there are countless blogs, sites and stores where there used to be a handful of online options, and that tells me that veganism is growing. Veganuary blasted headlines everywhere when they managed to sign up a record 400,000 people this last January. That shouldn't be forgotten in the Netflix documentary wars or the promotions of meat replacement options at fast food restaurants.

Once upon a time, who among us thought there would be vegan butchers? Who expected multiple plant-milks and all their derivatives to be not only produced commercially but also to be stocked at major groceries as well as random coffee shops/cafes? I remember when a Tofutti Cutie was a freakin' gift from on high, but I had to drive almost 20 miles to buy a box!

More importantly, how many more leaping bunny products are available? They used to be so hard to find, yet we see more and more personal care products created and labeled harm free. Has anyone seen the recent lists of fashion brands that no longer use fur? There are big names, couture houses, who don't have to conform, but they chose compassion.

Veganism may not be growing as quickly or as absolutely as many may want, but there's no doubt that the message is being spread and people are making small as well as large changes to their lives. I'm grateful for every innovation and effort.