ledboots
Peace
beancounter
The Fire That Burns Within
beancounter
The Fire That Burns Within
peacefulveglady
Forum Legend
I seen an article that said its connected too ISIS.... Some Christian told me that its during the muslim holiday Ramdan to go on a killing frenzy because our muslim president allowed it.. Wow!!!
FortyTwo
Custom Title
You don't get to do that, sorry.
Their deaths were political. They were killed because of something politically relevant.
I think @ledboots is asking not to use this tragedy for discussion about whether the availability of guns in the US has something to do with this.
I tend to agree.
Yes, the shooter had it very easy to legally buy an assault-style rifle, but he likely would also have been able to kill many people with a less deadly weapon.
I tend to agree.
Yes, the shooter had it very easy to legally buy an assault-style rifle, but he likely would also have been able to kill many people with a less deadly weapon.
FortyTwo
Custom Title
I'll try to be concise here because I'm so f*cking angry I could probably rant for three hours, but there are a few important things to remember here.
One, this was an act of homophobic violence by a violent man. Religion and mental illness do not play into this. I don't care why he was homophobic and violent. If that was motivated by some sort of misguided religious belief then so be it, I don't care. When you blame Islam for this crime, you not only throw LGBTQ Muslims under the bus, but you discount all the incredible efforts the Orlando Muslim community has made to help the victims of this tragedy when our own medical care system refuses help from gay and bi men (as well as trans women, infuriatingly). Now is not the time nor the place to speculate about ISIS. Any and all references to this man's race or religion are, beyond a shadow of a doubt, intended to change the focus of this horror from homophobia and gun violence to the same damn Conservative fearmongering.
Two, if we had a ban on assault weapons, this shooting would not have happened. Period. This is absolutely a gun control issue, as well as one of homophobia - see why this can't be depoliticized? The existence of tragedies like this absolutely and completely hinges on the fact that we as a nation refuse to take responsibility for this **** or to do anything about it. This is not the time to be touchy-feely-we-are-all-humans, this is not the time to push respectability politics. This is the time to take action and actually stop further LGBTQ people from being killed by f*cking terrorists.
Three, listen to LGBTQ people on this. This is not an opportunity for debate or devil's advocacy (I am including this post when I say this). Don't shut LGBTQ people down, don't tell us we're too angry or how we should be reacting. Trust us because this is the **** we have been saying for years and it is time to de-center yourself and listen. Support, and listen. Straight cis people are not center stage here, concern over ISIS is not center stage here. This is a very real, horrific thing, and however much distress over this tragedy you feel as a member of the human race, you do not understand the pure gut-twisting horror with which we have had to process this **** which is directed at us specifically.
To sum it up: There is no depoliticizing this. This is about homophobia, this is about gun control. Listen to the community.
One, this was an act of homophobic violence by a violent man. Religion and mental illness do not play into this. I don't care why he was homophobic and violent. If that was motivated by some sort of misguided religious belief then so be it, I don't care. When you blame Islam for this crime, you not only throw LGBTQ Muslims under the bus, but you discount all the incredible efforts the Orlando Muslim community has made to help the victims of this tragedy when our own medical care system refuses help from gay and bi men (as well as trans women, infuriatingly). Now is not the time nor the place to speculate about ISIS. Any and all references to this man's race or religion are, beyond a shadow of a doubt, intended to change the focus of this horror from homophobia and gun violence to the same damn Conservative fearmongering.
Two, if we had a ban on assault weapons, this shooting would not have happened. Period. This is absolutely a gun control issue, as well as one of homophobia - see why this can't be depoliticized? The existence of tragedies like this absolutely and completely hinges on the fact that we as a nation refuse to take responsibility for this **** or to do anything about it. This is not the time to be touchy-feely-we-are-all-humans, this is not the time to push respectability politics. This is the time to take action and actually stop further LGBTQ people from being killed by f*cking terrorists.
Three, listen to LGBTQ people on this. This is not an opportunity for debate or devil's advocacy (I am including this post when I say this). Don't shut LGBTQ people down, don't tell us we're too angry or how we should be reacting. Trust us because this is the **** we have been saying for years and it is time to de-center yourself and listen. Support, and listen. Straight cis people are not center stage here, concern over ISIS is not center stage here. This is a very real, horrific thing, and however much distress over this tragedy you feel as a member of the human race, you do not understand the pure gut-twisting horror with which we have had to process this **** which is directed at us specifically.
To sum it up: There is no depoliticizing this. This is about homophobia, this is about gun control. Listen to the community.
FortyTwo
Custom Title
I'm sorry, but it's just basic logic that someone with a pistol or a knife wouldn't get nearly as far as someone with an assault rifle. In the former situation, it would have been tragic, but comparatively extremely limited. In the latter situation, a man singlehandedly gained military control over a building and murdered 50 people, with around 50 more being injured.
Getting rid of assault weapons does not destroy hate crime, by any means. But at this point if you honestly believe it would not dramatically decrease the death toll you are lying to yourself. The proof is in the sheer amount of mass shootings we've had, there is no denying this, and doing so is incredibly shitty to the people who have to live in constant fear of being targeted as so many already have been.
This has become much less of a ~hot topic~ and more of something we desperately need to address, immediately, before even more people senselessly die.
ETA: If I seem like I'm mad, it's because I am. No shame in that. This is infuriating.
But for the record, I'm not personally attacking anyone in this thread. Simply trying to address elements of discussion that are absolutely not okay given what just happened.
No, because we as a modern society hand over the monopoly on violence to the police.
In most other countries (some parts of the UK police exempted), police officers do carry guns even though normal citizens are not able to own guns in the same amount as in the US.
Why should the police also give away their guns? Yes, there are horrible examples of police officers misusing their guns, but IMO the way to tackle that problem is through better control of the police force (e.g. using body cams)
FortyTwo
Custom Title
Absolutely.
We need to heavily regulate the police force, make sure the right people get in and the wrong people are kept out. Our legal system needs massive readjustment to make sure police officers who have abused their power in the past are brought to justice, and to make sure those who would abuse their power in the future have a reason to fear doing so.
We need to heavily downscale our military and separate its relation with our police. The fact that our police force is able to create essentially an isolated military quarantine of any town whenever they feel like it is horrifying. Our military needs to be able to defend our country, but it should not act as a stockpile of high-tech death machines, and it cannot be turned on our own citizens.
Police need to focus on deescalation and disarming. Guns should be a threat of violence and not immediate death. Most people shut down when a gun is pointed at them. Barely even needs to be loaded, honestly. This is obviously excepted in the case of an actively violent individual with weapons technology on par with the police - in this case it would be illegally obtained. Illegal obtainment is obviously not going to suddenly stop existing because of legislation, but the point is to reduce. If the police go up against a shooter now versus with gun control, it's exactly the same situation, so why not reduce the amount of shooters? Get rid of the potential for legal obtainment (which is by far the most common method for mass shootings).
As for second amendment rights - look, I'm sure that you are good with guns. I'm sure lots of people are 'reasonable gun owners' and such. But you need to accept that shitheads have ruined that for you. There is no way to ensure everyone's safety while still allowing people to own and carry firearms so easily. That is a fact. Sometimes we need to have legal rights restricted for the sake of safety. It's unfortunate, but it's the world we live in. Sorry.
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A lot of police departments in the US have former military personnel on their force. I have to wonder how much screening they get when they're hired, and whether that includes possible or potential PTSD, which can be triggered at any time. Additionally, cops who don't have a military background can experience events which can trigger PTSD much later. This could explain why little or poorly trained cops react poorly or too aggressively in certain situations.
ledboots
Peace
All humans are allowed to feel gobsmacked by this horrific act, 42. Everyone I know was checking Facebooks of friends, family, and coworkers in the early morning hours to make sure they weren't in that club. Hands sweating and shaking, hearts in mouths, lips silently pleading 'please no'.
I was so lucky that no one I know in my personal life was in that particular club on that horrendous night. Today at work will be emotional, our first day back after the horror, still not sure if any of our patients were murdered or wounded. (Our medical practice has specialists in gender reassignment, as well as fertility, IVF, etc, and we work closely with the LGBTQ leaders in our community.)
My previous post was just a plea to let the loved ones of the dead and wounded grieve. Because at first, it doesn't matter why or how it happened. The young person (x50) is suddenly gone, silent, no longer here...this is a lot for his loved ones to take in. I just want them to have time to breathe and deal with the shock. The anger phase of grief will set in for them, and that is the appropriate time to discuss the murderer and his motives, and how we can stop this from ever happening again...
I was so lucky that no one I know in my personal life was in that particular club on that horrendous night. Today at work will be emotional, our first day back after the horror, still not sure if any of our patients were murdered or wounded. (Our medical practice has specialists in gender reassignment, as well as fertility, IVF, etc, and we work closely with the LGBTQ leaders in our community.)
My previous post was just a plea to let the loved ones of the dead and wounded grieve. Because at first, it doesn't matter why or how it happened. The young person (x50) is suddenly gone, silent, no longer here...this is a lot for his loved ones to take in. I just want them to have time to breathe and deal with the shock. The anger phase of grief will set in for them, and that is the appropriate time to discuss the murderer and his motives, and how we can stop this from ever happening again...
The father of the gunman said that his son was angered after he saw two men kissing in Miami.Orlando shootings: Club attacker had 'grudge in his heart', father says - BBC News
