US Orlando Shooting at Pulse

[Second Summer]

I think addressing hyper-masculinity is a good start.

I think that's a good point. For example, I think I've observed a definite difference in the range of self-expression and ways of "being male" between the US and western Europe. In Europe it feels like there is a less rigid pattern / mould you have to fit into.

 

[ledboots]

Orlando nightclub shooting: Read about the victims

 

[Spang]

"We find solace and sanctuary in the club because we are so often expelled from other public spaces – from bathrooms, from street corners, from jobs, from history. Our survival is our resistance. And our solidarity and support for the Muslim community in these coming days and months – some of whom are queer and trans – will lift us all up in the face of anyone seeking to further marginalize another."

--Chelsea Manning

 

[beancounter]

One thing that occurred to me that I find strange.

Where were the bouncers/security guards? Apparently the club had them

 

[Spang]

One thing that occurred to me that I find strange.

Where were the bouncers/security guards? Apparently the club had them

Doing courageous things:

Imran Yousuf, a 24-year-old bouncer at Pulse and an Afghanistan War veteran, helped usher up to 70 people to safety, using his military training and quick thinking to save dozens of lives.

 

[ledboots]

This young woman tells her survivor story. Long, but totally worth reading.


"At a news conference Tuesday at Florida Hospital Orlando, 20-year-old Patience Carter hugged the medical team that treated her after she was shot multiple times during Sunday's massacre.

Pulse nightclub shooting survivor Angel Santiago:

This is her account, in her own words.

'Before I start to share my story, I want to recite a poem that I wrote in the middle of the night last night, which really shows everything that I'm feeling right now. And it's a part of my healing process: writing. So…

The guilt of feeling grateful to be alive is heavy.

Wanting to smile about surviving but not sure if the people around you are ready.

As the world mourns, the victims killed and viciously slain, I feel guilty about screaming about my legs in pain.

Because I could feel nothing like the other 49 who weren't so lucky to feel this pain of mine.

I never thought in a million years that this could happen.

I never thought in a million years that my eyes could witness something so tragic.

Looking at the souls leaving the bodies of individuals. Looking at the killer's machine gun throughout my right peripheral. Looking at the blood and debris covered on everyone's faces. Looking at the gunman's feet under the stall as he paces.

The guilt of feeling lucky to be alive is heavy.

It's like the weight of the ocean's walls crushing uncontrolled by levies. It's like being drug through the grass with a shattered leg and thrown on the back of a Chevy. It's like being rushed to the hospital and told you're gonna make it when you laid beside individuals whose lives were brutally taken.

The guilt of being alive is heavy."

Continues here: In her own words: Pulse nightclub shooting survivor Patience Carter

 

[Mischief]

Doing courageous things:

Yes. There was also at least one off duty policeman there, armed, working security. People did what they could to save lives.

 

[FortyTwo]

The vast majority of homicides, approximately 90%, are committed by men. Of mass-shootings, 98% are perpetrated by men. Men also commit the majority of other violent crimes. I think addressing hyper-masculinity is a good start.

Yes, it is, but it's not enough. This needs to stop now. Trying to gradually roll out change like this while still allowing people to buy weapons like this is hopelessly idealistic.

I know you understand this, so it's incredibly frustrating to me that you don't support this type of legislation when it's the only thing that can stop mass shootings.

When the Civil Rights movement was in full swing, did changing public opinion help abolish segregation? Or did people fighting tooth and nail for legislation preventing the policy from being implemented help? Educating against hypermasculinity and stopping endorsing it as a society is a huge task. Like, world-changingly huge. We absolutely need to focus on doing so, because hypermasculinity is stupid as **** and yes, it gets people killed. But before we can change peoples' opinions we absolutely need to be doing something on a policy level about this.

 

[ledboots]

So how do we address hypermasculinity exactly? Legislation? Education? Shaming?

 

[Spang]

So how do we address hypermasculinity exactly? Legislation? Education? Shaming?

Awareness and education.

 

[Spang]

Yes, it is, but it's not enough. This needs to stop now. Trying to gradually roll out change like this while still allowing people to buy weapons like this is hopelessly idealistic.

I know you understand this, so it's incredibly frustrating to me that you don't support this type of legislation when it's the only thing that can stop mass shootings.

I won't be upset if President Obama signs a bill into law that bans the weapons of choice for the mass shootings that get the most media attention. However, during the 15-hour filibuster for gun control, 48 people were shot throughout the U.S. A ban on so-called assault weapons would not have prevented most, if not all, of those shootings. It won't prevent the majority of gun violence, or other violent crimes, largely committed by hyper-masculine men.

 

[FortyTwo]

I won't be upset if President Obama signs a bill into law that bans the weapons of choice for the mass shootings that get the most media attention. However, during the 15-hour filibuster for gun control, 48 people were shot throughout the U.S. A ban on so-called assault weapons would not have prevented most, if not all, of those shootings. It won't prevent the majority of gun violence, or other violent crimes, largely committed by hyper-masculine men.

Of course we need to destroy hypermasculinity. Of course banning assault weapons won't stop all murders. I agree with you wholeheartedly there. If we as a (national or global) society are to restrict violence to the greatest possible degree, we basically need to dismantle our government, our economy, and just about goddamn everything, and rebuild it from the ground up.

My main point is: we need everyone to start lobbying for gun control legislation. Not sitting by and not being upset if it happens, but actively encouraging legislative change. I hate to pull this card, so to speak, and I avoid doing so 99% of the time because I don't want to come across as trying to shut down argument without any sort of discussion beforehand, but I firmly believe that by not doing so you're not being a very good ally to the LGBT community. (Based on some of what you've said in the past I'm assuming you're straight - if this isn't true I apologize, that changes everything about my response except for the core argument.)

 

[Spang]

I can't argue with you. If you think I'm being a bad ally, then I'm being a bad ally.

 

[Moll Flanders]

I'll repost this.... please sign & pass it on. Sign the petition: Ban Assault Weapons Now

I agree with you. It won't prevent all gun violence in the US, but if it stops some of these type of awful mass shootings then you would think it would be a good idea.

 

[ledboots]

I agree with you. It won't prevent all gun violence in the US, but if it stops some of these type of awful mass shootings then you would think it would be a good idea.

Does anyone honestly think that if someone wants to terrorize and murder people, that he won't just use a wooden hunting rifle (with larger caliber, more deadly bullets than an AR 15)? Or a handgun or a bomb or biological or chemical weapons?

 

[beancounter]

Does anyone honestly think that if someone wants to terrorize and murder people, that he won't just use a wooden hunting rifle (with larger caliber, more deadly bullets than an AR 15)? Or a handgun or a bomb or biological or chemical weapons?

Thanks LB, I was going to make a similar post!

Using a knife, a person may only be able to kill 5 people, but if you're 1 of the 5, the fact that fewer people were killed is a moot point. And like LB said, there a many other ways to kill large numbers of people.

Addressing the underlying causes as to why someone would want to kill others is the best way to get to the route of the problem (no, not the easiest), and in the current political environment, the only realistic way.

 

[ledboots]

It just seems rushed, and like a symbolic gesture. Oh, we did something constructive like banned a weapon, so addressing the cause of the shooting gets lost in the congress's embarrassing infighting during debate, and then the nauseating self-congratulatory back slapping after the bill's passage. Or the revolting public gloating and crowing if the bill is defeated.

You know, there are a lot of people mourning in Orlando. Nervous in nearby St Petersburg, Florida, where the longstanding Pride Week celebrations have begun. Big events like concerts, the parade, street fairs, even yesterday's Rays' baseball game, are taking place through next weekend.

The timing is tragic, but because of the Pulse tragedy, will bring more attention to the events in the city. It will be a shame if this platform is wasted on discussing rifle bans. Address the cause: the hate, the rage, the lunacy, I don't know what to label it. But when the rifle jammed in the nightclub bathroom , the young woman with bullets in her leg, hiding, heard him curse and then just take out the pistol instead and continue shooting.

 

[Moll Flanders]

I don't think that is all that should be done, but if the more dangerous weapons were banned I would assume that would mean there would be less mass shootings overall? As far as I understood, when you had a ban there in the 90s there were less mass shootings.

Addressing the underlying causes as to why someone would want to kill others is the best way to get to the route of the problem (no, not the easiest), and in the current political environment, the only realistic way.

Why can't you do both? Have stricter gun laws as well as trying to address some of the problems in American society? Surely the laws would bring about societal change as well, like with drink driving laws.

 

[beancounter]

I don't think that is all that should be done, but if the more dangerous weapons were banned I would assume that would mean there would be less mass shootings overall? As far as I understood, when you had a ban there in the 90s there were less mass shootings.

Why can't you do both? Have stricter gun laws as well as trying to address some of the problems in American society? Surely the laws would bring about societal change as well, like with drink driving laws.

Because the NRA stops any and all legislation regardless of the content, validity or usefulness of it on the grounds that "it's one small step in the process of taking away our guns". And this gets it's members all riled up to put pressure on their representative who caves in and does the NRA's bidding.

 

[Spang]

Don't forget the gun manufacturers. They're the ones profiting from all this bloodshed.