Religion Personal Religious Affiliation, Then and Now

[Dropkick]

Think of it this way. You can't change your ethnic background or your race, but you can change your religion whenever you want.
Judiasm is a religion, because you can become part of it or leave it on a whim.

Also, I added a couple words to you statement (in red) that I think should help clarify things.

beancounter, I don't think you're getting the part that's confusing me.

Examples:
Scottish = ethnicity, descent, and/or race
Protestant = religious affiliation
vs.
Jewish = ethnicity, descent, and/or race (but only through the mothers' line - a rule that doesn't apply to any other line of ethnicity, descent, and/or race that I know of)
Jewish = religious affiliation (unless you're not a follower of Judaism, in which case it means the above)

So if you're Jewish either your mother was Jewish, or you've converted to Judaism. It's not a very precise term as it can mean more than one thing.

 

[beancounter]

beancounter, I don't think you're getting the part that's confusing me.

So if you're Jewish either your mother was Jewish, or you've converted to Judaism. It's not a very precise term as it can mean more than one thing.

But those are all man-made rules. You can still be Jewish if your father was Jewish and your mother wasn't. (without having to convert)

Personally, I have never had anyone ask me which one of my parents was Jewish as a way to validate whether or not I was a true Jew.

For example, I am not Jewish. I am an Atheist with ancestors that identified themselves as Jews.

I think a big part of the confusion is that there are people out there that insist that Judaism is an ethnicity, which it is not.

 

[Joe]

There is an excellent movie now out on DVD, Philomena starring Judi Dench. Philomena was a young Catholic girl who lived in Ireland and got pregnant out of wedlock sometime in the 1950s, I guess. Anyway, she was taken into some home for unwed girls run by the Catholic church, where her medical care and the costs of caring for her and her child were to be paid for for four years, during which time Philomena had to work at manual labor to repay the costs of her care, in lieu of paying a 100 pound fee to be released. During this time, the child was given away by the Church to some rich Americans, who paid a fee (or made a donation) for adopting the child. Philomena signed (or was forced to sign) some sort of document not only releasing the child for adoption but promising never to inquire about the child, where or to whom the child would be adopted, etc., etc.

The story begins some years later when Philomena decides she must locate her child, who would have just turned 50. She contacts a news organization, which assigns a journalist to help in and chronicle the search.

I mention this film here because it accurately reflects (in my opinion) the strange admixture of kindness, cruelty and greed involved in the institutional Roman Catholic church. Philomena is shamed by the nuns for engaging in sex and some of them behave cruelly to her, by acts of commission and omission, on the rationalization that Philomena must suffer to "atone" for her sin--that pain is good for her. One nun is particularly bitter toward her because the nun has taken a vow of chastity and bitterly resents the fact that Philomena has not only had sex but enjoyed it. God forbid!!!!!

The whole crazy "sex madness" of the Catholic Church is very well illustrated in this wonderful film, based on a true story.

 

[FortyTwo]

beancounter, I don't think you're getting the part that's confusing me.

Examples:
Scottish = ethnicity, descent, and/or race
Protestant = religious affiliation
vs.
Jewish = ethnicity, descent, and/or race (but only through the mothers' line - a rule that doesn't apply to any other line of ethnicity, descent, and/or race that I know of)
Jewish = religious affiliation (unless you're not a follower of Judaism, in which case it means the above)

So if you're Jewish either your mother was Jewish, or you've converted to Judaism. It's not a very precise term as it can mean more than one thing.

Look, I don't know why you're confused. In order to become Jewish, you just have to confirm your doubleprime-ethnicity on your mother's side with your twice-removed third cousin, on a Monday, avoiding the consumption of anything more than 1/3 green-colored, consulting the fifth-to-last word of the second-to-last novel you read or non-primetime TV show you watched and judging its tonal quality, averaging together five repetitions of the word from your own mouth to make a more accurate judgment (six repetitions if you were born under any sign after Libra), apply that tonal quality to the entire work, write an essay on the work, and then check to see if the thirtieth word of the essay is positive or negative in its connotations, with a positive result indicating acceptance into the Jewish faith.

It's like that for all religions. Obviously.

 

[KLS52]

Philomena...great movie.

 

[PTree15]

I was raised Catholic, basically because my Methodist mom converted to Catholicism to marry my Irish Catholic dad. But I ditched all forms of organized religion years ago for reasons too many to detail here.

 

[Dropkick]

But those are all man-made rules. You can still be Jewish if your father was Jewish and your mother wasn't. (without having to convert)

Personally, I have never had anyone ask me which one of my parents was Jewish as a way to validate whether or not I was a true Jew.

For example, I am not Jewish. I am an Atheist with ancestors that identified themselves as Jews.

I think a big part of the confusion is that there are people out there that insist that Judaism is an ethnicity, which it is not.

Yes, Judaism is the Jewish/Hebrew religion it's not an ethnicity.

I've been looking into it and so far this is what I've found:

Being Jewish is supposed to actually indicate tribal affiliation and not ethnicity. Just like an American Indian can be either Crow, Blackfoot, or Salish.

Jewish tribal affiliation passes through the Mother's line* or through joining the tribe (Sammy Davis Jr. was Jewish).

The confusion comes from it's also being used to represent ethnicity or religious preference.

From what I've read using it to indicate ethnicity (vs. tribal affiliation) is an incorrect use.

However just to confuse things, using it to indicate religious preference is an accepted and correct usage - ignoring that you can be a member of the tribe and therefore Jewish but still not be a follower of Judaism.

I think this comes from the rule that you have to embrace Judaism in order to join the tribe, but you can be born into the tribe and keep your membership no matter what your religious leanings.



*Being Jewish passing through the father is a newer practice and is not accepted by many Jewish factions.

 

[beancounter]

Yes, Judaism is the Jewish/Hebrew religion it's not an ethnicity.

I've been looking into it and so far this is what I've found:

Being Jewish is supposed to actually indicate tribal affiliation and not ethnicity. Just like an American Indian can be either Crow, Blackfoot, or Salish.

Jewish tribal affiliation passes through the Mother's line* or through joining the tribe (Sammy Davis Jr. was Jewish).

The confusion comes from it's also being used to represent ethnicity or religious preference.

From what I've read using it to indicate ethnicity (vs. tribal affiliation) is an incorrect use.

However just to confuse things, using it to indicate religious preference is an accepted and correct usage - ignoring that you can be a member of the tribe and therefore Jewish but still not be a follower of Judaism.

I think this comes from the rule that you have to embrace Judaism in order to join the tribe, but you can be born into the tribe and keep your membership no matter what your religious leanings.

*Being Jewish passing through the father is a newer practice and is not accepted by many Jewish factions.

But those are all man-made rules. There are people out there with all sorts of rules/requirements that try to make their religion an "exclusive club". But religious belief is an idea in your head. No one can stop you from believing and/or practicing your chosen faith. Just because you may not be able to do it publically, or in a special building, doesn't change that fact.

 

[Dropkick]

But those are all man-made rules. There are people out there with all sorts of rules/requirements that try to make their religion an "exclusive club". But religious belief is an idea in your head. No one can stop you from believing and/or practicing your chosen faith. Just because you may not be able to do it publically, or in a special building, doesn't change that fact.

Somehow I think we ended up having 2 different conversations at the same time.
I was talking about how the term Jewish is confusing as it means many things and two of them somewhat contradict each other. And I think you're back on the original conversation of religious belief.

 

[Moll Flanders]

I wasn't sure about the term Jewish either to be honest, I've only met three (I think) Jewish people in my life and I'm not even sure if they meant they were religious or not and I felt too awkward to ask them.

 

[beancounter]

Somehow I think we ended up having 2 different conversations at the same time.
I was talking about how the term Jewish is confusing as it means many things and two of them somewhat contradict each other. And I think you're back on the original conversation of religious belief.

Sorry for the confusion. Jewish means you follow the religon of Judaism ,period. Any other meaning is the result of people trying to make it more than that it actually is. Like I mentioned before, some people try to make it an ethnicity ,which it isn't, thus the confusion.

 

[beancounter]

I wasn't sure about the term Jewish either to be honest, I've only met three (I think) Jewish people in my life and I'm not even sure if they meant they were religious or not and I felt too awkward to ask them.

Jewish means you follow Judaism. Some people who aren't religious will often just call themselves Jewish (if their family is Jewish) to avoid further questions.

For example, even though I'm an Atheist, I identify myself as Jewish insome situations to avoid complications.

Another example....non practicing Catholics are still considered Catholics, so why is it hard to see that non practicing Jews are still Jews?

I hope I answered the question you were asking, aas I seem to have misunderstood DK, and I don't mean to sound so blunt, but it just seems so obvious to me.

There iis nothing special about Judaism. Its just another religion.

 

[Moll Flanders]

Personally, I have never had anyone ask me which one of my parents was Jewish as a way to validate whether or not I was a true Jew.

For example, I am not Jewish. I am an Atheist with ancestors that identified themselves as Jews.

Jewish means you follow Judaism. Some people who aren't religious will often just call themselves Jewish (if their family is Jewish) to avoid further questions.

For example, even though I'm an Atheist, I identify myself as Jewish insome situations to avoid complications.

Another example....non practicing Catholics are still considered Catholics, so why is it hard to see that non practicing Jews are still Jews?

I hope I answered the question you were asking, aas I seem to have misunderstood DK, and I don't mean to sound so blunt, but it just seems so obvious to me.

There iis nothing special about Judaism. Its just another religion.

I didn't ask you a question but you seem to be contradicting yourself. If you think being Jewish is a purely religious belief then why would you call yourself Jewish if you are an atheist? Call yourself whatever you like obviously just that what you wrote doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

My point in my earlier post was that I don't know if the people I knew who were Jewish meant that they were of the Jewish religion or born into a Jewish family.

 

[Second Summer]

Another example....non practicing Catholics are still considered Catholics, so why is it hard to see that non practicing Jews are still Jews?

Personally, I think I prefer "culturally Lutheran Christian" over "non-practising Lutheran Christian". "Non-practising" makes it sound like I still identify on some level as Lutheran Christian.

 

[beancounter]

If you think being Jewish is a purely religious belief then why would you call yourself Jewish if you are an atheist?

Like I said above, I call myself Jewish to avoid complications. To fully understand this, try identifying yourself as an Atheist in front of others, and see what happens.

My point in my earlier post was that I don't know if the people I knew who were Jewish meant that they were of the Jewish religion or born into a Jewish family.

Why doe the distinction matter?

 

[Moll Flanders]

Like I said above, I call myself Jewish to avoid complications. To fully understand this, try identifying yourself as an Atheist in front of others, and see what happens.

I live/have lived in very multicultural parts of England and there are quite a few non-religious people and atheists here so that isn't an issue. The UK seems to be becoming more and more secular IMO.

Why doe the distinction matter?

It doesn't matter to me, I was just saying that I felt awkward asking the few Jewish people I have met because I thought it might be nosy or I might sound ignorant.

 

[Calliegirl]

I've only identified myself as Jewish when talking about my family and family history. I would never say I was Jewish when talking about religion as I'm not a follower of Judaism. I don't volunteer that I'm Atheist, but if the subject comes up, I don't pretend to follow any religion. Yep, people look at you like you just grew another head, but I'm not going to lie to make someone else happy. If they're uncomfortable with it, then it's their issue, not mine.

 

[ledboots]

Personally, I think I prefer "culturally Lutheran Christian" over "non-practising Lutheran Christian". "Non-practising" makes it sound like I still identify on some level as Lutheran Christian.

I am Buddhist now, but Catholics consider me a lapsed Catholic since I had all the sacraments. I like the word "lapsed" though, so sometimes I identify as that.

 

[kibbleforlola]

Except Judaism is also an ethnicity. You can't change that just because you don't want to be identified ethnically ( but you're ok with being identified culturally?) as Jewish.

Fun fact: people with "ethnic" sounding names are much less likely to get a call back on their resume. This is most true for African Americans, but it is true for people with Jewish sounding names as well.

As for identifying as atheist, noting will happen. I'm from the Deep South, I know. At most, they give you the stink eye and/ or try to convert you. But that would happen no matter what, even other stains are suspect, if they don't adhere to the "right" flavorof xtianity.

 

[ledboots]

Is it an ethnicity? The Torah describes the Jews as a nation, but in the old sense of a nation, a group with a common goal. I have also heard Jewish people say that they are a family, the family of Jews.