Spang
Foot Fetisher
- Joined
- May 31, 2012
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- 46
FortyTwo
Custom Title
Do we really have to keep focusing on the identity of the shooter? I'm frankly disgusted that you keep pulling this nonsense. The focus should be on the victims here, not whatever conservative Islamophobic agenda good ol' boy politicians are intent on pushing.
The shooter's motives were clear. He wanted gay people dead. Anything else is excess and useless in the face of this mind-numbing tragedy.
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FBI says Orlando gunman had been on watchlist; six wounded in shooting still critically injured
Despite the opposition of the NRA and those on the right, there is no reasonable reason why individuals who have been on the FBI's terrorism watch list should not be barred from owning guns. The same thing with any individual who has made threats against anyone, whether against individual(s) or groups of people.
Anyone who is unstable enough to make threats should not own a gun. Period.
Despite the opposition of the NRA and those on the right, there is no reasonable reason why individuals who have been on the FBI's terrorism watch list should not be barred from owning guns. The same thing with any individual who has made threats against anyone, whether against individual(s) or groups of people.
Anyone who is unstable enough to make threats should not own a gun. Period.
AeryFairy
Anachronism
There was likely a racial aspect too, considering that it was a latinx night, and of the victims whose identities are known so far, almost all (if not all) are latinx/black.
MadamSarcastra
MadamSarcastra, over & out.
Look at this simply & psychologically.... the guy was obviously a latent! A closet case, as well as a basket case. And he took out his inner rage & self-loathing on dozens of innocent people. Certainly not the first time that's ever happened.... and, sadly, it won't be the last. 
FortyTwo
Custom Title
Very true - I apologize for not mentioning that. It seems to be swept under the rug a lot.
Point being, this was absolutely a hate crime.
FortyTwo
Custom Title
Look at this simply & psychologically.... the guy was obviously a latent! A closet case, as well as a basket case. And he took out his inner rage & self-loathing on dozens of innocent people. Certainly not the first time that's ever happened.... and, sadly, it won't be the last.
As well as your intentions probably are, this isn't okay.
Mentally ill people are not automatically violent. Violent people are not automatically mentally ill. Most murders are committed by neurotypical people, and mentally ill people face more violence for being mentally ill than they dish out from being mentally ill.
The instant jump to this shooter (or any person who is homophobic) being closeted is one that conservative politicians love. Basically a sort of "let's blame the gay community for their own problems." Couldn't be a straight guy, hm? It just had to be One Of The Gays themselves. Nice and comfy, avoids blame for societal ills, becomes yet another tragedy resulting from inner turmoil.
As a mentally ill, closeted gay guy, this attitude does not sit well with me.
FortyTwo
Custom Title
Also, before anyone mentions it (I mean, hopefully you're not trying to "gotcha" me about this, but...) I know that there is evidence the shooter had gone to the club before, and that he was on grindr. Killers usually scope out their future crime scene and their victims before going about their murder, but even so, what if the shooter was gay? A "closet case" as MadamSarcastra said. What does that change? This was still a racist, homophobic crime. Whether it was prompted by internal homophobia (which wouldn't exist if not for the routine oppression of gay people in society) or external homophobia (the case we've assumed all along, a straight homophobic man) doesn't matter.
There's a misconception that being closeted is equivalent to being self loathing. That's simply not the case. There are many reasons for not being public about various aspects of one's life, ranging from trying to avoid physical harm being done to oneself to simply not wanting to have to deal with other people's perceptions/biases to simply preferring privacy .
For those who think Islam is the problem, a reminder that hatred manifests itself in many ideologies: Pastor refuses to mourn Orlando victims: ‘The tragedy is that more of them didn’t die’
I agree that people who make dangerous threats or attack others (there are reports that the shooter abused his first wife) should be specially evaluated or barred from owning weapons (the same as ex-convicts), but in the case of people who have been removed from watch lists, I am not so sure.
After all, it might be quite easy to get put on such a watch list, simply by being reported to authorities for speaking in Arabic or similar....
On the other hand, I strongly believe that there are few reasons for normal people to own guns...
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Are there no legal possibilities to hold these people (the pastor in the article and that of the Westboro Baptist Church) responsible for inciting hate crimes?
ledboots
Peace
Interesting article, but the title is patently wrong.
It should be called "Admit it: These Terrorists are Muslim extremists", as this is what the author is warning against.
He clearly writes that not all Muslims should be condemned (not surprisingly, as he is himself a liberal Muslim scholar)
ledboots
Peace
"Twenty-year-old Patience Carter was partying with her friends Akyra Murray, 18, and Tiara Parker, at Pulse nightclub in Orlando, Florida Saturday night when gunman Omar Mateen opened fire and killed 49 revelers in the gay club - including Murray, the youngest victim.
"During a press conference on Tuesday at Florida Hospital Orlando, Carter recalled her memories of the shooting, read a poem about her survivor's guilt and revealed previously unreported details about how the gunman - including the fact that he promised not to shoot any black people because they had 'suffered enough'."
Orlando victim sobs as she reads poem about survivor's guilt
"During a press conference on Tuesday at Florida Hospital Orlando, Carter recalled her memories of the shooting, read a poem about her survivor's guilt and revealed previously unreported details about how the gunman - including the fact that he promised not to shoot any black people because they had 'suffered enough'."
Orlando victim sobs as she reads poem about survivor's guilt
ledboots
Peace
One eyewitness gave an account to ABC News of the gunman’s actions inside the nightclub.
“He said, ‘Didn’t I say don’t text? Give me all your phones. Who’s in here? Are you guys Black?’ The couple said yeah. He said, ‘I don’t have an issue with the Blacks.’ And then he got on the phone. I don’t know if it was the news or the police department, telling them America needs to stop bombing ISIS.”
Race and the Orlando Nightclub Massacre: Witness Alleges Shooter Said ‘I Don't Have An Issue with the Blacks’ - Atlanta Black Star
“He said, ‘Didn’t I say don’t text? Give me all your phones. Who’s in here? Are you guys Black?’ The couple said yeah. He said, ‘I don’t have an issue with the Blacks.’ And then he got on the phone. I don’t know if it was the news or the police department, telling them America needs to stop bombing ISIS.”
Race and the Orlando Nightclub Massacre: Witness Alleges Shooter Said ‘I Don't Have An Issue with the Blacks’ - Atlanta Black Star
I don't agree. First of all, I don't think the article racist, and second I think that it does make sense to look at what made that person hate LBTQ+ people.
As we see later in the thread, both radical Muslim and radical Christian ministers try to incite hatred against LBTQ+ people. The difference to me is that Christian ministers are reprimanded by 99 % of their fellow ministers for such statements, while among radical (or even "average") Muslims, there seems to be tacit approval that a different sexual orientation is an aberration, with many seeing it as a reason for punishment
So IMO more education by liberal Muslim thinkers is definitely needed. The question to me is whether such liberal Muslim thinkers are able to execute a moderate influence on the majority of their congregation and how they can be supported.
FortyTwo
Custom Title
I don't agree. First of all, I don't think the article racist, and second I think that it does make sense to look what made that person hate LBTQ+ people.
As we see later in the thread, both radical Muslim and radical Christian ministers try to incite hatred against LBTQ+ people. The difference to me is that Christian ministers are reprimanded by 99 % of their fellow ministers for such statements, while among radical (or even more moderate) Muslims, there seems to be tacit approval that a different sexual orientation is an aberration, with many seeing it as a reason for punishment
That article in particular was written by a Muslim scholar, so I guess I can't really comment on that. Doesn't change the fact that focusing on the race of the shooter is both something the conservative media is loving as it fuels their own agenda, and something that takes attention away from the victims.
I'm glad to be able to say you're not correct about Muslims. I think there's more hate in the Christian community (and leadership, especially political) than you realize, and less in the Muslim community.
Radical Muslims believe a lot of ridiculous things. So do radical Christians. It is tempting to get incredibly angry with religion in general for the views of extremists, but it obscures the truth. That's one hell of a hard lesson I've had to learn over the past six years or so.
Religion is not race, which is why I do not agree that the article is "racist". "Anti Muslim", possibly.
My personal problem with that article is that it refers to a 2009 poll of UK muslims that found that 0 % of those polled tolerate different sexual orientation, while there is actually also a 2015 poll available (easily found as "related article" to the original Guardian article) that shows that 18 % of the UK Muslim population accept it now (which is still low, but definitely much better than 0 %).
Mind you, I am writing this from Malaysia, one of many Muslim countries where it is illegal and punishable with jail time to have a different sexual orientation
My personal problem with that article is that it refers to a 2009 poll of UK muslims that found that 0 % of those polled tolerate different sexual orientation, while there is actually also a 2015 poll available (easily found as "related article" to the original Guardian article) that shows that 18 % of the UK Muslim population accept it now (which is still low, but definitely much better than 0 %).
Mind you, I am writing this from Malaysia, one of many Muslim countries where it is illegal and punishable with jail time to have a different sexual orientation
MadamSarcastra
MadamSarcastra, over & out.
I was just trying to throw out another possible theory... instead of this immediately going to "racist" or "religious fanatic" or "radicalized".... like it always does. Cripes, now I know why I preferred to stay out of discussions like this, such as they are. Too heated, too emotional, very understandably. I was just trying to think of other scenarios... maybe I read to many crime thrillers, or have watched/played too many CSI/Criminal Minds type things.... it's a real possibility, though, beyond mere recon. My apologies if I offended anyone. But I've seen some serious denial in guys in the past.... the most vehement of homophobes always possesses some severe underlying issues.
