Ukraine

A politburo requires a single party continuously running things, that doesn't appear to be the case in the EU.

More continuously run by a loose coalition of all major parties in Europe Das.

The coalition being bound by the mutual usefullness of the EU's labyrinthine gravy train of executives and committees for the following purposes:

1. A nice little retirement income for their good but spent forces.

2. A usefull dumping ground for the terminally useless who, for various reasons, can't just be sacked.

The recent TV programme 'Nigel Farage: Who are you?' (although, for obvious reasons, highly Nigel Farage centric) provides some interesting insights into that.
 
It was only after England and France declared war on Germany that Germany went West.
So in your map of the world, is Norway to the east of Germany? Is the United States in Eastern Europe? Because Germany declared war on them both without needing to.
I think you will find the invasion of Norway & Denmark (Operation Weserübung) happened on April 9, 1940. (74 years ago today.) And the German declaration of war against the U.S. was made on December 11, 1941. Whereas Britain and France declared war on Germany on September 3, 1939. So RF1 is correct that it was only after Britain and France declared war that Germany started to invade countries to the west.
 
So in your map of the world, is Norway to the east of Germany? Is the United States in Eastern Europe? Because Germany declared war on them both without needing to.



Mainstream sources aren't claiming that the Russians secretly replaced the Ukrainian population with robotic ducks (even if it may be true). Why won't people believe this?
You said he decided to attack. Germany never attacked the United States. I recall reading that England and Germany were both trying to occupy Norway. It was more about Norway's iron ore than anything if the material I have read is correct.
 
Speak loudly, but carry a Wiffle Ball bat.

NATO, UN, etc. have lost their nerve, and the world has taken note. I think it's pretty safe to say Russia is going to do whatever the hell it wants, and other countries that might have more or less been in check up until recently will follow their lead. Way to go peace mongering.:starshower:
 
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A brawl erupts during Ukraine's Parliament session yesterday. :(
apyhyva5.jpg
 
You said he decided to attack. Germany never attacked the United States. I recall reading that England and Germany were both trying to occupy Norway. It was more about Norway's iron ore than anything if the material I have read is correct.

Germany was the nation that declared war upon the United States. Not vice versa. It was after Pearl Harbor - even though Hitler's treaty with the Japanese didn't require him to come to Japanese aid if Japan initiated the war.

Considering that the US was the 800lb gorilla of WWII, according to your logic, Germany should have never declared war. But it did.
 
Germany was the nation that declared war upon the United States. Not vice versa. It was after Pearl Harbor - even though Hitler's treaty with the Japanese didn't require him to come to Japanese aid if Japan initiated the war.

Considering that the US was the 800lb gorilla of WWII, according to your logic, Germany should have never declared war. But it did.
I'm talking about Germany putting troops into the United States. There's no evidence anywhere that Hitler had planned this. My original statement was Hitler wanted to go eastward before any countries declared war on Germany. You're not refuting this statement at all, so I have no idea what we're arguing about.

While we're on this subject, I've read before that many of Hitler's enemies were ready to get rid of him prior to the conflict with Czechoslavakia. Germany was not prepared for war in 1938. England being England, they decided to get involved. If things hadn't gone perfectly, it's very possible war could have been avoided altogether. By simply doing nothing, England could have done more for world peace than they ever did by getting involved. Another victory for isolationism. It's sad how little you hear about this.
 
I recall reading that England and Germany were both trying to occupy Norway. It was more about Norway's iron ore than anything if the material I have read is correct.
I don't think there is evidence that the British were actually attempting an invasion, though they had vague plans for an attack on the iron ore transport / infrastructure, but they were never realized because the Brits wanted to avoid war with Norway, and potentially antagonizing the other Scandinavian countries. The iron ore was actually Swedish, which was shipped out of the Norwegian town Narvik. And on 8. April 1940, incidentally the day before the German invasion, the British were mining the fjord outside Narvik to put an end to the iron ore shipments. This was in violation of Norwegian sovereignty and neutrality. The German invasion had been planned months in advance.
 
I don't blame Germany for wanting to become powerful via massive land grabs. It was trendy at the time, all the cool countries were doing it. A nation can't survive in this world without either having direct control of a long list of key strategic resources or entering into alliances with nations that have the global leverage to get it for them in exchange for favors. The British empire was one of the most powerful the world has ever known. Germany wanted their piece of the pie, fair enough. The genocide was a separate issue, and rest assured the world didn't give a damn until it became politically correct to give a damn. Until well into the war, even China was taking in Jewish refugees while the U.S. was turning them away. But again, separate issue. Germany wanted to become a superpower, they gave it a pretty good shot (the Allies suffered vastly more casualties than the Axis), but we managed to painstakingly make that 2nd front before the Soviets were conquered, resulting in a war that was no longer realistically winnable for Germany. That said, there isn't a nation in the world which doesn't have a closet full of skeletons. But the crimes perpetrated by both Germany and Japan during WWII were not just uniquely severe, but well organized and intentional (I personally feel that Japan was much worse than Germany in that regards, but for whatever reason we never really found the state of mind to empathize with China's struggles).

That's all irrelevant as far as the reasoning behind the wars, though. The same is true today. Crimea and Ukraine are important not because of the challenges its citizens are facing, but because they occupy a key spot in the strategic struggle between Russia and the European Union. Neither side is any better or worse for wanting the upper hand. Again, that's just how you survive in this world. And for those who think I'm an *** hole for saying their struggles aren't relevant, I'll emphasize that I'm not saying I don't personally care, I'm simply saying that's not what is driving the decisions being made right now. Every time the U.N. drops off a can of donated food in Africa, a village gets slaughtered to prevent that food from tipping the balance of power. But who cares, right? Caring would mean getting directly involved, and we'd rather keep donating the food to BS ourselves into believing we're changing something (even though we're actually just contributing to the slaughter by doing so) and focus our active attention on arbitrary situations that just so happen to occupy the headlines, preferably involving people we can relate to more. We may even go get stoned while we're pretending to care, knowing full well that doing so means supporting a criminal economy that is leading to the torture and murder of thousands per year. Sorry, I get tired of people sometimes :p

Anyway, here's what's relevant:

Russia decided it was in its interests to move on Crimea. The world said "Hey, we're gonna label that as an illegal move but, just so you know, we have no interest in getting into a fight over it, and can assure you that there will be no consequences if you choose to do so. That said, please play nice and don't do it, k?" Russia was like "Lol" and started deploying troops. Now it's in a position to possibly continue moving through the rest of Ukraine, and the world is like "Omg Russia, that's so mean! Please stop it, or else we'll say more bad things about you!" And Russia is like yeah, whatever, and will basically do whatever it wants because the rest of the world doesn't have the fortitude to make a stand.

In other words, who really cares what everything thinks of the situation in Ukraine? Russia knows by now that the world has grown gutless and complacent, and we can rest assured they're going to do whatever they feel is in their best interests. If that means annexing Crimea or continuing into other parts of Ukraine, they will do so unimpeded.

To add icing to the cake, through our overuse of sanctions in dealing with rogue nations we're in the midst of forcing alliances between those rogue nations. To counter our economic moves, Russia has now signed a trade agreement with North Korea. This will not only seriously undermine our ability to control North Korea through control of its economy and resources, it will create a situation in which engaging in military action against North Korea would interfere with Russia's interests. We saw how that worked out when we were trying to negotiate with Syria (How's their chemical weapons disarmament coming along, by the way? Is Russia still on board with that, or did we just lose that fight as well?) Once North Korea fully realizes the magnitude of this situation, they will ultimately come to the conclusion that, following in the footsteps of Russia, they can basically do what they want without fear of reprisal. They know we won't engage them militarily as long as they are buddies with Russia, and sanctions just became meaningless since they found an alternate source for their strategic resources in the form of a ****** off Russia.

Seriously, this stuff just keeps repeating over and over. Replace the names of a few of the countries involved, and it could be pretty much any century. I know most of you aren't exactly war mongers, but the cold hard truth is that the second you make it known to your potential adversaries that you are unwilling to engage in violence, you create a situation in which violence is inevitable for the simple reason that they no longer have an answer to the question of "or else what?".
 
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We may even go get stoned while we're pretending to care, knowing full well that doing so means supporting a criminal economy that is leading to the torture and murder of thousands per year.

This is the main reason I've never used an illegal drug; I don't want to contribute to that system. However, I guess that's a topic for another thread.

Also, while I agree that the reasons for the various Allies to enter into WWII had nothing to do with the atrocities being committed by Germany and Japan, to now retroactively state that it would have been "better" to maintain an isolationist stance is to ignore/discount what was done. (I know you're not advocating that isolationist stance.) (I also agree that the U.S. record with respect to providing sanctuary to Jews fleeing Nazi Germany was truly reprehensible.)
 
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I guess genocide doesn't bother you much.
See, if the Allies had done nothing, Germany never would have occupied Western Europe. I'm not sure how genocide could have been committed if they're only occupying a small portion of Europe. Unless there is evidence that Germany was planning to occupy the entire continent from the beginning that I'm not aware of. Interventionalism only causes more suffering for the most part.
 
I'm talking about Germany putting troops into the United States. There's no evidence anywhere that Hitler had planned this. My original statement was Hitler wanted to go eastward before any countries declared war on Germany. You're not refuting this statement at all, so I have no idea what we're arguing about.

At the point where Hitler declared war on the US, he was already off his rocker.

And that's what I'm saying: Hitler declared war on the US. The US did not declare war on Germany.

While we're on this subject, I've read before that many of Hitler's enemies were ready to get rid of him prior to the conflict with Czechoslavakia. Germany was not prepared for war in 1938. England being England, they decided to get involved. If things hadn't gone perfectly, it's very possible war could have been avoided altogether. By simply doing nothing, England could have done more for world peace than they ever did by getting involved. Another victory for isolationism. It's sad how little you hear about this.

So Germany annexed Austria and the Sudetenland and invaded other countries because the UK may have gone to war with them?

What is this, Stormfront's Guide to History, where Hitler was just merely misunderstood?
 
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At the point where Hitler declared war on the US, he was already off his rocker.

And that's what I'm saying: Hitler declared war on the US. The US did not declare war on Germany.



So Germany annexed Austria and the Sudetenland and invaded other countries because the UK may have gone to war with them?

What is this, Stormfront's Guide to History, where Hitler was just merely misunderstood?
You do realize Hitler was Austrian, correct? It may have had something to do with it. He wanted to unite the German-speaking people. You don't have to be a sympathizer to realize he had real goals. I've acknowledged many of his bad qualities. His scorched earth policy would have caused amazing suffering, and that alone would be enough for me to be turned off by a person. You obviously know very little about me as a person.
 
Hitler was an Austrian, of course. (As the joke says, the Austrian's greatest trick was claiming Hitler was German and Mozart was Austrian.)

But do you know of the circumstances of the Anschluss? The mechanisms of the Austrian Nazi party that resulted in an annexation that the people opposed?
 
A referendum is being held in Crimea in a week's time. The result is going to be overwhelming support for independence from Ukraine and instead to become a part of Russia. Realistically, I don't think there is much anyone can do about that. The rest of Ukraine will then probably align itself with the western countries, and these countries will have to split the bill between them. (Of course, there are majorities of Russian-speakers in other parts of Ukraine as well, so there is also the risk that those parts will be "liberated".)
The "liberation" has begun, it seems. I think this will probably become much more violent than the Crimea take-over. Well, it might already be.

Pro-Russian militants continue to occupy government buildings in eastern Ukraine, ignoring a deadline to leave or face eviction by Ukrainian forces.

Ukraine's interim president promised military action if government buildings were not given up by 06:00 GMT.

But correspondents said the Russian flag was still flying over the police station seized in Sloviansk.
Read more: Ukraine crisis: Pro-Russian occupiers ignore deadline (BBC News, 14. April 2014)
 
If Ukraine values its sovereignty, it should have attacked without mercy the second that deadline passed ignored. Not doing so will embolden other would-be militants once they realize they can take a stand without fear of reprisal. Pacifism in this case is going to lose them their country.
 
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If Ukraine values its sovereignty, it should have attacked without mercy the second that deadline passed ignored. Not doing so will embolden other would-be militants once they realize they can take a stand without fear of reprisal. Pacifism in this case is going to lose them their country.

I still think the US and EU should have been stricter on Russia if they valued world peace. But I only base that on Russia's repeated de facto and de jure annexation of neighboring regions.
 
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If they're not willing to enforce their deadlines (been seeing a lot of this lately), they might as well just bypass the transitional violence and hand the keys over to Russia right now. The end result will be the same. Ukraine will cease to exist as a nation.

This "red line" garbage is a joke. Either find the fortitude to back up your threats (that goes for Ukraine, U.S. in regards to its relations with Russia, the European Union, NATO, UN, and all the other paper tigers out there), or stop making them and accept the inevitable without wasting valuable leverage on false ultimatums in the process. Not only is nothing being solved in Ukraine, but the rest of the world is seeing the message loud and clear. Do whatever you want, there will be no consequences. Watching this situation play out is frustrating.