US Significant changes-split from"Why men are afraid of plant based meat"

[Nekodaiden]

Indian Summer and/or any mods who may look at this thread:

I hope you will have the decency to not delete these posts. If anything were to be deleted, it should have been done when these hateful viewpoints were first posted. Since no action was taken, I'ved spent time responding, and those responses should stand.

I also hope this. I stand by my viewpoints, my position does not come from hatred, although I do understand that part of the indoctrination demands that it be so. I have also recorded this thread as evidence that if I am banned because of the bullying going on here, it will be known that if one comes to veganforums.org, you will be subject to dismissal on the grounds that your social/political/religious/philosophical views that have nothing to do with veganism are nontheless subject here, and you will conform, be forced to leave or pushed out.

 

[Mostly Random Dude]

I stand by my viewpoints, my position does not come from hatred, although I do understand that part of the indoctrination demands that it be so.

I don't have a carrot in this fight, but that sounds a little insincere. The fact that you have any strong view means that the subject somehow bothers you. In this case, you'd have a position you were gay (justifiably so) or you dislike gay people for some reason (which it certainly appears like to my uneducated eye).

Anyway, let's figure out the connection to the subject. For example, I have invested in an early stage vegan-meat startup, will that make me gay?

 

[Nekodaiden]

I don't have a carrot in this fight, but that sounds a little insincere. The fact that you have any strong view means that the subject somehow bothers you. In this case, you'd have a position you were gay (justifiably so) or you dislike gay people for some reason (which it certainly appears like to my uneducated eye).

I don't dislike people who chose to have homosexual relations. If it's between consenting adults, as far as I'm concerned, that's their business. That doesn't change my view on the naturalness/morality of the act, and how it may impact on larger society, especially as it grows. Since I do not believe that it is an inborn trait (like eye color, skin color, etc), and that it is primarily a psychological phenomenon (that is to say, the attraction) that has a whole host of factors (including, but not limited to, abusive/domineering father figures or mothers, sexual abuse as a child, a very bad relationship with the opposite gender etc)...I do not think it is moral to hoist it upon impressionable children to condition them to think it is normal and natural, and that to disagree with these positions automatically makes one a hateful bigot out to bash gays. However, this is so often how it is presented in media focus. I alluded to this earlier in this thread. Matthew Shepherd media coverage vs Jesse Dirkhising media coverage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Jesse_Dirkhising#Media_coverage . The media bias is clear and just as clear to me is that people are affected by that bias.

Anyway, let's figure out the connection to the subject. For example, I have invested in an early stage vegan-meat startup, will that make me gay?

Seriously? This question sounds insincere. Of course not.

 

[Mischief]

You mean statistically? I don't have the research at hand, or am aware of any such research, which may or may not exist. But sure, I'll tell you one from my own 'bias'. Matthew Shepherd. Huge story in the national news. Made all sorts of headlines. Around the same time the violence against Shepherd happened, the story of a pre-teen boy was seduced, raped and chocked to death with his own underwear by 2 homosexual men. This story didn't get any national coverage. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Jesse_Dirkhising#Media_coverage

In the year between the date Matthew Shepherd was murdered and the date Jesse Dirkhising was murdered, how many rape/murders were committed by heterosexual men? I bet you never even wondered about that, did you? I also bet you can't name even one of the girls and women murdered by their rapists that year, because (a) their murders didn't make the national media and (b) they are irrelevant to you. I further bet yoy never decried the lack of national media attention to those murders, because the issue never has been about the disparity of media attention given to Matthew Shepherd's case versus that of Jesse; the point has been to portray homosexual men as dangerous deviants whose violence is ignored by the media. You don't give a flying fig when the violent deviance of heterosexual men is ignored by the same media.

I believe this is a false equivalence and have already alluded to that in an earlier response.

Because you "believe" that homosexuality is a choice and not an inborn trait?

So, please instruct the class why homosexuality is a choice but heterosexuality isn't.

Uh, I didn't state that Michelle is a man, although it's possible.

Why does this statement not surprise me. (Don't bother to answer; that was a rhetorical question.

This is a straw man.

Actually, it was a putdown of your assertion that Obama is responsible for the increased acceptance of trans individuals. I could have asked you for any evidence for your assertion, but you wouldn't have been able to provide any.

My objection is similar to my objection to homosexuality. I reject the idea it is natural/normal and that it should be pushed because we have been taught to believe that not doing so results in violence.

Where are you finding all these people pushing you to become homosexual?!?! I've never encountered a single one, and I suspect I've spent more years on this planet than you have.

Sometimes it does result in violence, and I do not condone that. That being said, in prison a large amount of hate and violence is exercised against convicted child molesters by other prisoners. Perhaps on this basis we should normalize pedophilia? I think the argument here is much the same and relies on a strictly emotional response that is pushed by pro-homosexual groups just like the pro-Israel groups bring up the holocaust.

I'm having a bit difficulty in trying to decipher your thinking here, but I think what you 're trying to say is that the only reason a heterosexual person would accept homosexuality as just as "normal" and nondeviant as heterosexuality is to avoid violence being perpetrated against homosexuals. Is that right?

Well, that's a novel way of trying to justify your bigotry in light of others' acceptance.

Speaking just for myself, I don't care what other consenting adults do with each other in the privacy of their homes. It's no skin off my nose. Their relationships don't affect my relationships. It would be weird to think they did.

I really am at a loss to understand why you are so invested in other people's sexuality. Have you ever questioned that about yourself? (Again, rhetorical question. I have no interest in exploring the deep dark corners of your psyche.)

No they aren't, but I'm not going to go into a long list here. Men's rights groups (talking here from within heterosexual marriage and divorce) would not exist if they were equitable as you claim.

Actually, maintenance and child support are determined pursuant to established formulas based on the divorcing parties'respective incomes and expenses, w/o adjustment for the sex of each party. Likewise, property divisions are made based on statutory guidelines that don't factor in sex. But don't take my word for it; look it up. It's not as though I was a practicing attorney and knew anything about this stuff.

Men's rights groups exist because when someone has advantages over others, when their advantages are suddenly replaced by equality with those same others, the formerly advantaged feel as though they are being treated unfairly. It's a human enough reaction. Many are able to see that equality does not equal disadvantage; others choose to be whiny two-year-olds about it.

 

[Nekodaiden]

In the year between the date Matthew Shepherd was murdered and the date Jesse Dirkhising was murdered, how many rape/murders were committed by heterosexual men? I bet you never even wondered about that, did you? I also bet you can't name even one of the girls and women murdered by their rapists that year, because (a) their murders didn't make the national media and (b) they are irrelevant to you. I further bet yoy never decried the lack of national media attention to those murders, because the issue never has been about the disparity of media attention given to Matthew Shepherd's case versus that of Jesse; the point has been to portray homosexual men as dangerous deviants whose violence is ignored by the media. You don't give a flying fig when the violent deviance of heterosexual men is ignored by the same media.

I think this is the only quote I find worthy of responding to.

Nope, I never wondered because murder is common. It happens every day, somewhere. Nope, I never decried the lack of (national) media attention on a common occurrence, why should I?

The Matthew Shepherd case vs Jesse Dirkhising case however, is a striking example of media focus - particularly of national media, to promote one view over the other. Why should the Matthew Shepherd case get a media frenzy and the Jesse Dirkhising case get near media silence and 0 national attention?

The answer is obvious: A clear agenda to promote the idea that people who do not agree with homosexuality as normal/inborn/natural/just about love etc as the kind of people who would murder the likes of Matthew Shepherd. To promote anger to those people, and to promote sympathy for gay victims (while ignoring the victims OF gays, like Jesse), and on a very non-specific and general level having to do with associated attitudes, not on a case by case basis. This is why Jesse's story got near media silence and 0 National attention. It simply didn't fit their agenda.

And I might add that it has worked beautifully. If one hears the words "gay (or homosexual)" and "violence" what does the average person think of? Naturally, violence against homosexuals. Not violence by homosexuals against other homosexuals, or violence by homosexuals against heterosexuals, or abuse by homosexuals of children - no no - they think of violence by heterosexuals against homosexuals.

All because of media focus (not just news media, but much of popular media as well).

Too hard to comprehend?

Now, I'm done responding to you in this thread. So type away. I might respond to others, but not you.

 

[Hog]

The modern emphasis on political correctness conversation makes me nervous because I am anything but politically correct. I can not help it because I am a little autistic. Even the term Social Justice Warrior would seem like a compliment to me.

I have been accused of being a racist and a sexist many times throughout my life. These terms usually seem like a cheap power play to me. The problem is that everything is offensive to someone. Here are some examples:

I am a racist because I talk too much about animal rights and not enough about human rights.
I am sexist because I said that boys do not seem to like to play with dolls.
I am also sexist because I never introduced my sons to dolls when they were growing up.
I was insensitive when I said, "Global warming may or may not be real. But, based on our consumption patterns in the United States, nobody seems to care."
I was called a conservative extremist because I talked about the value of learning to work hard when we are young.

Nekodaiden made some controversial statements. Still, we should not dismiss him as being a racist or a sexist. That seems like the easy way out. We should instead seek to understand him.

Everybody deserves a little compassion. If I offended someone, then I am sorry.

 

[Mischief]

The modern emphasis on political correctness conversation makes me nervous because I am anything but politically correct. I can not help it because I am a little autistic. Even the term Social Justice Warrior would seem like a compliment to me.

I have been accused of being a racist and a sexist many times throughout my life. These terms usually seem like a cheap power play to me. The problem is that everything is offensive to someone. Here are some examples:

I am a racist because I talk too much about animal rights and not enough about human rights.
I am sexist because I said that boys do not seem to like to play with dolls.
I am also sexist because I never introduced my sons to dolls when they were growing up.
I was insensitive when I said, "Global warming may or may not be real. But, based on our consumption patterns in the United States, nobody seems to care."
I was called a conservative extremist because I talked about the value of learning to work hard when we are young.

Nekodaiden made some controversial statements. Still, we should not dismiss him as being a racist or a sexist. That seems like the easy way out. We should instead seek to understand him.

Everybody deserves a little compassion. If I offended someone, then I am sorry.

If you think anyone called him a racist or a sexist in this thread, you didn't read the thread.

 

[Andy_T]

*Mod Post*

Sorry that this dumpster fire of a thread has only now fully come to our shared attention.
Locked until further notice until we have time to wade through the posts and decide what to do.