US Politics 2023

[Lou]

I can't imagine the GOP voting for any Democrat in this current climate. The party politics won't allow it unfortunately.

I know what you mean, but I Can Imagine it.
It's like if it gets so bad that they have no choice.
Also they don't All have to vote for a Dem. I'm a little foggy on the math but I think if all the dems vote one way, than they just need 4 or 5 republicans to vote their way.
You might wonder if there are 4 or 5 Republicans that have enough backbone to vote that way and there isn't. Maybe 2. but there are a lot of terrible corrupt Repubulicans who have little conscious and no loyalty. I'm thinking the Democrats could either bribe them or blackmail them.
How about something like, we won't run anyone in your district if you vote for Jeffries.
Or the first 5 guys to vote for Jeffeies gets a million dollars each.

 

[PTree15]

I know what you mean, but I Can Imagine it.
It's like if it gets so bad that they have no choice.
Also they don't All have to vote for a Dem. I'm a little foggy on the math but I think if all the dems vote one way, than they just need 4 or 5 republicans to vote their way.
You might wonder if there are 4 or 5 Republicans that have enough backbone to vote that way and there isn't. Maybe 2. but there are a lot of terrible corrupt Repubulicans who have little conscious and no loyalty. I'm thinking the Democrats could either bribe them or blackmail them.
How about something like, we won't run anyone in your district if you vote for Jeffries.
Or the first 5 guys to vote for Jeffeies gets a million dollars each.

Yes, the GOP has a very slim majority, but I don't think there are even four or five who have the backbone to go with the Dems. They are still too afraid of Trump's power and influence when it comes to their reelection.

 

[Second Summer]

I understand that the US has the usual domestic distractions with mass shootings, debt ceilings, the Trump/MAGA circus and so on.

However, I'm curious whether the brewing war in the Middle East is getting any airtime at all? After the large-scale terrorist attack earlier in the month against Israel by the Hamas group, the Israeli armed forces are now breaking international law by cutting off water and power to the besieged population in Gaza while simultaneously bombing the infrastructure to rubble without reasonable consideration to civilian lives, and they have now also launched a ground invasion. (The Gaza strip is one of the more densely populated areas on the planet due to the many refugees who were forcibly removed from their homes during the creation of Israel in 1948, as well as later expansion.) Let's face it, Israel is committing war crimes again, probably at a worse scale than we've seen in a very long time.

Meanwhile, president Biden has sent not one but two aircraft carriers to protect Israel's ongoing slaughter from attack by enraged neighbouring countries. US weapons that were meant for Ukraine are now being diverted to Israel. The war could easily spread to Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Iran ...

I don't expect US Republicans to show any backbone because we already know they don't have one. But where are the Democrats on this? Are they happy to just sit by and let Biden continue supporting the slaughter while the entire region is about to explode?

 

[silva]

I understand that the US has the usual domestic distractions with mass shootings, debt ceilings, the Trump/MAGA circus and so on.

However, I'm curious whether the brewing war in the Middle East is getting any airtime at all? After the large-scale terrorist attack earlier in the month against Israel by the Hamas group, the Israeli armed forces are now breaking international law by cutting off water and power to the besieged population in Gaza while simultaneously bombing the infrastructure to rubble without reasonable consideration to civilian lives, and they have now also launched a ground invasion. (The Gaza strip is one of the more densely populated areas on the planet due to the many refugees who were forcibly removed from their homes during the creation of Israel in 1948, as well as later expansion.) Let's face it, Israel is committing war crimes again, probably at a worse scale than we've seen in a very long time.

Meanwhile, president Biden has sent not one but two aircraft carriers to protect Israel's ongoing slaughter from attack by enraged neighbouring countries. US weapons that were meant for Ukraine are now being diverted to Israel. The war could easily spread to Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Iran ...

I don't expect US Republicans to show any backbone because we already know they don't have one. But where are the Democrats on this? Are they happy to just sit by and let Biden continue supporting the slaughter while the entire region is about to explode?

Goes like this:
THERE HAVE BEEN OVER 1400 ISREALIS KILLED IN THE PAST 3 WEEKS!!!
there were over 7000 Palestinians killed in retaliatory strikes

democrats are tripping over themselves to condemn ANY mention of Israel's war crimes

 

[Lou]

Yes, the GOP has a very slim majority, but I don't think there are even four or five who have the backbone to go with the Dems. They are still too afraid of Trump's power and influence when it comes to their reelection.

Yes, there may not even be two. However, the fact they many of them are spineless hypocritical selfish pricks I kind of think that 3 or 4 of them could jump ship for the right incentives. Although the Democrats might think it's better not to get into the pig sty and waddle around in the muck.
There is also some risk of it backfiring and blowing up in their face.

And as the Democrats have reminded us on numerous occasions, it's not their responsibility of fix problems made by Republicans.

 

[Lou]

I understand that the US has the usual domestic distractions with mass shootings, debt ceilings, the Trump/MAGA circus and so on.

However, I'm curious whether the brewing war in the Middle East is getting any airtime at all?

Yes it is. but it's been tough. For the last couple of days the media has been focused on another mass shooting, the Israeli offensive, the latest trump trial, The house speakership, the UAW strike, the crypto trial. Not to mention the World Series and Taylor Swift.

bombing the infrastructure to rubble without reasonable consideration to civilian lives, and they have now also launched a ground invasion.

I'm not sure " without reasonable consideration" is a fair word to use. I do sympathize with the Palestinians but I also feel like the sooner the Israelis defeat Hamas the better it will be for the region as a whole.

It's a complicated situation that makes my head spin and my heart sick. I know its not fair for me to reduce it to just a few sentences but the the sentence that resonates most strongly with me is:
Hamas refuses to recognize Israel's right to exist and has done nothing but ruin any chance of peace between Israel and the Palestinian people

 

[Second Summer]

I'll try not to ruin the thread, so this will hopefully be my only reply on this topic.

Goes like this:
THERE HAVE BEEN OVER 1400 ISREALIS KILLED IN THE PAST 3 WEEKS!!!
there were over 7000 Palestinians killed in retaliatory strikes

democrats are tripping over themselves to condemn ANY mention of Isreals war crimes

Thanks - that confirms my fears, I guess!

I'm not sure " without reasonable consideration" is a fair word to use. I do sympathize with the Palestinians but I also feel like the sooner the Israelis defeat Hamas the better it will be for the region as a whole.

I suppose it depends what media coverage you're getting whether you think they take precautions to protect civilians. And it is still the case that the US mainstream media is heavily biased in favour of the Israeli narrative. But the casualty numbers speak volumes on their own, even if those numbers are somewhat uncertain - unless of course you think most of those 7000 are Hamas fighters.

I also do not think you can really defeat Hamas militarily because Hamas is only a symptom of the disease brought on by decades of Israeli occupation, land-grabs, oppression, carelessness, deliberate cruelty and racism. Yes, you can probably kill everyone who is a Hamas member, and you can try to make Gaza an even more tightly controlled prison, but the hatred against Israel will remain and probably only grow stronger in the process due to all the collateral damage.

It's a complicated situation that makes my head spin and my heart sick. I know its not fair for me to reduce it to just a few sentences but the the sentence that resonates most strongly with me is:
Hamas refuses to recognize Israel's right to exist and has done nothing but ruin any chance of peace between Israel and the Palestinian people

Agreed, and that is probably true, but the series of right-wing Israeli governments over the last few decades have done exactly the same thing. In fact, Nethanyahu was caught on tape bragging to settlers that he deliberately sabotaged the Oslo peace accords. And Israel has also never recognised Palestine's right to exist, despite what was the original UN partition plan and Palestine being recognised by 120 countries around the world at this point.

Anyway, perhaps one of the most serious longer-term problems for the US (and Europe/the West) in relation to this is that their credibility as beacons of freedom and justice is now pretty much eroded away. Developing countries will look elsewhere for role models - for example to India, China and other BRICS countries.

 

[beancounter]

So, 1,000 intentionally murdered Israel citizens isn't a war crime? but the unintentional death of 7,000 Palestinians is.

And justifying, excusing or downplaying the slaughter of Israeli civilians by mentioning how the Israel government has treated the Palestinians is just deplorable.

Nothing can excuse or justify it. Nothing.

Israel doesn't randomly target civilians. They attack areas that their intelligence indicates as containing Hamas assets.

Just because Hamas places people (human shields) in areas that they know Israel will target, doesn't make those peoples death Israel's fault.

It's the fault of Hamas for placing them there.

Such as hospitals

IDF shares proof of Hamas terror base built under main Gaza hospital

“Hamas wages war from hospitals,” the IDF spokesperson stressed.

www.jpost.com

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/28/middleeast/hamas-tunnels-gaza-intl/index.html

And it's impossible to tell Hamas from a Palestinian civilian. Hamas knows this and uses it to garner international sympathy.

oh, and talk about hospitals - It doesn't look like it was Israel that bombed it...

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/18/middleeast/gaza-hospital-explosion-israel-wwk-explainer-intl/index.html

So, what's the solution? Should Israel just pull back and live with bombs being tossed at them endlessly. Should they open the doors and let Hamas in who has stated in no uncertain terms that their objective is to kill all Jews?

If their objective was to destroy their oppressors, why didn't they attack the Israel government or military?...

Cowards and terrorist intentionally target civilians.

 

[PTree15]

I suppose it depends what media coverage you're getting whether you think they take precautions to protect civilians. And it is still the case that the US mainstream media is heavily biased in favour of the Israeli narrative. But the casualty numbers speak volumes on their own, even if those numbers are somewhat uncertain - unless of course you think most of those 7000 are Hamas fighters.

That is changing somewhat. I have noticed a shift in the coverage with more interviewers (at least on TV) asking Israeli officials about the plight of the Palestinians in Gaza in an effort to hold Israel accountable for breaking international humanitarian law. One of my Jewish friends is beside herself with the coverage because she sees the criticism of Israel's actions as antisemitism, which is on the rise in the U.S. Her feeling is that Israel is surrounded by countries that don't believe it should exist, and one of Hamas's goal has been the destruction of Israel. Other media have opined that Israel can't fall on the safety/security excuse to justify its actions in Gaza. Hamas also has been accused of breaking the international rules of war by using its own people has human shields by setting up weapons caches and operations under hospitals and schools.

I also do not think you can really defeat Hamas militarily because Hamas is only a symptom of the disease brought on by decades of Israeli occupation, land-grabs, oppression, carelessness, deliberate cruelty and racism. Yes, you can probably kill everyone who is a Hamas member, and you can try to make Gaza an even more tightly controlled prison, but the hatred against Israel will remain and probably only grow stronger in the process due to all the collateral damage.

Hatred of Jews has existed for thousands of years, unfortunately, and I do agree that this course of action isn't going to do anything to lessen that hate. I don't know what the answer is to stopping the hate/distrust. It runs so deep on both sides.

Agreed, and that is probably true, but the series of right-wing Israeli governments over the last few decades have done exactly the same thing. In fact, Nethanyahu was caught on tape bragging to settlers that he deliberately sabotaged the Oslo peace accords. And Israel has also never recognised Palestine's right to exist, despite what was the original UN partition plan and Palestine being recognised by 120 countries around the world at this point.

Neither side wants to recognize the other's right to exist, but yes, the right-wing Israeli governments have not helped as they haven not been in favor of a two-state solution. But then again, neither is Hamas.

Anyway, perhaps one of the most serious longer-term problems for the US (and Europe/the West) in relation to this is that their credibility as beacons of freedom and justice is now pretty much eroded away. Developing countries will look elsewhere for role models - for example to India, China and other BRICS countries.

China is hardly a beacon of freedom and justice. And Trump did a number on the U.S. reputation in that regard.

 

[Sax]

My sympathies have generally sided with the Palestinians in this long-running conflict. Israel is an apartheid state repressing and encroaching upon a much less powerful people. But I'm not really moved by the criticism of Israel over Palestinian civilian deaths. Israel simply has no choice but to degrade Hamas' capacity for further attacks as much as possible. The fact that Hamas has distributed their resources to ensure maximum civilian deaths and bad press for Israel doesn't change that.

It feels like the criticism isn't even rooted in the belief that Israel has a viable alternative, one that would achieve their immediate security needs with significantly fewer civilian casualties - rather it's just a way to reinforce the narrative of Israel as oppressor and Palestinians as victims.

Edit: to be clear I'm talking about the direct casualties of Israeli airstrikes on suspected Hamas targets, not the humanitarian crisis being inflicted by Israel which is totally appalling. And as Israel's campaign unfolds I expect there will be a lot I strongly oppose.