Original definition of vegan was better

[FredVegrox]

Thanks Vegan Dogs for showing that Abolitionist position. Standing against the speciesism is essential.

I am going to study the documents on this website and compare them to this: https://catinfo.org/docs/DrZoran.pdf and get back to you.

In the meantime, I wanted to tell you that Gary L. Francione does not use the word "veganism" synonymously with "the Abolitionist Approach to Animal Rights", so why are you doing that - saying for example,
"The first Principle of Veganism is...ANIMALS ARE NOT OURS as PROPERTY therefore we have no moral "right" to use them"?

If you are curious as to how he does use the word vegan, he uses a hybrid Watson/Cross definition. Unlike most of the people who contributed to this thread, he would not tell someone who follows a vegan diet "you're not vegan, you're plant based. You have to believe in animal rights to be a vegan." That is abundantly clear from this 2009 blog post. Here are excerpts that support the above comment (bold and bracketed commentary mine):

https://www.abolitionistapproach.com/some-thoughts-on-the-meaning-of-vegan/

I don't see that there was always the issue with those not caring about animals that would call themselves vegan, that there is just now, even with these who get called environmental vegans or health vegans. Originally vegetarianism involved caring for the animals, and was very much with the original people involved in it much like vegans are more recently. Vegetarianism became compromised with those who would still have dairy products and those who would still have use of eggs seeking to be included calling themselves vegetarians. Over generations it came to mean those who would still use eggs or dairy products, just with not having meat. I switched from being vegetarian to being vegan when I saw great reasons why to be, and not any great reason left not to be. I would hate to see the term vegan now become compromised from what I saw the good reasons for being.

 

[Vegan Dogs]

I am going to study the documents on this website and compare them to this: https://catinfo.org/docs/DrZoran.pdf and get back to you.

In the meantime, I wanted to tell you that Gary L. Francione does not use the word "veganism" synonymously with "the Abolitionist Approach to Animal Rights", so why are you doing that - saying for example,
"The first Principle of Veganism is...ANIMALS ARE NOT OURS as PROPERTY therefore we have no moral "right" to use them"?

If you are curious as to how he does use the word vegan, he uses a hybrid Watson/Cross definition. Unlike most of the people who contributed to this thread, he would not tell someone who follows a vegan diet "you're not vegan, you're plant based. You have to believe in animal rights to be a vegan." That is abundantly clear from this 2009 blog post. Here are excerpts that support the above comment (bold and bracketed commentary mine):

https://www.abolitionistapproach.com/some-thoughts-on-the-meaning-of-vegan/

but he does ! use the word VEGANISM in his 6 Principles of Animal Rights ! it could not be more clear. Here it is.

Principle Three

Abolitionists maintain that veganism is a moral baseline and that creative, nonviolent vegan education must be the cornerstone of rational animal rights advocacy.

https://www.abolitionistapproach.co...f-the-abolitionist-approach-to-animal-rights/

 

[nobody]

but he does ! use the word VEGANISM in his 6 Principles of Animal Rights ! it could not be more clear. Here it is.

Principle Three

Abolitionists maintain that veganism is a moral baseline and that creative, nonviolent vegan education must be the cornerstone of rational animal rights advocacy.

https://www.abolitionistapproach.co...f-the-abolitionist-approach-to-animal-rights/

Correct, and in the 2009 blog post he says veganism is at least the diet, so the diet is the minimal moral baseline according to him.

Edit: here is the Wikipedia article on the Eiffel Tower and in that article, they use the phrase "European Union", but that doesn't mean you can use the words Eiffel Tower and European Union interchangably. One word is used in the description of the other word, just as veganism is used in the description of his Abolitionist Approach. So I really don't see what your point is with this post. So what if he says "veganism" in Principle Three? Is that evidence to you that veganism and the Abolitionist Approach to Animal Rights are the same thing?

 

[nobody]

1. Feeding cats vegan is perfectly feasible vegan cat foods exist now since years 20 year old vegan fed cats exist.

I still have to read the stuff on vegepets and also the pdf article I posted. In the meantime I just wanted to address a couple of things briefly. One thing is, I'm really unimpressed by anecdotal statements like that, just like I would find anecdotal statements about how human babies can be raised successfully on nothing but mother's milk and fruit uncompelling, eg.

https://www.fruitgod.com/fruitarianbabie.html

Don't you?

What i do say is they are wasting their time in terms of they are not saving lives but killing thousands of lives for every 1 dog or cat if fed non vegan.

They are just speciesist ...like racism....some people prefer pet species just as some people prefer some colours of people to others.

They are not killing thousands, or even a single animal who wouldn't be killed anyway, according to the information I can find.

Recently the promoters of Evolution Pet Food, “Premium Vegan Pet Foods since 1989,” urged me to “start telling people that baby male chicks and spent layer hens are being ground up alive by the millions every day for pet foods. They are the ‘chicken’ in pet foods throughout the U.S. and Canada.” (1)

https://freefromharm.org/animal-cruelty-investigation/dark-deceptive-side-pet-food-industry/

So if you don't grind up the baby male chicks you suffocate them in garbage bags and throw them away, and if you don't grind the spent layer hens you slaughter them by slitting their throats and processing them for soup and other human uses. But you are not breeding a single animal for the regular pet food.

Some people buy whole body parts of animals for their cats, such as chicken or rabbit parts, and in that case animals are being bred to feed to cats. I would not do that. It would be too bad. What I am doing is bad, but necessary according to the best of my knowledge at the present time.

For this and many other reasons, if I could press a button that made all cats sterile I would press it and force domestic cats into extinction. I would press it with no hesitation.

That speciesism has something to do with it is contradicted by vegepets' claim that euthanized dogs and cats are in the pet food. If I know that to be true I am still going to buy it until a better solution, such as cultured meat, presents itself. Since I am buying cat food made of cats, at least partially, it cannot be speciesism.

 

[nobody]

but he does ! use the word VEGANISM

He says that buying meat cat food is never morally justifiable but that it is morally excusable in some cases, at about the 7 minute mark in this podcast. Do you agree with him that it is morally excusable in some cases?

 

[FredVegrox]

I'm really unimpressed by anecdotal statements like that, just like I would find anecdotal statements about how human babies can be raised successfully on nothing but mother's milk and fruit uncompelling, eg.

They are not killing thousands, or even a single animal who wouldn't be killed anyway, according to the information I can find.

So if you don't grind up the baby male chicks you suffocate them in garbage bags and throw them away, and if you don't grind the spent layer hens you slaughter them by slitting their throats and processing them for soup and other human uses. But you are not breeding a single animal for the regular pet food.

That speciesism has something to do with it is contradicted by vegepets' claim that euthanized dogs and cats are in the pet food. If I know that to be true I am still going to buy it until a better solution, such as cultured meat, presents itself. Since I am buying cat food made of cats, at least partially, it cannot be speciesism.

Of course just fruit after mother's milk is not the needed variety for adequate nutrition. But a full variety of vegan nutrition would be good for a baby, from the time still having mother's milk, through the rest of life, best of all.

Is it not realized? Animal agriculture makes money, it is supporting that animal agriculture, with the parts being left for pet food. They get the money for that, which is why we shouldn't support that business, and it is poor quality stuff going into the petfood, that isn't really healthy for pets getting that. They can have much better quality food from vegan petfood. And the needed taurine is put in vegan cat food.

We really don't have shown so good a reason to get food, other than vegan pet food, for dogs or cats we are caring for. If we care for the animals with need we see to get them animal products, this is not living in a vegan way, as that isn't consistent. But with dogs or cats cared for, it does not have to be that way, actually.

 

[nobody]

And the needed taurine is put in vegan cat food.

Cats also need arginine, methionine, and cysteine. Can you post the ingredient list of canned vegan cat food that shows those 3 amino acids are also in the vegan cat food (which must be canned food for proper cat health, not kibble, due the lack of moisture, which leads to dehydration and urinary tracts problems., like crystals/inability to pee, etc.)?

https://catinfo.org/docs/DrZoran.pdf

In addition to their increased need for dispensable protein, cats also have need for increased amounts of specific amino acids in their diet: taurine, arginine, methionine, and cysteine.2 These specific amino acid
requirements of cats have likely been determined on the basis that their natural diet contains an abundance of each of these specific amino acids (in addition to 11 essential amino acids; Appendix 2). The likely reason that synthetic pathways for these amino acids, which are found in omnivorous species, are not found in cats is that they are redundant and, thus, energy inefficient. Furthermore, even though cats do not have the ability to synthesize these amino acids, the amino acids are not conserved. In fact, utilization of these amino acids (taurine, arginine, methionine, and cysteine) is higher in cats than in dogs or other animals.

 

[FredVegrox]

Cats also need arginine, methionine, and cysteine. Can you post the ingredient list of canned vegan cat food that shows those 3 amino acids are also in the vegan cat food (which must be canned food for proper cat health, not kibble, due the lack of moisture, which leads to dehydration and urinary tracts problems., like crystals/inability to pee, etct.)?

No, I won't post the ingredient list of canned vegan cat food. I don't have a cat and I am sure I still won't be caring for a certain cat, so I won't go get a can of vegan cat food just to show you the ingredient list of it. Why should it be you who makes the unreasonable demands of others to show things? You are the one choosing to care for a cat. You have been shown information that shows cats have thrived long term with vegan cat food, so that was clearly supplied with all needed nutrients, and the desired flavor, without animal flesh. If you yet choose to only feed a cat pet food with animal products that you get for that, it just is not being vegan, and you just want to argue on through here for someone to still tell you that you are vegan in doing that. You can look into the information for your cat yourself, including the information already shared here for that, or if you don't and still just feed your cat the food with animal flesh you go get for that, it isn't being vegan doing that still.

 

[nobody]

No, I won't post the ingredient list of canned vegan cat food. I don't have a cat and I am sure I still won't be caring for a certain cat, so I won't go get a can of vegan cat food just to show you the ingredient list of it. Why should it be you who makes the unreasonable demands of others to show things? You are the one choosing to care for a cat. You have been shown information that shows cats have thrived long term with vegan cat food, so that was clearly supplied with all needed nutrients, and the desired flavor, without animal flesh. If you yet choose to only feed a cat pet food with animal products that you get for that, it just is not being vegan, and you just want to argue on through here for someone to still tell you that you are vegan in doing that. You can look into the information for your cat yourself, including the information already shared here for that, or if you don't and still just feed your cat the food with animal flesh you go get for that, it isn't being vegan doing that still.

Okay, here is the ingredient list of Evolution.
http://www.veganessentials.com/catalog/evolution-canned-vegan-cat-food.htm

Gourmet Entrée Flavor - Filtered water sufficient for processing, peas, potatoes, brown rice, avocado, carrots, wheat germ, oat groats, dicalcium phosphate, soybean oil, brewer's dried yeast, DL-Methionine, L-Taurine, guar gum, sea kelp, DL-Alpha tocopherol acetate (vitamin E), vitamin A acetate, ergocalciferol (vitamin D2), choline chloride, ferrous sulfate, zinc oxide, manganese oxide, niacin, calcium pantothenate, copper oxide, manganese sulfate, riboflavin supplment (vitamin B2), thiamine mononitrate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12 supplement, sodium selenate, arachidonic acid

Vegetable Stew Flavor - Filtered water sufficient for processing, peas, potatoes, brown rice, carrots, wheat germ, oat groats, dicalcium phosphate, soybean oil, brewer's dried yeast, DL-Methionine, L-Taurine, L-Carnitine, guar gum, sea kelp, DL-Alpha tocopherol acetate (vitamin E), vitamin A acetate, ergocalciferol (vitamin D2), choline chloride, ferrous sulfate, zinc oxide, manganese oxide, manganese sulfate, riboflavin supplment (vitamin B2), thiamine mononitrate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12 supplement, sodium selenate, arachidonic acid

I don't see arginine and cysteine on these lists.

 

[FredVegrox]

Okay, here is the ingredient list of Evolution.
http://www.veganessentials.com/catalog/evolution-canned-vegan-cat-food.htm

I don't see arginine and cysteine on these lists.

As long as you are determined to have a cat and care for the cat, for feeding, if you would be vegan, it is up to you to find the healthy vegan cat food. It can be with calling companies about the needed aminos. Still, as I heard mentioned, there are healthy vegan cats groups online, including on Facebook, where there is information for this, as there is care for healthy cats there. I looked up what these needed nutrients are, and found the following: "One unique feature about cats is that a few of their essential amino acids are only found in animal proteins – taurine and arginine. This means that they must eat meat". If what I find about this says that, where are you getting that cats need cysteine that is just in meat? From this, you should just be concerned about arginine. The other needed nutrients besides taurine are in vegetable foods.

 

[nobody]

If what I find about this says that, where are you getting that cats need cysteine that is just in meat?

I posted the source and a quote above. I don't know if it is just in meat.

https://catinfo.org/docs/DrZoran.pdf

In addition to their increased need for dispensable protein, cats also have need for increased amounts of specific amino acids in their diet: taurine, arginine, methionine, and cysteine.2 These specific amino acid
requirements of cats have likely been determined on the basis that their natural diet contains an abundance of each of these specific amino acids (in addition to 11 essential amino acids; Appendix 2). The likely reason that synthetic pathways for these amino acids, which are found in omnivorous species, are not found in cats is that they are redundant and, thus, energy inefficient. Furthermore, even though cats do not have the ability to synthesize these amino acids, the amino acids are not conserved. In fact, utilization of these amino acids (taurine, arginine, methionine, and cysteine) is higher in cats than in dogs or other animals.

 

[FredVegrox]

I posted the source and a quote above. I don't know if it is just in meat.
https://catinfo.org/docs/DrZoran.pdf

I don't know about the logic used there why cats don't have ability to synthesize certain aminos, but I do note that source does not mention meat to claim that these only come from meat, or only animal products. The source I used for quoting is talking about animal products, where it has the conclusion that cats must eat meat, this site only speaks of taurine and arginine being needed that is just found in animal products. https://www.petnet.io/blogs/food/essential-amino-acids-for-your-cats For those in the wild, I agree, they must eat meat. They're predators. If a human person is caring for a cat as a pet, with providing and feeding the cat, this human person would be vegan only if just buying and using plant-based products, and wouldn't be if getting meat from what is derived from slaughtered animals, which contribute to the demand that animal agriculture profits from. But responsible care for a cat with providing the food is with making sure there is arginine and taurine. That cats fed with vegan cat food grow healthy with long lives shows this can be done. Why not join to learn from those doing this in a Healthy Vegan Cats group, so providing for a cat this way can be done? It is just those who are not vegan who don't care.

 

[The Master Of Design]

Oh @nobody ... I have so much to say but I will try to make it short.

First of all, the definition doesn't matter. What matters is are you paying and contributing to animal cruelty and are you eating the animals even if you have a choice and other alternatives (which snakes doesn't have).

But let's say for a moment that definition does matter. If you are following a "vegan diet" that doesn't make you a Vegan. You are simply trying new food in this case and you are more worried about your health than carrying about animals. Also, the majority of people who eat meat and rescue dogs and cats are doing that because these dogs or cats are small or cute and they will get a reward by society. Of course, they don't think of it this way but it is in the back of their mind unconsciously. Because if they were living consciously they wouldn't eat meat. (I consider the minority those who don't have the information or simply the resources to be a Vegan) All people think they are good in their hearts even if that's not the truth. (but it's good that at least they think so, otherwise, it would be even more disaster in the world).

For me (as I don't care for the definition) Vegan is someone who simply respects all living beings and is not paying, eating or contributing to the suffering of any animal. Of course, I don't judge and understand that a lot of people are going through hard times in their lives and I don't expect everyone to be a Vegan but I do not understand why people who have the information about Veganism and have decent good life, living in a country where there are a lot of vegan options, still doubt and wants to eat a little meat from time to time... That's not acceptable. You are not paying to someone to kill another human being so you can eat him from time to time... I really don't understand these people.

I could go on and on with this...
Read this reply twice and if you still don't get it I don't have an answer for you.
I hope this helps someone though.

 

[Olychka]

Veganism is a stricter form of vegetarianism; like vegetarians, vegans don't eat any animals that have been killed and also avoid animal products altogether, like eggs or dairy products and, usually, no honey either.

 

[SapphireLightning]

According to the Vegan Society, the word vegan didn't have a definition before 1949, ergo the first definition is also the current one.

https://www.vegansociety.com/about-us/history

Also, I have no problem with someone trying to encourage people to eat plant based. But it is just that, Plant based. Or strict vegetarian. Changing the definition for such an important world view as veganism would just add to confusion and may hinder our efforts. So, enjoy encouraging people to go plant based, if you must, just please use the correct word as there are already too many people who are confused by the word vegan.

(Anyone else here been asked if vegans are gluten free? Bonus points if you were eating seitan at the time )

 

[Vegan Dogs]

Interesting points.

The simple "animals are not ours to use" statement i made is not a direct Gary Francione lawyer quote from his 6 principles even if it sums up his 1st principle about animals not being our "property" principle...it is the simpler to understand slogan that PETA use that is easier and more clear to understand....it implies that animals are not "property" so we have no "right" to use them

Which as I say is simple to understand.

Our whole attitude to "using" animals as things to eat wear or food for our preferred unnaturally "owned" pets is based on "ownership" views we hold...otherwise we would not USE animals meaning kill them.

That website I gave you is of the highest qualified in the world vet and scientist qualified in nutrition person. The bio long list of his qualifications are unmatched by anyone else writing waffled type articles.

ps I add what i just wrote elsewhere regarding the issue of "using" animals as pet food. It is no different to "using" them as our own food.

Firstly making statements that a vegan balanced nutritionist prepared diet for dogs and cats does harm without supporting evidence is not valid.

2ndly there are millions of healthy long lived vegan cats and dogs around now since years. Several cats over 20 years old currently thriving Bramble dog famous lived 25 years healthy vegan fed and several of her companion dogs similar long healthy lives. For decades peasants fed dogs veggie slops and they thrived.

3rdly The 1st principle of Veganism is..."animals are not ours to use" so one is not vegan if not respecting that basic principle.

4thly Animals are not "meat" they have names.

5th Let no one talk about "lack of choice" of what to eat about a pet dog or cat when not also recognising the very obvious but ignored "lack of choice to die" of the victims that humans "unnaturally" breed and kill.

pictures of...2 uk 20 year old cats...the black one Celine in her 21st year currently both tested very healthy several times in their lives...fed vegan commercial kibble.

My dogs hyper energy needs ages now 9 and 8. No issue of "where do their get their protein"

Meat is not a scientific word..."nutrients" is. That is what any animal needs to thrive.

www.vegepets.com for education needs.

Animals are not ours...so it is not vegan to use and kill them. It is very simple. There is nothing natural about a hairless ape human keeping a non human animal for their entire lives...this is not what happens in nature.

 

[Peaceful]

One essentially involves pointing fingers and saying "you're not one of us".

I'd rather leave it up to individuals to interpret a definition and use the detailed insight they have on their own lifestyles to determine if the definition fits them, or if they'd like to change their lifestyle to fit. The current definition's "possible and practicable" leaves room for the different challenges and circumstances different people may face in eliminating animal products from their consumption.

Sure, some people will straight up interpret the definition wrong (or use a different definition entirely). But I think if we could end the infighting over who's vegan enough it would help our cause more than ostracizing some well-meaning people who perhaps don't fully get what veganism is about.

It sounds like we disagree on how veganism should be defined. But I think there's more to be gained from seeing ourselves as allies than in me accusing you of not being a real vegan and you accusing me of being an animal rights extremist.

As I read through this thread I realize even though I dont consume meat or dairy or fish (unless it's been prepared by an unknowing and well meaning loved one I will skip the meat and eat a bit of the meal- knowing I'll be in pain shortly after), maybe honey on occasion, apparently I'm not vegan..... ? Because i didnt quit for the animals?

I like your take. To me not eating these things are for my health and the health of my family. I find farmed animals "homes" and life to be disgusting and inhumane, dont use any animal products that I'm aware of.... but I'm not vegan.... Lol this is silly. I was hoping to find a supportive group and good recipes.

Maybe I'm a well meaning vegetarian... Lol

 

[Sally]

Ok then I have a question. In your opinion (or whoever wants to answer this), is it alright for a dietary vegan who does not believe in animal rights to simply be called a "vegan", without the "dietary" qualifier in front of it?

So far as I am concerned a Vegan is someone who does everything in their power to exclude animal products in their life, So, not eating, not using animal tested cosmetics, not wearing wool, leather, silk, fur or feathers or anything else that involves animals. I include not using animals for profit and so-called pleasure. The idea that the animal likes it is extremely subjective if it does it for reward. Animals should be treated as equals not children. At present it is had to be completely vegan as their will be the unknown, especially in medication, but where it is possible to be a vegan you must not permit knowingly, anything into your life that harms or exploits an animal.

This is just my interpretation. I think we need definitions, after all if someone is a vegan who just doesn't eat animals, then what am I?

 

[nobody]

This is just my interpretation. I think we need definitions, after all if someone is a vegan who just doesn't eat animals, then what am I?

An "ethical vegan". If we don't care about utility of words and we are going to have vegan mean the exact same thing as ethical vegan, then why not just call every person, place and thing vegan? That wouldn't be confusing at all.

How do you feel about buying compost worms for the vermicompost bin in your kitchen? This is clearly animal exploitation but it is a form I am okay with morally. I don't have the bin or worms yet but I'm going to order a "Hungry Bin" worm bin and 2,000 Eisenia fetida worms.

 

[Emma JC]

As I read through this thread I realize even though I dont consume meat or dairy or fish (unless it's been prepared by an unknowing and well meaning loved one I will skip the meat and eat a bit of the meal- knowing I'll be in pain shortly after), maybe honey on occasion, apparently I'm not vegan..... ? Because i didnt quit for the animals?

I like your take. To me not eating these things are for my health and the health of my family. I find farmed animals "homes" and life to be disgusting and inhumane, dont use any animal products that I'm aware of.... but I'm not vegan.... Lol this is silly. I was hoping to find a supportive group and good recipes.

Maybe I'm a well meaning vegetarian... Lol

This type of argument takes up a very small portion of this amazing website and forum so I suggest ignoring this and enjoy the amazing support, suggestion, recipes etc from the other areas. It is a bit quieter than normal, here, I imagine due to summer holidays etc. There are amazing, educated and helpful people here and we hope you stick around.

I tend not to call myself anything other than maybe a starchivore. Sometimes to clarify I say I eat a vegan diet, actually beyond vegan as I limit oils, salts and sugars. I do the best I can to limit my impact on animals and the environment.

Emma JC