Saudi women and the right to drive.

[mlp]

You know what happens in societies where women have been oppressed when a sizeable portion of the male population suddenly disappears? Women step in to do the work that men used to do. That's what's happened historically, when men have gone off to war. When they came back, the men took over control again, but in every instance I can think of, society ended up having shifted closer to equal rights for women, even with such relatively short term absences.

I don't see hope for the women in countries like Saudi Arabia, because the punishment for daring to protest even a little is so severe.

A couple of years ago, I read a rather harrowing eye witness account of a 13 year old girl who was gang raped. She dragged herself to the authorities, who promptly arrested her, and she was found guilty of adultry for *allowing* herself to be raped. She was sentenced to death by stoning. Crazy with terror, she was dragged into an arena filled with the men folk of the town, and was buried up to the neck, after which twenty or so men designated with the honor of carrying out the execution proceeded to stone her. When they were confident she was dead, they dug her up. Only she wasn't dead - in fact, she regained consciousness. She she was reburied up to her neck and stoned some more.

Tell me, please, what education is going to change this. It hasn't changed for four thousand or more years. These are not societies cut off from the rest of the world.

 

[mlp]

I'll tell you what - if I get the power over that little button that makes people vanish, I'll hold off for a while and ask for volunteers to go to S.A. and a few other countries to "educate" the people there. I gather there will be a couple of eager volunteers from VV.

 

[Freesia]

what about the women left behind who depended upon and loved these men? do you think these women would suddenly happily frollick outside to their cars, unburdened by their chains which had been put on them by their fathers, brothers, sons, etc, and drive merrily around in some kind of middle eastern utopia?

Yes.

 

[Freesia]

I'll tell you what - if I get the power over that little button that makes people vanish, I'll hold off for a while and ask for volunteers to go to S.A. and a few other countries to "educate" the people there. I gather there will be a couple of eager volunteers from VV.

maybe Das Nut could go over and explain to the religious leaders there that women in his country have full rights and that women in Saudi Arabia should too. He can see what kind of reaction he gets.

 

[mlp]

maybe Das Nut could go over and explain to the religious leaders there that women in his country have full rights and that women in Saudi Arabia should too. He can see what kind of reaction he gets.

I am sure that they will see the light as soon as they get over the shock of learning that women in some parts of the world have equal rights - after all, that will come as such a complete shock to them,.

 

[Freesia]

Yep. Das Nut will convince them .

 

[das_nut]

You know what happens in societies where women have been oppressed when a sizeable portion of the male population suddenly disappears? Women step in to do the work that men used to do. That's what's happened historically, when men have gone off to war.

The numbers here aren't backing you up. You're comparing a situation like WWII, where 20-25% of the men went off to fight, and part of that void was filled with prisoners of war, with a society where most of the men vanish.

You're also ignoring the mental pain you'd be causing. What makes you think that Saudi women aren't going to be distressed over losing their male members of their families?

A couple of years ago, I read a rather harrowing eye witness account of a 13 year old girl who was gang raped. She dragged herself to the authorities, who promptly arrested her, and she was found guilty of adultry for *allowing* herself to be raped. She was sentenced to death by stoning. Crazy with terror, she was dragged into an arena filled with the men folk of the town, and was buried up to the neck, after which twenty or so men designated with the honor of carrying out the execution proceeded to stone her. When they were confident she was dead, they dug her up. Only she wasn't dead - in fact, she regained consciousness. She she was reburied up to her neck and stoned some more.

Tell me, please, what education is going to change this. It hasn't changed for four thousand or more years.

What makes you think that the rights of women haven't ebbed or flowed in the past four millennium in Saudi Arabia? After all, even the hijab likely doesn't go back four thousand years. (Well, not in Saudi Arabia, it was an import from other regions).

There's a lot to condemn about modern Saudi culture, especially with the intolerance and bigotry Wahhabism has brought. But before you start to advocate fixes, try learning a bit about the history and the culture.

Cultures can change. To pretend otherwise is to ignore history. Just look at most of the history of the West - we've made much progress towards equal rights. Saudi Arabia can do the same. After all, Saudi Arabians are human beings, same as us. They can learn to embrace human rights, the same as we did. To pretend otherwise is to engage in pseudo-white-man's-burden thinking.

 

[Freesia]

After all, Saudi Arabians are human beings, same as us. They can learn to embrace human rights, the same as we did. To pretend otherwise is to engage in pseudo-white-man's-burden thinking.

Yes they can learn to embrace rights for women. But they dont want to and they have made that quite clear.

Playing the race card is a bit silly too. OMG how racist we all are for not liking the rapes and stoning! And way to assume that we are white anyway.

 

[das_nut]

Yes they can learn to embrace rights for women. But they dont want to and they have made that quite clear.

Considering the (limited) movements that Saudi Arabia has to increase the rights of women, what makes you think they don't want to change at all?

Can you even name some of the ways that women's rights in Saudi Arabia are changing for the better?

You would probably be even shocked to hear that the King has acknowledged that women do drive in Saudi Arabia (in the rural areas, mostly), and that he's for recognizing the right of women to drive.

Playing the race card is a bit silly too. OMG how racist we all are for not liking the rapes and stoning! And way to assume that we are white anyway.

Please google pictures of Saudi Arabians. They are Caucasians.

What I was referring to is the philosophy, frequently used during colonialism, that the ignorant native people lacked the mental capacity to be able to govern themselves in a civilized manner, and therefore need European's help. That was pretty screwed up. Why are you so eager to go down that road again?

I agree that rapes, stoning, and public beheadings are abhorrent. But I do not believe that the Saudis lack the capacity to be able to learn. You seem to think so. Why is that?

And if the Saudis can't learn, what does your solution of removing all the men accomplish? Saudi women will just raise the next generation to think the same way.

 

[Freesia]

Considering the (limited) movements that Saudi Arabia has to increase the rights of women, what makes you think they don't want to change at all?

Can you even name some of the ways that women's rights in Saudi Arabia are changing for the better?

You would probably be even shocked to hear that the King has acknowledged that women do drive in Saudi Arabia (in the rural areas, mostly), and that he's for recognizing the right of women to drive.



Please google pictures of Saudi Arabians. They are Caucasians.


What I was referring to is the philosophy, frequently used during colonialism, that the ignorant native people lacked the mental capacity to be able to govern themselves in a civilized manner, and therefore need European's help. That was pretty screwed up. Why are you so eager to go down that road again?

I agree that rapes, stoning, and public beheadings are abhorrent. But I do not believe that the Saudis lack the capacity to be able to learn. You seem to think so. Why is that?

And if the Saudis can't learn, what does your solution of removing all the men accomplish? Saudi women will just raise the next generation to think the same way.

OMG, googling pictures of Saudi Arabians right now! I had no idea what they looked like, I thought they had 8 heads and were purple, but apparently they only have one head? What would I do without your suggestions?

I found an article about what is happening in Saudi Arabia, yes it is true that they are making great progress there. The King has given more power to the most conservative religious clerics and fired more moderate clerics who suggested women should have rights! And also reduced women's rights to work outside the home. So I guess that is progress! It is 2012 after all.... we have been waiting so long for progress there and I guess our prayers have been answered!!

http://www.relativityonline.com/home/back-in-time/#comments

 

[K-II]

If we're going to just wish everything better it might as well be that they'll wake up tomorrow and repent. 'Cause you know, if you had that power, it'd be a bit sadistic to just annihilate all these people instead.

 

[das_nut]

Freesia: You've googled one article. Do you think you're qualified to believe that Saudi Arabia cannot change, or can only change for the worse?

If we're going to just wish everything better it might as well be that they'll wake up tomorrow and repent. 'Cause you know, if you had that power, it'd be a bit sadistic to just annihilate all these people instead.

That's my point. Eliminating half a population of 28 million based solely on gender would be an abomination.

 

[led.boots]

Freesia: You've googled one article. Do you think you're qualified to believe that Saudi Arabia cannot change, or can only change for the worse?



That's my point. Eliminating half a population of 28 million based solely on gender would be an abomination.

Oh for heaven's sake, Das Nut, it is obvious no one can actually vaporize all the Saudi men magically, so why sit here bemoaning their pretend deaths? It may be difficult for you to empathize with the helplessness women with rights feel for those who are oppressed. A luck of the draw, I was born female in the US in the 20th century. The modern west is pretty much the only time and place in history where men have allowed women equality. So excuse us if we pretend-kill men in a country that doesn't allow women to drive, talk to male non-relatives, feel the sun on her face, or fulfill her dreams. We can feel these oppressed women as ourselves, our sisters, our daughters.

 

[mlp]

Oh for heaven's sake, Das Nut, it is obvious no one can actually vaporize all the Saudi men magically, so why sit here bemoaning their pretend deaths? It may be difficult for you to empathize with the helplessness women with rights feel for those who are oppressed. A luck of the draw, I was born female in the US in the 20th century. The modern west is pretty much the only time and place in history where men have allowed women equality. So excuse us if we pretend-kill men in a country that doesn't allow women to drive, talk to male non-relatives, feel the sun on her face, or fulfill her dreams. We can feel these oppressed women as ourselves, our sisters, our daughters.

Jeeze - a voice of reason. And here I was, amusing myself with visualizing how worked up Das Nut would eventually get on behalf of oppressed men everywhere, such as those poor guys in S.A., Somalia, etc., oppressed by the pretend magical deaths sontemplated by a woman in the U.S.

 

[Pickle Juice]

Jeeze - a voice of reason. And here I was, amusing myself with visualizing how worked up Das Nut would eventually get on behalf of oppressed men everywhere, such as those poor guys in S.A., Somalia, etc., oppressed by the pretend magical deaths sontemplated by a woman in the U.S.

Well you do know that wishing for that magic button is just as great a sin as actually being a part of the crowd who stoned that little girl to death for letting herself get raped.

 

[kazyeeqen]

I'd disappear everyone. Then we wouldn't keep hurting each other all the time.

 

[das_nut]

Oh for heaven's sake, Das Nut, it is obvious no one can actually vaporize all the Saudi men magically, so why sit here bemoaning their pretend deaths?

Don't worry, I'm not bemoaning their pretend deaths.

I'm bemoaning the sort of thinking that would wish for millions of deaths.

This thread is very likely not going to change Saudi Arabia one iota. But perhaps, just perhaps, someone will realize that there could be something wrong when one casually wishes for millions to die and doesn't see anything wrong with that statement.

It may be difficult for you to empathize with the helplessness women with rights feel for those who are oppressed.

Perhaps you care to share how failure to endorse thinking that millions should die due to their gender is failure to empathize. Because quite frankly, I don't see it.

Well you do know that wishing for that magic button is just as great a sin as actually being a part of the crowd who stoned that little girl to death for letting herself get raped.

I did not say that nor imply it. I'm just pointing out that wishing for millions of people dead is not a productive mentality when it comes to solving problems. It's just engaging in more dehumanization. The solution to the dehumanization of one group in one culture is not going to be solved by the dehumanization of the other group by a different culture.

 

[mlp]

I'm not dehumanizing them. I'm simply killing them. That effectively keeps them from subjugating, torturing and killing the women in their country.

I would also have killed Hitler and all of his active supporters, had I lived at that time and had had the power to do so. They too were all too human.

 

[mlp]

But I'm really interested in your education alternative, Das Nut. Please tell us more about your plan. How many generations do you think it's going to take before women in these countries can be raped or have an affair without being subjected to the death penalty? How many generations before the men think it's preferable to let schoolgirls run out of a burning building without being covered from the tops of their heads to the tips of their toes rather than being locked in to burn to death? How many generations before the men kill their daughters for wearing nail polish or speaking to a young man? How many generations before the women have control over whether they get an education, a job, who and when they marry, whether they can go out into public without a male relative?

 

[das_nut]

I'm not dehumanizing them. I'm simply killing them.

You're killing them based on their gender and where they happen to live. If you think all Saudi males are worthy of death then yes, that's dehumanizing them.

I would also have killed Hitler and all of his active supporters, had I lived at that time and had had the power to do so. They too were all too human.

The National Socialist party got about one third of the vote in Germany. You're casually talking about killing over twenty million people. Just because they happen to be in Germany and took the active step of voting for Hitler's party. Of course, we should also include everyone during the war who had a job that contributed to the war effort (be it enlisted in the military directly, or manufacturing war materials, etc). I bet you could easily tens of more millions to your death toll. Rather horrifying, IMO.

But that's the past.

What do you feel about people today? Do the Israelis deserve to all die because of their treatment of the Palestinian people? Or do the Palestinians all deserve to die because of their support for terrorist groups? Quite curious about your answer.