What is the Best Argument Against Veganism?

Yes, this is a common myth that one often hears when people are trying to demonize dairy....especially to vegetarians. The idea, I guess, is to associate dairy with meat...namely veal.

How is that a myth if this is exactly how 99 % of dairy is produced nowadays?

People do not just want milk, they specifically want 99 c milk. (or whatever a liter of milk costs nowadays)

If you want to start producing "sustainable", "fair" or "compassionate" milk and sell it at 9.99 $ a liter, you will find out how many omnis (including vegetarians) are really interested in that, outside of the Indian tribe of the Bishnois, who have been practicing that for hundreds of years.

Best regards,
Andy
 
How is that a myth if this is exactly how 99 % of dairy is produced nowadays?
What is a myth is the idea that cows must continuously give birth in order to produce milk when, in reality, they can produce milk for years without another birth. In terms of how dairy is produced today, I think that gets exaggerated as well, there are a lot of different types of dairy operations and no where near 99% of dairy is from intensive factory farms.

If you want to start producing "sustainable", "fair" or "compassionate" milk and sell it at 9.99 $ a liter, you will find out how many omnis (including vegetarians) are really interested in that
I think many would be interested and there are a number of small family farms that do this sort of thing so there is already a good deal of demand. For example, while modest, Californians voted for better living conditions for hens and this has resulted in a pretty sizable increase in egg prices.

But my point here is that an argument against factory farmed dairy isn't an argument against dairy production in general, I find it a bit dishonest that vegans continuously bring up the worst of the worst as a way to promote their lifestyle. People do notice the hyperbole and it discredits the larger message.
 
What is a myth is the idea that cows must continuously give birth in order to produce milk when, in reality, they can produce milk for years without another birth.

so even if it only took one birth, what happens to the calf if it is male?

I gather that the sex of a calf can be chosen to around 80% reliability, but that would still lead to a lot of male calves...
 
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But my point here is that an argument against factory farmed dairy isn't an argument against dairy production in general, I find it a bit dishonest that vegans continuously bring up the worst of the worst as a way to promote their lifestyle. People do notice the hyperbole and it discredits the larger message.

Flyingsnail, I find it is great that there are "compassionate" dairy farmers, kindly answer the following questions to me:

In those "compassionate" farms that you cite, what is the life expectancy of a dairy cow?
What happens to a dairy cow that no longer can give as much milk as the industry average?
Does she then get to live out her natural lifespan of 20 years? How much milk is taken from the cow? In "Factory Farms", it is common that the amount of milk that is taken from the cow leads to the occurrence of mastitis, a very painful udder inflammation in a high percentage of cows (e.g. 30 % of cows).
What about the calves? Specifically, what happens to the "Bobby calves", the male calves?
Do they get to live out their natural lifespan unmolested? Do they receive a substantial part of their mothers milk as nourishment? (That is how the Indian Bishnoi tribe justifies that they use milk while still trying to be truly compassionate with their animals).

Best regards,
Andy
 
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Flyingsnail, I find it is great that there are "compassionate" dairy farmers, kindly answer the following questions to me:

In those "compassionate" farms that you cite, what is the life expectancy of a dairy cow?
What happens to a dairy cow that no longer can give as much milk as the industry average?
Does she then get to live out her natural lifespan of 20 years? How much milk is taken from the cow? In "Factory Farms", it is common that the amount of milk that is taken from the cow leads to the occurrence of mastitis, a very painful udder inflammation in a high percentage of cows (e.g. 30 % of cows).
What about the calves? Specifically, what happens to the "Bobby calves", the male calves?
Do they get to live out their natural lifespan unmolested? Do they receive a substantial part of their mothers milk as nourishment? (That is how the Indian Bishnoi tribe justifies that they use milk while still trying to be truly compassionate with their animals).

Best regards,
Andy

These are all cogent and valid points. IMO, the argument for veganism/ethical behavior towards our fellow living beings is much more powerful when it is based on reality (and these are all inescapable problems, no matter how well cows used for milk production are treated) rather than hyperbole.
 
In those "compassionate" farms that you cite, what is the life expectancy of a dairy cow?
What happens to a dairy cow that no longer can give as much milk as the industry average?
Does she then get to live out her natural lifespan of 20 years? How much milk is taken from the cow?
The issue, and my point here, is that there are no general answers to these sorts of questions and one can't argue against dairy as a whole by citing the worst practices. The details are going to vary from farm to farm and there are many people that milk their goats and cows on a non-commercial basis.

On top of all that, ask any serious doctor how healthy it really is to consume cows milk as a grown-up human...
Doctors really aren't experts in nutrition in the first place, but the vast majority of doctors aren't going to claim that consuming cows milk is, in general, unhealthy. When you have to cite fringe doctors, rather than mainstream science, to support something I think its indicative of a problem.
 
Doctors really aren't experts in nutrition in the first place, but the vast majority of doctors aren't going to claim that consuming cows milk is, in general, unhealthy.

I would say that the first part of your sentence explains the second part.
 
The issue, and my point here, is that there are no general answers to these sorts of questions and one can't argue against dairy as a whole by citing the worst practices. The details are going to vary from farm to farm and there are many people that milk their goats and cows on a non-commercial basis.

Please tell me the name of A SINGLE COMMERCIAL DAIRY FARM where female cows and their male calves are allowed to live out their natural lifespans umolested.

(Then I will be willing to concede that this single farm is possibly "compassionate", but that 99.9 % of dairy produced today is NOT)

But I will most likely not change my message to "GO VEGAN, because 99.9 % of dairy nowadays consumed is produced under horrific conditions" as this is to long to fit on a placard and I am a rather lazy fellow in that respect.
 
I would say that the first part of your sentence explains the second part.
I'm not sure how because very few in the nutritional science community would claim that dairy is, in general, unhealthy. Though I imagine that your average doctor probably has an inaccurate view of the importance of dairy in one's diet.

In any case, at least as mainstream science is concerned, there is no health argument for avoiding dairy or animal foods in general.
 
In any case, at least as mainstream science is concerned, there is no health argument for avoiding dairy or animal foods in general.

There is also not a single valid health argument for INCLUDING dairy or animal foods, as far as I know.

But ... ask "mainstream science" HOW MUCH animal products should be included in a healthy diet. You will notice a significant difference to the amount that is normally consumed by the "average person".
 
Please tell me the name of A SINGLE COMMERCIAL DAIRY FARM where female cows and their male calves are allowed to live out their natural lifespans umolested.
I would doubt there is such a commercial dairy farm, but I was discussing dairy in general and not just commercial production. But even if the cows are put to death that doesn't mean the operation lacks compassion, after all, if a food product is concerned uncompassinate because animals die in its production than all food is such as the cultivation of plant crops results in animal deaths as well. So the death of animals, in itself, can't be the basis to avoid one while consuming the other.

But I will most likely not change my message to "GO VEGAN, because 99.9 % of dairy nowadays consumed is produced under horrific conditions" as this is to long to fit on a placard and I am a rather lazy fellow in that respect.
You keep saying this "99%", but what is the basis of it?
 
I would doubt there is such a commercial dairy farm, but I was discussing dairy in general and not just commercial production.

Ah, here's the disconnect then.

I am living in the real world, not in a general one.


But even if the cows are put to death that doesn't mean the operation lacks compassion..

Thank you for pointing this out. This also helps to understand that we are possibly arguing on the basis of different mindsets.

...after all, if a food product is concerned uncompassinate because animals die in its production than all food is such as the cultivation of plant crops results in animal deaths as well. So the death of animals, in itself, can't be the basis to avoid one while consuming the other.

Sure. Impeccable logic.

It is unavoidable in general to hurt animals, so let's just go ahead and hurt the ones where it could be very easily be avoided to harm them.
I had omnis use this exact argument to explain why they think it is right to eat steak. They did not convince me. Neither do you.

You keep saying this "99%", but what is the basis of it?

Well as you yourself concede that you think there is most likely not a single such "compassionate' company, what other number than 99 % would you suggest?

I have realized that the most likely reason why I am the only one here, in a "vegan forum", arguing what are the arguments for veganism against the typical omni arguments, is that I am new in this forum here and everybody else here has in the past already recognized the futility of such discussion.

I guess I will follow their example.
 
There is also not a single valid health argument for INCLUDING dairy or animal foods, as far as I know.
You are changing gears here, I never suggested that one needs to consume dairy to be healthy and instead was responding to the idea that one needs to avoid dairy to be healthy. But there are some animal based foods that are known to have health benefits, for example omega-3 rich fish.

And, yes, most recommend lower meat intakes than the average American consumes....but no serious nutritional scientist I'm aware of claims that you need to eat a 100% plant-based diet to be healthy.
 
Ah, here's the disconnect then.

I am living in the real world, not in a general one.
This is, actually, precisely the point. If you're going to make a general claim about dairy, which you seem to be doing, you need to consider the real world which is composed of particular cases.


It is unavoidable in general to hurt animals, so let's just go ahead and hurt the ones where it could be very easily be avoided to harm them.
I had omnis use this exact argument to explain why they think it is right to eat steak. They did not convince me. Neither do you.
You're ignoring a critical issue, namely, in the case of food when you avoid one food item you have to eat another. If food A and food B both result in the same amount of animal deaths in the aggregate, then arguing that food A is preferable to food B doesn't make much sense. So, as I suggested, you can't use the fact that cows die in dairy production to argue that one should instead eat plant alternates....you'd have to show that dairy results in less animal death and/or suffering. If the cattle are being fed grains/soy this is pretty easy to do since we can eat these crops directly and cattle would have to consume more calories in these crops than are produced in their milk. But its much less clear in the case of pastured cows (or goats), in that case they aren't eating cultivated crops and its not clear which results in more animal deaths.

Well as you yourself concede that you think there is most likely not a single such "compassionate' company, what other number than 99 % would you suggest?
That isn't what I conceded, in fact, I rather explicitly rejected the idea that just because cows may die prematurely that dairy is then uncompassinate.

While I really have no idea what the "typical omni argument is", this phrase just seems derisive, I have trouble seeing how people that routinely eat meat would argue things that lead to eating to little to no meat.
 
I'm curious as to whether there will be some final decision as to what the best argument will be and who gets to decide it. Will there be a vote?
 
That isn't what I conceded, in fact, I rather explicitly rejected the idea that just because cows may die prematurely that dairy is then uncompassinate.

I think a lot of veg*ns think that killing an animal unnecessarily is uncompassionate.

If a bunch of animals get killed during agricultural farming, that is simply unavoidable.

Do you really not see the difference between someone murdering someone painlessly, and someone accidental being run over by a car?

If some rich guy wants a new kidney, is it ok for him to have his hitmen kill someone to get one....I mean if the hitmen's target had a good life?
 
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I haven't ever read or heard anything that makes me think veganism is deeply flawed and that would convince me to go back to being a vegetarian again. The only argument that holds any sway for me would be health concerns as some people don't want to take supplements and vegans do tend to take them more than the average omni or veg person. The fact that there are a few inconsistencies within the vegan philosophy doesn't mean that I would reject veganism completely. Obviously if someone is just worried about health or even just their environmental impact there probably are better ways of eating than a vegan diet but I think vegetarianism is far more inconsistent ethically and omni people just mystify me sometimes when they seem to be against some forms of cruelty like wearing fur or fox hunting but are fine with eating animals.o_O
 
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maybe the best argument against veganism for the average Joe, is that he simply doesn't particularly care about animals.
Not everyone is wired the same.