Need help/input regarding new kitty's nasal issues
- Thread starter KLS52
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OP
OP
Ok, so here goes. I've been googling for the past 30 minutes trying to understand what it all means, but not getting very far. I'm still waiting for the doctor to call and explain it and tell me what course of action we're going to take with regard to medication.
Biopsy: the good news is, no cancer!
Some areas of the mucosa of the biopsied sections of nasal turbinate show exocytosis of neutrophils. The submucosa shows infiltration of many inflammatory cells composed of neutrophils, plasma cells, lymphocytes and scattered macrophages. Edema, vascular congestion, hemorrhage, mild fibrosis and neovascularization are also in seen in the submucosa. The inflammatory changes extend to the periphery of well differentiated reactive turbinate bone. Microscopic findings: Moderate to severe chronic active rhinitis. No evidence of malignant cells or microorganisms is seen. These lesions are very suggestive of a primary bacterial infection. An underlying allergic rhinitis with secondary bacteria is also possible.
So it sounds like it's just an infection, except for the fact that Bogart has been on antibiotics for the last two months with no real change. I guess I'll see what the doctor prescribes...he mentioned short term steriods at one point. If anyone can interpret, in laymen's terms, any of the medical jargon, feel free to jump in.
Biopsy: the good news is, no cancer!
Some areas of the mucosa of the biopsied sections of nasal turbinate show exocytosis of neutrophils. The submucosa shows infiltration of many inflammatory cells composed of neutrophils, plasma cells, lymphocytes and scattered macrophages. Edema, vascular congestion, hemorrhage, mild fibrosis and neovascularization are also in seen in the submucosa. The inflammatory changes extend to the periphery of well differentiated reactive turbinate bone. Microscopic findings: Moderate to severe chronic active rhinitis. No evidence of malignant cells or microorganisms is seen. These lesions are very suggestive of a primary bacterial infection. An underlying allergic rhinitis with secondary bacteria is also possible.
So it sounds like it's just an infection, except for the fact that Bogart has been on antibiotics for the last two months with no real change. I guess I'll see what the doctor prescribes...he mentioned short term steriods at one point. If anyone can interpret, in laymen's terms, any of the medical jargon, feel free to jump in.
OP
OP
lol...ok, cool! I guess I'm just waiting for him to feel better and to have snot stop coming out of his nose!
Swelling, bleeding, pus, some stiffening of the tissues. Likely bacterial infection and possibly allergies coexisting. They probably will give steroids and antibiotics, and maybe benadryl (or the cat equivalent.) Since the kitty was on antibiotics, they didn't get growth of bacteria to identify the type. That makes it harder to know which antibiotic will be effective. Not anything too horrible it doesn't look like!
sallyomally
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jeneticallymodified
Forum Legend
nicely described by led boots.
in idiot level jenny-speak it translates to:
"we poked him up the nose and took some samples. looking at the samples from some places up his nose holes, we can see that his white blood cells (the bits that fight infection) are actively doing their thing. it looks like a bunch of infection-fighting and repair cells are busy in there, doing their different jobs to try and kick something's butt. it's looking from the samples, like it's swollen, bloody, inflamed, and a bit scabby and scarred in there, pretty far up inside his nose.
the microscope says *drumroll* that he's got a pretty impressive runny nose, and he's had it for a while. (i have moderate to severe chronic active rhinitis, it's an awesome yet vague description for a rather unpleasant thing ). we can't see any cancer cells or actual germs though. the scabby bloody bits that are trying to patch themselves up in there, make us think that he might have an infection. he might also have kitty hay-fever (could be caused by litter dust, perfumes, house dust allergy, food allergy, chemical sensitivity, all sorts of stuff- just like with people) that might have made his nose sore, and let bacteria get a grasp in there."
so yes. bloody snotty face holes. well done that cat.
i hope they work out whether it's purely a long term infection (and manage to nuke it) or whether he's sensitive to something around him. are you using a clay litter with perfumes in it? what did he get litter-wise at the shelter? you might want to look at switching that, if all else fails. some cats get really sneezy just from the flipping clay dust and perfumes. did you discuss the possibility of herpes with them?
i don't know if they explained the drugs to you- if not: steroids will knock back the swelling, and if that calms down, the other stuff may well follow, especially if he has an allergy- a short burst of steroids might be enough to get his nose-tissues to calm the hell down, and stop being so itchy and swollen and sneezy and bloody and crap, that things can settle back to normal. if it can remember what normal is.
when i have allergic reactions to bug bites that drive me insane, they throw steriods at them. it can help. i also take a local steroid spray every day up my nose, to stop the tissues from getting inflamed. quite honestly though, i can't see a cat being remotely receptive to having stuff sprayed up his nose every day. so yes. maybe they'll have another plan.
antihistamines can be good if there is a cat version of them- they'll also stomp on the inflammatory response. just keep an eye out for rebound infection issues though- stopping the body from kicking up its little drippy sneezy fuss, means it can't use it's clean-up and rinse strategies quite as actively as it wants to- making the place a bit comfier for any lurking germs.
in idiot level jenny-speak it translates to:
"we poked him up the nose and took some samples. looking at the samples from some places up his nose holes, we can see that his white blood cells (the bits that fight infection) are actively doing their thing. it looks like a bunch of infection-fighting and repair cells are busy in there, doing their different jobs to try and kick something's butt. it's looking from the samples, like it's swollen, bloody, inflamed, and a bit scabby and scarred in there, pretty far up inside his nose.
the microscope says *drumroll* that he's got a pretty impressive runny nose, and he's had it for a while. (i have moderate to severe chronic active rhinitis, it's an awesome yet vague description for a rather unpleasant thing
). we can't see any cancer cells or actual germs though. the scabby bloody bits that are trying to patch themselves up in there, make us think that he might have an infection. he might also have kitty hay-fever (could be caused by litter dust, perfumes, house dust allergy, food allergy, chemical sensitivity, all sorts of stuff- just like with people) that might have made his nose sore, and let bacteria get a grasp in there."so yes. bloody snotty face holes.
well done that cat.i hope they work out whether it's purely a long term infection (and manage to nuke it) or whether he's sensitive to something around him. are you using a clay litter with perfumes in it? what did he get litter-wise at the shelter? you might want to look at switching that, if all else fails. some cats get really sneezy just from the flipping clay dust and perfumes. did you discuss the possibility of herpes with them?
i don't know if they explained the drugs to you- if not: steroids will knock back the swelling, and if that calms down, the other stuff may well follow, especially if he has an allergy- a short burst of steroids might be enough to get his nose-tissues to calm the hell down, and stop being so itchy and swollen and sneezy and bloody and crap, that things can settle back to normal. if it can remember what normal is.
when i have allergic reactions to bug bites that drive me insane, they throw steriods at them. it can help. i also take a local steroid spray every day up my nose, to stop the tissues from getting inflamed. quite honestly though, i can't see a cat being remotely receptive to having stuff sprayed up his nose every day.
so yes. maybe they'll have another plan. antihistamines can be good if there is a cat version of them- they'll also stomp on the inflammatory response. just keep an eye out for rebound infection issues though- stopping the body from kicking up its little drippy sneezy fuss, means it can't use it's clean-up and rinse strategies quite as actively as it wants to- making the place a bit comfier for any lurking germs.
They should still be able to culture a sample to determine the type of bacteria, even though he's been on antibiotics. Then, if appropriate, he can be switched to an antibiotic that's more effective against the particular bacteria.
Cats can take children's benadryl. One of mine was on it for a period of time.
Cats can take children's benadryl. One of mine was on it for a period of time.
OP
OP
Ok, so we're switching from Azithromycin to Zeniquin...something about the Zeniquin being better for the type of bacteria that showed up on the culture. And we are starting 5 mg of Prednisolone for 30 days. He does not feel that he needs an antihistamine at this time. I am going to try a different litter. I currently use World's Best and I dont' see anywhere on the package that says it's dust free. I'm pretty sure there are a few out there that are.
Bogart was really good last night and this morning. But not so good when I came home from work. It's weird how he fluctuates from one day to the next. The vet feels hopeful that the steriods will help, but he says I have to give it at least two weeks...it's not something that shows improvement in a day or two.
Bogart was really good last night and this morning. But not so good when I came home from work. It's weird how he fluctuates from one day to the next. The vet feels hopeful that the steriods will help, but he says I have to give it at least two weeks...it's not something that shows improvement in a day or two.
jeneticallymodified
Forum Legend
the steroids very likely will help, at least short term.
fingers crossed on longer term.worlds best is normally pretty good litter, it's corn based. i used to use it (for my cats) but it messed with my head by smelling a bit too much like cornflakes.
sinus things are very prone to dramatic fluctuations, allergies especially, because you get this vicious cycle going....you know the pattern from when you have a cold, right?
first you have the initial environmental irritant, or presence of a invader (like germs) which causes mucous production and inflammation... it's all runny and itchy and dreadfully sore and you keep sneezing as your body tries to expel things it doesn't like being up your nose.
after a while, things get thicker in there, and all swollen and snotty. you'll often gunk up totally, and either try and blow out booger chunks for a few days, or the bloody bits will start to crust over. that keeps any airborne particles that might be causing irritation out of the nasal membranes, which makes your histamine production settle down a bit, or your body gets a handle on the infection and starts winning,
and then you get the painful pressure in your sinuses from all the thick mucous that's been sitting there for a bit, you have to swallow all the time and have a gloopy sore throat or cough from it running down the back of your throat, and you end up swallowing loads of gunk, or your body tidies it away by magic....
eventually everything drains out, all the little sore scabs fall off, and voila... your nasal tissues are exposed to the air again... which means it potentially all starts over again.
maybe there is a pattern in his snottiness. on days when it's bad, is the central heating on? different weather conditions (possible mould, pollen, etc)? food changes?
OP
OP
He arrived at the shelter mid April which is Springtime here. I took him home on June 9...just before the start of Summer. My house was pretty spotless when he first got here so I don't think it's dust. And we have central air conditioning which has been on since July. He hasn't shown any real change during all of this time. Before the rhinosocopy, he would have a good day or two after he expelled a big mucusy chunk. It's as if he got himself cleared for a little while but then it would start up all over again.
Since the rhinoscopy, he has been drippy, but it was only thick once, just before he started the antiobiotic again. I think the Zithromax is working, somewhat, at keeping the infection at bay, but not really irradicating it completely, which is why the vet is switching to the Zeniquin. And the antibiotic is certainly not helping with why he's getting a runny nose to begin with, which is why an antihistamine kind of makes sense to me. It seems to me that you would need to know what's causing the initial runny nose (like an allergy)...all the other problems, infection, swelling, etc. seem to be an after effect.
I have switched him to grain free cat food... I don't see any change, but I like it (for him).
Since the rhinoscopy, he has been drippy, but it was only thick once, just before he started the antiobiotic again. I think the Zithromax is working, somewhat, at keeping the infection at bay, but not really irradicating it completely, which is why the vet is switching to the Zeniquin. And the antibiotic is certainly not helping with why he's getting a runny nose to begin with, which is why an antihistamine kind of makes sense to me. It seems to me that you would need to know what's causing the initial runny nose (like an allergy)...all the other problems, infection, swelling, etc. seem to be an after effect.
I have switched him to grain free cat food... I don't see any change, but I like it (for him
).
jeneticallymodified
Forum Legend
it might just take a while for the antibiotics to really nuke whatever has been having a little party in his nose. just having an infection is enough to make your nose run- cos his body will try and flush it out however it can.
You mentioned you were thinking of switching away from the World's Best Cat Litter?
I use something called Equine Pine, get it at a tractor supply store. It's about 8$ for a 40 pound bag. It's 100% kiln-dried pine pellets, and they are really absorbent. When they get wet, it does turn into a bit of a powder but it's heavy powder, if that makes sense. It doesn't fly around when the cats scrape around and "play" in the box. I've been using it for a few years when we got off of the really crappy and dusty as hell clay litter and we had tried World's Best, and lots of others.
I use something called Equine Pine, get it at a tractor supply store. It's about 8$ for a 40 pound bag. It's 100% kiln-dried pine pellets, and they are really absorbent. When they get wet, it does turn into a bit of a powder but it's heavy powder, if that makes sense. It doesn't fly around when the cats scrape around and "play" in the box. I've been using it for a few years when we got off of the really crappy and dusty as hell clay litter and we had tried World's Best, and lots of others.
jeneticallymodified
Forum Legend
some cats really love the pine stuff (it's made to use with horses, but it's the same as the feline pine- just a shed-load cheaper), which is great... some really hate the smell though, cats are very odd creatures! for those guys you can look at using wooden stove pellets (if they're not pine)- the price is about the same, so is the texture, i think. don't flush either of them down the toilet though.
~Wonder
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Wood stove pellets are $5 for 40 pounds at Menards. It doesn't clump, but it's cheap and dust free. Plus it doesn't stink like cheap perfume.
