In one-on-one interactions I think we should be nice vegans. But demonstrations to a large audience should be about effectiveness not feelings. I say **** people off if that's what it takes to shake them out of indifference. Force them to take a position. It'll result in conflict but that's exactly what's needed. Make them defend their positions out loud so everyone can hear how weak their argument really is.
No, Its Really Not About You Being a "Nicer" Vegan
- Thread starter Forest Nymph
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OP
OP
Exactly. In real life I am mostly very polite and kind, and when I've talked about animal rights or vegan/vegetarian diets in my grad program during class or presentations, I focus on concepts like speciesism, climate change or intersectional ecofeminist social justice animal rights. I honestly bend over backwards in one on one or professional interactions and I've still received completely rude and inappropriate feedback and comments.
That's why I'm so honest online because I don't think it's effective to shut up or go away because the majority is uncomfortable even during a civil discussion.
I'm also tired of the gaslighting, of people like the suspiciously-named Mischief changing the subject to race (or gender, or fat shaming, or whatever) to avoid the topic of animal rights or climate change. I don't play that game.
MOD NOTE
I've unfortunately had to delete and edit a lot of posts in this thread. Please refrain from ad hominem / personal attacks, name calling, and please stay on topic.
I've unfortunately had to delete and edit a lot of posts in this thread. Please refrain from ad hominem / personal attacks, name calling, and please stay on topic.
Well, getting pushback is fairly different from being disprivileged. Anyways:
"Niceness vs. directness" says something about tactics, but you know based on experience that not many people can be made vegan by discussion/debate. So unless you are happy only converting only as many people as you can by refinement of such tactics, "should we be nice" is the wrong framing. (The assumed question being answered by the framing being, "how to reduce animal suffering as much as possible").
IMO the right framing is probably technological, or maybe like "seize power and change ****".
"Niceness vs. directness" says something about tactics, but you know based on experience that not many people can be made vegan by discussion/debate. So unless you are happy only converting only as many people as you can by refinement of such tactics, "should we be nice" is the wrong framing. (The assumed question being answered by the framing being, "how to reduce animal suffering as much as possible").
IMO the right framing is probably technological, or maybe like "seize power and change ****".
Converting someone through discussion/debate isn't a realistic goal IMO. It's such a big change in habit and thinking it has to come from within. The best we can hope for is to plant a seed that will help that along.
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I trust that intelligent readers can discern between "some" and "all" when judging statements, or straw men replies that rely on misrepresentation of statements, which is what your response is. They may be single words but they do make a difference in the meanings of the broader context in which they are used. Some animal activism is effective, some may be effective, and some is counterproductive.
To be clear, I do not care what non-vegan friends think of what I eat or don't eat. However, I do care that outside of me, much of their information on
veganism is what they get from the news, which often (though not always) (note these functional words as well before you attempt another straw man) unfortunately falls into what I consider negative press.
I would like to start out by saying that I am a sinner.
I have also been accused of just about everything over the years. I have been called racists, antifeminist, greedy, sleazy, dishonest and everything in between. Maybe the accusations are correct. Maybe the accusations are a cheap power play.
There was a poster at this forum who talked about being vegan when you are homeless. The guy certainly was not an elitist. He was humble and thoughtful. He unintentionally taught me that I have a bias against homeless people. He changed me for the better, forever.
At the same time, we need to remember the importance of forgiveness. I am a white guy who married a black lady from South Africa in 1993. She grew up in a racially segregated society. She had a higher status as a black Afrikaaner than a black tribal person. She was a political prisoner for a couple of months because she stood up for black tribal people.
I had a good mother. She was a nice person by most reasonable standards. She once told me that I should never marry a ____. She had no negative intentions. I have a duty to remember that she said what she said because she wanted to protect me.
I recall openly admitting in 1996 that I was homophobic and proud of it. I believed that being homosexual was a bad choice and damaging to society. My primary concern about homosexuality was that gay men seemed too promiscuous to me.
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When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her." John 8:7.
I have also been accused of just about everything over the years. I have been called racists, antifeminist, greedy, sleazy, dishonest and everything in between. Maybe the accusations are correct. Maybe the accusations are a cheap power play.
There was a poster at this forum who talked about being vegan when you are homeless. The guy certainly was not an elitist. He was humble and thoughtful. He unintentionally taught me that I have a bias against homeless people. He changed me for the better, forever.
At the same time, we need to remember the importance of forgiveness. I am a white guy who married a black lady from South Africa in 1993. She grew up in a racially segregated society. She had a higher status as a black Afrikaaner than a black tribal person. She was a political prisoner for a couple of months because she stood up for black tribal people.
I had a good mother. She was a nice person by most reasonable standards. She once told me that I should never marry a ____. She had no negative intentions. I have a duty to remember that she said what she said because she wanted to protect me.
I recall openly admitting in 1996 that I was homophobic and proud of it. I believed that being homosexual was a bad choice and damaging to society. My primary concern about homosexuality was that gay men seemed too promiscuous to me.
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When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her." John 8:7.
I admit to having certain biases...sometimes we grow up in a climate where it’s inevitable. I like to think what we do/how we react to these biases is what matters. I’ve conquered most of mine, and where I have doubts, I make sure I don’t act on them in a negative way. And 9 out of 10 times I find out that my bias is unfounded. I think it’s ok to be a work a progress as long as we are heading in the right direction.
This is probably going to sound crazy, but if it weren’t for the members of Veggieboards, VeggieViews and now Vegan Forum, I hate to think where I would be today. I was pretty much living in a protective, naive bubble until someone introduced me to the vegan lifestyle. I joined these boards and met some amazing people who really opened my eyes to aspects of both humans, as well as animals. Love them for that.
This is probably going to sound crazy, but if it weren’t for the members of Veggieboards, VeggieViews and now Vegan Forum, I hate to think where I would be today. I was pretty much living in a protective, naive bubble until someone introduced me to the vegan lifestyle. I joined these boards and met some amazing people who really opened my eyes to aspects of both humans, as well as animals. Love them for that.
The problem I think is that non vegans are scared of change when it comes to people challenging everything they've grown up on. There has to be some sensitivity when it comes to challenging beliefs that have been with a person all their life. Telling someone dairy doesn't actually help your bones is kind of like telling a child Santa Claus isn't real. (Not to compare non vegans to children).
OP
OP
Yeah I will leave that job to someone else. This is a particular type of person. They also usually have race and gender issues because that's "what they've grown up with."
I grew up in the South. I only moved to California as a teenager. Only part of my family is remotely progressive. I was literally force fed, child abused with meat, I have my deceased grandma to thank for being the one person who let me be vegetarian at all before middle school. I never hated vegans or made fun of them. Even before I was one. I was vegetarian before vegan. I ran away to LA as soon as I could. I footed my own college education. I owned my own business before I was forty. I don't have a lot of patience with anyone. I looked at one of my professors last semester and said, why aren't they like me, she said she didn't know.
Not to claim I am perfect, I am short tempered, foul mouthed and like wine. My point is not that I am some perfect human. It's a sheer wonder at the absolute idiocy I saw around me in the South and elsewhere, and knowing laws not reason is our only method against these people. I grew up with them. They're domineering retards. They'll kill us all.
Don't let anyone take your spirit. We need you to speak for the ones that can't. Also, I'm so sorry. I don't want to upset you but...just maybe stop calling people bad things like the R word and maybe they'd be less offended and listen to what you have to say as helpful advice instead of taking it as an attack. I'm so sorry. I'm not saying you don't have a right to be angry. I'm just saying maybe change your approach a little. But what do I know, because I don't consider myself an activist to the truest extent. Just to a small extent. Again, I apologize. I feel so bad.
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OP
OP
I used to be nice. That's one of the reasons I know it doesn't work . I am telling you I grew up with abuse. I grew up in an environment where my reason and intelligence were questioned because I non-conformed, or was female or had large breasts. You don't understand why people give up and start cussing others out. Retard isn't even a real word now people deserving respect are intellectually disabled.
I don't like this about the white middle class. "Oh stop calling people stupid or ghetto and they'll listen to you." No they won't. You've never lived in a trailer and you have no idea what I'm saying.
I edited my comment probably 6 times because I felt so bad. I didn't know you would see the post before I edited. Look at my edit where I'm legitimately crying. I'm so sorry. Also, are you seriously assuming I'm white? Also, I live in a glamping tent which matches the same characteristics of a trailer. You're judging me, and you don't even know who I am. What is happening right now, I-----
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OP
OP
Ok I'm sorry. I also should not have used the word "retard" I don't normally (at least not off the Internet) because I actually respect the lives of the truly disabled, I meant it as an angry insult towards ignorant, willfully stupid people. I had a bad day yesterday. Take care.
...but I won't apologize for calling keto bros ketards
But no one asked you to apologize. Just know that you'll push most people away when you insult them and make them feel bad. You gotta make people feel good and feed them yummy daiya cheesecake and give them belly rubs. You get more bees with honey than you do with vinegar.
SapphireLightning
Forum Legend
Killing bees and stealing their honey are not vegan
We should come up with a much more pleasant (and vegan friendly) version of that expression. How about "You get more carnists with Daiya cheesecake than you do with gasoline"? hehe
That's clever!
OP
OP
You're still incorrect. I'm sorry for being rude to you last week, but you're totally naive about what works with animal products and most people. Feeding most people's egos allows them to feel "unjudged" about their behavior. That means they'll like you as an individual and be tolerant of vegans or plant based food, but they will change zero about their own behavior.
I don't mean attack your friends or family members constantly, but I do mean holding people accountable.
OP
OP
Same. Like why would you choose this environmentally unsustainable, potentially dangerous, cruel diet that's been given low health ratings by professionals when you can be vegetarian or vegan and lose weight? I hate weight loss culture. So many acquaintances on my Facebook feed have done keto, especially women looking to drop weight quickly.
