Liberal/Conservative Divide

[GinnyB]

We are vegan AND conservatives. Went vegan mainly for health reasons; my husband was diagnosed with Chronic Kidney Disease over a year ago. Plant protein is much easier on the kidneys than animal proteins. His lab numbers have greatly improved and he feels much, much better. I, as chief cook of the house, am very happy not to deal with animal blood, bone, fat, and sinew.

Yes, we do love animals. We feed and otherwise take care of numerous stray cats in the woods behind our house. Have, at our own expense, had three of them neutered and one needed extensive surgery ($$$$) on a broken leg.

So, please don't compare all conservatives to Nazis or other supremacy groups. It's just not true. Also, since most veganslove animals, I am bewildered by the nearly rabid support some vegans display for abortion, especially late-term abortion. Babies are people, too!!

And, I am not trying to start a fight here over abortion. Just stating my thoughts. Not trying to convince anybody of anything.

 

[Urban Gardener]

I didn't mean to compare Nazis to most conservatives. They were obviously a mix of authoritarian far-right and socialist, not representative of mainstream conservativism today. (Our current administration excluded - that's not mainstream conservativism.)

 

[Urban Gardener]

Oh no. I've derailed a productive conversation into an internet discussion of Nazis.

I was just trying to point out that the politics of meat-free living can be viewed from different angles.

It is interesting to note that racist veg'ers are a thing. Obviously, racism can go with any political viewpoint. But there are, in modern times, people who are for animal rights and against human rights.

That and the Hitler thing can be used, by some, to cast the vegan movement in a negative light. Just something to keep in mind.

I see some racist stuff here on this forum sometimes. We should try not to be that way.

 

[Gaspard]

Weird that the left isn't even considered in the thread.
Liberals and conservatives are both right wing parties.
And in France, at the parlement, they both vote for more animal killing. The left and the environmentalists vote in favour of the animals.
I'm a vegan and an environmentalist first. So I go with the parties that are not planning total ecological destruction and animal mass torture. At the moment the liberals, as a matter of fact, are just as bad as the far right.
Just look at who vote for animal rights in congress. If your prioritiy is veganism, you should follow them. Ortherwise you are not a vegan first. You put you political beleifs before veganism ; it's OK, but I'm very likely to scorn you.

 

[Urban Gardener]

Liberals and conservatives are both right wing parties.

In the U.S., "liberal" is just a broad term referring to all left wing political viewpoints.

I know that some countries have a Liberal party, which is politically conservative.

We should try to make it clear which we're referring to since this is an international forum.

 

[fakei]

In Europe liberal can stand for. someone who believes in classical liberalism, and it is usually a milder version of what Americans call libertarianism.

 

[Gaspard]

In the U.S., "liberal" is just a broad term referring to all left wing political viewpoints.

No. Joe Biden is right wing and he is a liberal. Obama is right wing too. In France we would say they are in the center, and the center is right wing. You don't even know what being left wing means. I'd say Sanders is left wing.

 

[Gaspard]

I started a thread with a poll to see who puts veganism first:

Do you put veganism first ?

Some right-wingers say intersectional vegans never prioritize animal activism. But is it true? Do most vegan conservatives really put veganism first ? What about you? Important: please vote in the poll before participating in the discussion.

www.veganforum.org

 

[Pythagoras]

The whole nazi thing comes from that Hitler towards the end was a vegetarian. But BFD he was also a Christian.

And we can assume that he was vegetarian for personal health reasons.

Hitler hated Christianity and persecuted Christians.

You Mean Hitler Wasn’t A Priest? | WWRN - World-wide Religious News

wwrn.org

 

[silva]

Do you people argueing about Hitler actually believe he was mentally stable? Cause I don't, and I don't put any credence on the views of those I find mentally unstable.
Seems his views on religion were in a constant state of change, so.....what?

 

[Urban Gardener]

No. Joe Biden is right wing and he is a liberal. Obama is right wing too. In France we would say they are in the center, and the center is right wing. You don't even know what being left wing means. I'd say Sanders is left wing.

Wow, there's no need to insult me.

I live in a different country and "left wing" has a different meaning here.

 

[Gaspard]

Wow, there's no need to insult me.

I live in a different country and "left wing" has a different meaning here.

I didn't insult you. America so so right wing, you don't know what left wing means. Nothing insulting about that. You live in the only developped contry where there is no universal health care. Man, children were imprisonned in your country. You cannot be more right wing. The political spectrum has moved so much on the right end that you think Biden is left wing. Well, he is not. Compared to Trump yes he is. But there is nothing about left wing politics that comes out of his mouth.
Just a reminder. Bush, Regan and most republicans used to condamn racism, and gave support to latinos and black comunities. It doesn't make them leftists.
Is it insulting you to write: "AMERICA HAS BECOME SO RACIST YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT LEFT WING MEANS" ? No I don't think so.

 

[Urban Gardener]

I didn't insult you. America so so right wing, you don't know what left wing means. Nothing insulting about that. You live in the only developped contry where there is no universal health care. Man, children were imprisonned in your country. You cannot be more right wing. The political spectrum has moved so much on the right end that you think Biden is left wing. Well, he is not. Compared to Trump yes he is. But there is nothing about left wing politics that comes out of his mouth.
Just a reminder. Bush, Regan and most republicans used to condamn racism, and gave support to latinos and black comunities. It doesn't make them leftists.
Is it insulting you to write: "AMERICA HAS BECOME SO RACIST YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT LEFT WING MEANS" ? No I don't think so.

That would be directed at the country as a whole, not me as an individual, so it would not be insulting.

You said I don't know what left wing means just because I used a definition of it that is standard in the country I happen to live in. My use of that definition implies nothing about my politics, beliefs, or knowledge of the political environments elsewhere.

I also did not define the term. I never said that Biden is left wing. I only said that in the U.S., "liberal," is linguistically considered synomymous with, "left wing," whereas Australia, for example, has a Liberal Party, which is more conservative than their Labour Party, those being the two largest parties there. I acknowledged that the thread's title is misleading because these terms have different meanings in different locations.

 

[Gaspard]

I live in a different country and "left wing" has a different meaning here.

I don't think so.

For exemple in France Socialists are considered left wing by the traditional media because they used to be left wing. But everybody know they are now a liberal party. They were left wing in 1981 but it just lasted about one year. Now, because of this liberal/leftist gape in the party, it has exploded.

In Old Blighty, same thing. The labour party is a liberal party (which used to be similar to the French socialists), so it is right wing. Tony Blair said he supported both Sarkozy and S Royal in France. And Sarkozy is a populist. S Royal is a socialist (and actually she is very conservative and economically liberal). So the labour party in England is right wing. I lived in England at the time. Blair, just as Bush, is a war criminal.

In France about 15 years ago, we had to choose between two right wingers, a conservative and a populist (Chirac, Le Pen), and we chose the conservative. In the last election we had to choose between two right wingers, a liberal and a populist (Marcon, Le Pen), and we chose the liberal.

Sometime you have to choose between two right wingers. One is more on the right. Think about it. Trump wants to amalgamate Biden and the "radical left" or the so called socialists. But it doesn't hold truth. Biden is right wing and he is pretty conservative for a liberal. Trump is a populist and Biden is a liberal (we could argue that Biden is a conservative). Trump destroyed the meaning of the word conservative. He is not a conservative. He is a populist.

So I must insist. Sander is left wing. Biden or Clinton aren't. Obama... well, we could argue about him. But I still think he is right wing.

 

[Gaspard]

I acknowledged that the thread's title is misleading because these terms have different meanings in different locations.

Yes and no, as I explained.

 

[Gaspard]

Also keep in mind that, we consider our French and English "liberals" to be right wing. But they are more on the left than american liberals.

 

[fakei]

In this right and left wing discussion bear in mind that the terms have had different definitions since they were coined. Also political parties tend to embrace a grab all mentality. For instance you often see American libertarians who measure this issue in terms of government size considering neoconservatives to be socialists. And you see hardcore liberals considering main stream democratic candidates as neoconservatives. Even more strange, in the last elections the current US president seemed to have more sympathy from a hardcore liberal outlet than the liberal candidate. Maybe there were elements in his protectionist non interventionist paleoconservative agenda that appeal to traditional liberals?

 

[Pythagoras]

No. Joe Biden is right wing and he is a liberal. Obama is right wing too. In France we would say they are in the center, and the center is right wing. You don't even know what being left wing means. I'd say Sanders is left wing.

So If you don't love Sanders and Maduro you are right-wing??

Venezuela plunges further into hunger and poverty - Bread for the World

By Jennifer Gonzalez and Jordan Teague As the political and economic crisis deepens in Venezuela—hunger has only worsened, and families continue to flee the country. The crisis has led to shortages of food, medicine, and basic goods. The country’s currency is now essentially worthless. And the...

www.bread.org

Wouldn't that make all reasonable people right-wing?

If America is so racist and right-wing, how come we elected Obama twice? How many French Presidents have been people of color?

 

[KLS52]

I’m hearing a lot of Democrats who are liberal, by US definition, say they don’t like Biden because he isn’t liberal enough, that he is Republican in Democrat clothing. But that makes me happy because they will vote for him regardless and it’s making some Republicans turn on Trump and vote for Biden...I’d rather have four years of an imperfect Biden then four more years of Trump.
if I’m to be completely honest, Trump winning will not affect me much at all but I’m trying to look at the big picture and not just think about myself. I have family and grandchildren and I want a better world for them when I’m gone.

 

[Pythagoras]

I’m hearing a lot of Democrats who are liberal, by US definition, say they don’t like Biden because he isn’t liberal enough, that he is Republican in Democrat clothing. But that makes me happy because they will vote for him regardless and it’s making some Republicans turn on Trump and vote for Biden...I’d rather have four years of an imperfect Biden then four more years of Trump.
if I’m to be completely honest, Trump winning will not affect me much at all but I’m trying to look at the big picture and not just think about myself. I have family and grandchildren and I want a better world for them when I’m gone.

I don’t understand socialists who vote for Biden. He has been a corrupt corporate tool for decades! Are all those denunciations of the 1% just empty words to fool the gullible?

How Joe Biden helped build a financial system that’s great for Delaware banks and terrible for the rest of us

"Biden’s banking votes have stuck with him because their effects have stuck with us."

www.motherjones.com