Veganism, utilitarianism, edge-cases

[Col]

Possibly.
But honestly, like I said...nuance and trying to be sensible about my stance. Especially seeing as I am the only "vegan" I know.
I don't worry about every bottle of wine or beer because quite honestly, life is too short. I buy vegan wine for myself at home, and think the beer I buy is vegan, but in the end, it's a minor issue. And AFAIK no beer states "vegan" on the label, and not all wines that are vegan do.
I am contributing more to animal suffering buying almonds than I am to having a glass of wine that *might* have used a non-vegan filtering agent.

And if I am out on business, I will be joining in. Sure, I eat the plant-based meal, but these things are usually drink-centric. I'll stick to the wine and beer and simply not worry about if some fining agent back in the filtering stage wasn't vegan, because the alternative is to get into a discussion about "why the **** are you drinking water?"

Oh and the "consuming" the non-vegan bread. I don't any more. Although I don't think it's not vegan to do so in that circumstance.

Well done doing what you can,
I am Self employed and I will speak out when questioned at work I feel it may make a minority try make me look out of place but as a protected belief in my country I can be thick skinned and I only live once like everybody else. Best wishes at work

 

[Matteo]

Possibly.
But honestly, like I said...nuance and trying to be sensible about my stance. Especially seeing as I am the only "vegan" I know.
I don't worry about every bottle of wine or beer because quite honestly, life is too short. I buy vegan wine for myself at home, and think the beer I buy is vegan, but in the end, it's a minor issue. And AFAIK no beer states "vegan" on the label, and not all wines that are vegan do.
I am contributing more to animal suffering buying almonds than I am to having a glass of wine that *might* have used a non-vegan filtering agent.

And if I am out on business, I will be joining in. Sure, I eat the plant-based meal, but these things are usually drink-centric. I'll stick to the wine and beer and simply not worry about if some fining agent back in the filtering stage wasn't vegan, because the alternative is to get into a discussion about "why the **** are you drinking water?"

Oh and the "consuming" the non-vegan bread. I don't any more. Although I don't think it's not vegan to do so in that circumstance.

Oh, I misunderstood. I thought you meant the alcohol itself wasn't vegan - not the filtering process. Put simply, I do think these, along with other situations, like eating non-vegan food accidentally given to you, are arbitrary and don't really matter but I do believe it's better to avoid these situations for the things I said before (such as normalizing vegans doing things that are arbitrarily wrong).

 

[g0rph]

Oh, I misunderstood. I thought you meant the alcohol itself wasn't vegan - not the filtering process. Put simply, I do think these, along with other situations, like eating non-vegan food accidentally given to you, are arbitrary and don't really matter but I do believe it's better to avoid these situations for the things I said before (such as normalizing vegans doing things that are arbitrarily wrong).

Sometimes I check on barnivore, but often the beers are not there.
With wines it's tough. There is no legal compulsion to put "vegan" on the label. So, although some wines do have it, not all those that don't are "not vegan".

Of course if the alcohol was specifically not vegan in ingredients, I wouldn't consume it...eg. I was in a bar in Denmark and one of the beers was brewed using milk...

 

[ewomack]

I no longer worry much about the term "vegan," because it's become a word that means so many different things to so many different people, I'm not sure whether I know what it means any more. Regardless, I try to be as "vegan" as I can. I do eat meat once in a great while, usually for dinners cooked by someone in my family. I may also give in once in a great while on a vacation, but this rarely happens. Otherwise, 99% of the time I eat no meat. It doesn't even sound appealing to me anymore. We keep none in our house and when we eat out it's pretty much always to a 100% plant-based place (we went to one just this afternoon). Our state fair, once a bastion of meat products, has even introduced vegan options over the past few years, which has been incredible. So it's become easier. I seem happier overall not putting pressure on myself, because being a "true vegan" (in whatever sense that means) is very difficult. In the end, I'm "mostly vegan," but I know that term offends many vegans, so I've stopped using it and instead saying "I don't eat a lot of meat," which is an exaggeration, because I eat almost none. But I find that I can "get away" with not eating meat in mixed company by saying "I'm cutting down on meat" rather than saying "I'm vegan." My meat-heavy work lunches have become much more comfortable after that discovery.

 

[g0rph]

I no longer worry much about the term "vegan," because it's become a word that means so many different things to so many different people, I'm not sure whether I know what it means any more. Regardless, I try to be as "vegan" as I can. I do eat meat once in a great while, usually for dinners cooked by someone in my family. I may also give in once in a great while on a vacation, but this rarely happens. Otherwise, 99% of the time I eat no meat. It doesn't even sound appealing to me anymore. We keep none in our house and when we eat out it's pretty much always to a 100% plant-based place (we went to one just this afternoon). Our state fair, once a bastion of meat products, has even introduced vegan options over the past few years, which has been incredible. So it's become easier. I seem happier overall not putting pressure on myself, because being a "true vegan" (in whatever sense that means) is very difficult. In the end, I'm "mostly vegan," but I know that term offends many vegans, so I've stopped using it and instead saying "I don't eat a lot of meat," which is an exaggeration, because I eat almost none. But I find that I can "get away" with not eating meat in mixed company by saying "I'm cutting down on meat" rather than saying "I'm vegan." My meat-heavy work lunches have become much more comfortable after that discovery.

Whilst your stance is better than 95% of people, I do struggle to understand it

Work meals... I demand 100% plant-based. If there isn't an option I take fries or salad.
Once I realised the horror, the idea of eating another sentient being became repulsive... Even though, taste and physical pleasure-wise I know I would enjoy it. I still miss rib-eye, 2.5 years later.

 

[Lou]

Whilst your stance is better than 95% of people,

Aw c'mon. At least 97.5%
At my school, 97% and above was an A+. That's almost perfect. and no one is perfect. So you are basically concerned about just 1%.

And remember... Perfect is the enemy of good.

 

[Col]

Aw c'mon. At least 97.5%
At my school, 97% and above was an A+. That's almost perfect. and no one is perfect. So you are basically concerned about just 1%.

And remember... Perfect is the enemy of good.

My school had some bullies,
I met one of them two days ago and he genuinely apologised and told me of good work he has done since. Now we both have peace.
The school’s policy was not zero tolerance which would have been simpler.
The message of non violence is simple;
The message of veganism is simple.

As no one is perfect we then can continue to try
I respect the honesty expressed here and the will to communicate.

 

[silva]

I no longer worry much about the term "vegan," because it's become a word that means so many different things to so many different people, I'm not sure whether I know what it means any more. Regardless, I try to be as "vegan" as I can. I do eat meat once in a great while, usually for dinners cooked by someone in my family. I may also give in once in a great while on a vacation, but this rarely happens. Otherwise, 99% of the time I eat no meat. It doesn't even sound appealing to me anymore. We keep none in our house and when we eat out it's pretty much always to a 100% plant-based place (we went to one just this afternoon). Our state fair, once a bastion of meat products, has even introduced vegan options over the past few years, which has been incredible. So it's become easier. I seem happier overall not putting pressure on myself, because being a "true vegan" (in whatever sense that means) is very difficult. In the end, I'm "mostly vegan," but I know that term offends many vegans, so I've stopped using it and instead saying "I don't eat a lot of meat," which is an exaggeration, because I eat almost none. But I find that I can "get away" with not eating meat in mixed company by saying "I'm cutting down on meat" rather than saying "I'm vegan." My meat-heavy work lunches have become much more comfortable after that discovery.

That's a win for all involved. I truly hate reading someones positive response to a vegan recipe that admits they aren't vegan and then all the hard azz vegans get all nasty.
If we really want people to stop eating animals why not be more concerned about normalizing plant foods in incremental ways. I still remember the first year going vegan, I had to think about so many foods. Every Mexican dish I liked because of cheese, I chose pizza places based on cheese.
It takes time for the brain to adjust to new normals

I have to say, I cannot understand eating meat that rarely! It very quickly became putrid to me, though cheese did not. By now I can at least not miss cheddar, but I still miss pizza mozz. Vegan mozz is always either sticky, flavorless, or just solid (solid is what I find to be best)

 

[veganfortheanimalss]

To become 100% vegan, we need to move out of the earth biosphere and settle in another planet and farm only synthetic food. This is good as an end goal or a direction to move towards but right now it's unnecessary. Right now almost all animal killings are for food, wool, leather and such likes. We need to first move towards a cruelty free plate before anything else.
Pick up feathers, it's not unvegan. Same for eating dairy or meat which is gonna be thrown away. Try your utmost to feed it to your animals, as a last resort eat them. Throwing them away is actually less vegan than eating it as it took some amount of death to get your pure vegan food on your plate. This is what differentiates us from the religious morons. For us reducing our imprint on death and suffering must be the primary goal. Everything else is next.

 

[veganfortheanimalss]

Don't agree with you eating animals out of choice. If there are affordable alternatives available then go for them.
Don't agree with killing ants and wasps. Find alternatives. I always do.
Animals should not be exploited for pleasure. Unavoidable exploitation should be rewarded with till the death bed care. Else all exploitation is bad.

 

[g0rph]

Aw c'mon. At least 97.5%
At my school, 97% and above was an A+. That's almost perfect. and no one is perfect. So you are basically concerned about just 1%.

And remember... Perfect is the enemy of good.

Nah.
Struggling with cookies and cakes I get. Eating steak...nope. I'd say it's less than 95%.

The only thing I can imagine is that it isn't for ethical reasons. I don't allow my ethics to relax "every now and then". Because if I did, they wouldn't be my ethics.

 

[ewomack]

Whilst your stance is better than 95% of people, I do struggle to understand it

Nah.
The only thing I can imagine is that it isn't for ethical reasons. I don't allow my ethics to relax "every now and then". Because if I did, they wouldn't be my ethics.

I totally understand and I don't completely like the situation myself. But I give myself credit for doing the best I can in the situation that I'm in.

Plus, where does one draw the line? Where do the arguments for ethics end? Should I criticize people for not taking on a Jain or Fruitarian lifestyle, which, arguably, conforms to an even higher ethical standard regarding suffering? One could respond that there are medical issues with that lifestyle, but many people would say the same thing about veganism (I don't agree with those arguments). I once had a nurse at a medical clinic tell me to my face "it's hard to stay healthy without eating meat." Is veganism "enough?" Who sets the standards? Where are the lines of argument? I do think Jains and Fruitarians are holding up a higher ethical standard than vegans, and I would honestly like to think I could get there, but I would never argue that people should take that lifestyle on. The point isn't who is "right," but who owns the standards and where should those boundaries sit? Ethics has always been drawn with fuzzy lines.

 

[veganfortheanimalss]

I totally understand and I don't completely like the situation myself. But I give myself credit for doing the best I can in the situation that I'm in.

Plus, where does one draw the line? Where do the arguments for ethics end? Should I criticize people for not taking on a Jain or Fruitarian lifestyle, which, arguably, conforms to an even higher ethical standard regarding suffering? One could respond that there are medical issues with that lifestyle, but many people would say the same thing about veganism (I don't agree with those arguments). I once had a nurse at a medical clinic tell me to my face "it's hard to stay healthy without eating meat." Is veganism "enough?" Who sets the standards? Where are the lines of argument? I do think Jains and Fruitarians are holding up a higher ethical standard than vegans, and I would honestly like to think I could get there, but I would never argue that people should take that lifestyle on. The point isn't who is "right," but who owns the standards and where should those boundaries sit? Ethics has always been drawn with fuzzy lines.

Jains drink milk(their scriptures allow it) and the old cow is left to die in the streets eating garbage, falling sick, and dying painfully. You dont wanna know what they do with the male calves nor how the cow got pregnant. They are not higher in the ladder. But I respect them for their views...they were telling these vegetarian non-violence views back in 1000BC. How cool is that. It smacks right in the faces of other 'civilised' societies of those times and later ones too who hide their evil behind the excuse, "it's because of the times they did it". Well jains are older and they figured it out how to live in a civilized way, so why couldn't you? They were the vegans of older times and I respect them for that. Also it's much much easier to convert a jain to be a vegan than other religious folks. Also animal agriculture must have been less cruel for the Jains in those times compared to now. Ideally they should convert to veganism but hold on to their old views too much and consume dairy. Unfortunate.
Fruitarians I accept. They don't kill the whole plant.
Currently the line is drawn at intentional avoidable killing of animals.

 

[FredVegrox]

Veganism seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose. If what I choose, as far as reasonably possible, contributes to more suffering, I would seek to avoid that then. But there is the healthiest way to eat, that I learned about rather later than when I came to being vegan, that is good basis for me to just eat food from plants, while I don't eat any of the things not from plants. I draw the line there.

I gave up getting myself animal meat years before I came to being vegan, but I gave up alcohol little more than a couple of years before giving up meat, when I learned that could be better for health, and figured then with what I gave up that I could do that. Actually I have been on this path of giving up more and more, and freeing myself with that.

Christianity is in fact much very favorable to coming to being vegan, you just would not know it from most Christians now. But it is, right from the start in the Bible. Other Christians know some passages that they can argue with against that, but just reading from the Bible, you would find more passages indicating that not using animals is really better. They just don't want to hear that, but this is still true.

 

[FredVegrox]

Consider that there are all these that are shown in the Bible (there really are yet more things in the Bible for it with better understanding).

Proverbs 12:10 should not be ignored. And nothing one would eat should be prepared with having blood in it.

Psalm 50:9-11
God has no need for animals to be killed.

Genesis 1:29, Genesis 2:19, Genesis 6:5-8, Genesis 8:15-17, 20, Genesis 9:1-5, Acts 15:22, 28-29, Romans 8:19, 21-22, Isaiah 11:6-9, Revelation 21:4
God said, "I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed, to you it shall be for food." Yahweh God said "It is not good that man should live alone." Out of the ground Yahweh God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. Then Yahweh saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. So Yahweh said, "I will destroy man who I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air." But Noah found grace in the eyes of Yahweh. Then God spoke to Noah, saying, "Go out of the ark, you, your wife, your sons and their wives. Bring out with you every living thing of all flesh that is with you, that they may abound on the earth, and be fruitful and multiply on the earth." Then Noah built an altar to Yahweh, and offered burnt offerings. God blessed Noah and his sons, and said, "The fear of you and the dread of you shall be on every beast of the earth, on every bird of the air, on all that move on the earth, and all the fish of the sea. Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you, I have given you all things, even as the green herbs. But you shall not eat flesh with its blood. For your lifeblood I will require a reckoning." It pleased the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They wrote this letter: "It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things, that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from what was strangled, and from sexual immorality. Keep yourselves from these, you will do well." The earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it in hope, because the creation itself will also be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. "The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, the calf and the young lion and the fatling together, and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze, their young ones shall lie down together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. The nursing child shall play by the cobra's hole, and the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper's den. They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain, for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of Yahweh, as the waters cover the sea." "God will wipe away every tear, there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."

If Christian or having any interest in Christianity as a vegan, find Creation Care Church on Facebook, and there is communication for it in other places, such as MeWe.