Why I think eating meat can be moral

[Lou]

At the same time, it's kinda fun to think about morality. We're humans; we can't dismiss the morality discussion. For example, if a vegan comes across an injured animal that was going to die no matter what, would you end its suffering?

 

[PTree15]

Your friend doesn't buy food to throw away if it isn't sold, and does not buy food to just throw away if you don't eat it. If you eat that food, it would incentivise your friend to feed more to you or they would have to buy replacement meat because you ate it. This would be adding harm. The grocery store only buys meat because carnists buy it from them, and throws it away once it stops looking so salable. Pulling it out of the trash then does not incentivise them to order more cruelty. If people stop buying meat from the grocery store, they stop ordering animals to be killed. If you take their refuse out of the wheely bin, then it does not cause them to order more animals to be bred and killed. I think you may be stuck seeing this issue from a human invented morality system more than the real issue that vegans face which is unnecessary harm.

Regardless, as said before, I wouldn't eat it either way, just that the grocery store dumpster dive technically does not cause any further cruelty to occur. Veganism is in many ways a boycott, buying products that do not cause unneeded harm to try to steer the market and to not use our money to perpetuate a cruel system.

While the dumpster dive may not cause additional cruelty to occur, in my mind it still goes against the principle of vegans' not using/consuming animals, regardless of the source. It seems like a way to let people off the hook for continuing to eat meat. I also think it unnecessarily confuses people who might be considering going vegetarian or vegan.

 

[Poppy]

I work at a store that sells pre packaged sandwiches, subs, bakery goods and cooks hot dogs and taquitos (processed food wraps with sauce and meet in them). Inevitably food does not sell always and these products are destined for the trash. Much energy, resources, suffering, environmental degredation, and CO2 emissions went into the production of these foods and it was a waste. I would argue that these foods are zero carbon and zero animal suffering as eatting them adds no additional harm and there would be a moral imperative to eatting them. In fact eating anything but, vegan or not, can only be some measure of worse. Of course these foods are not the healthiest options and should be eaten in moderation. But from an ethical standpoint would you all agree it is a moral way to eat animal products?

Supporting excuses to eat meat exacerbates the problem. If eating meat that is going to be thrown away is ok, then it must be okay to eat the meat that isn't going to be thrown away - otherwise how would it ever get to the shelf in the first place? What we as veg*ns (and I realize you might not be one), have to do is reduce overall demand over time by not eating meat under any circumstances. Is it a perfect solution? No. But if we start eating meat that is going to be tossed, then we say that killing that animal was worth it.

 

[Mischief]

I used to enjoy philosophical discussions. But it seems like whenever I wade into one here on the forum I feel like I'm wading into a quagmire.

Morality does not exist in the animal kingdom. It's a human construct. Animal behavior is not right or wrong. Well, of course, there are exceptions. I think when my sister's dog chewed up my new headphones, that was BAD.

we can't project morality on animals. morals imply a shared dialog. You can't talk to lions or hyenas or dogs about their behavior. (Well, you can talk to dogs - not sure it makes a difference, tho).

Almost everybody uses morals and ethics interchangabilty. I get them mixed up all the time. the general idea is that ethics is something that is imposed. Maybe from a higher power but most often from our own community. Vegans are a society. And they have their own ethical standards. Morals, I think is something that is influenced by your culture, religion.

Another distinction is that ethics might allow for more subjectivity.

Frequently when I head into a philosophical quagmire I bring along the vegan guidelines. I didn't invent them. A bunch of other guys did. but when I decided to be vegan I implicitly agreed to vegan ethics.

The Society now defines veganism as "A philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of humans, animals and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals.​

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Although that seems pretty clear to me the thing is that "as far as possible and practicalbe" is subjective. So we have our guidelines but we don't have any hard and fast rules.

That is actually one of my favorite things about veganism. It allows for personal subjective decision making. So each vegan gets to decide for themselves.

Probably my least favorite thing is that it allows for people to get into long and involved philosophical debates. Sometimes relying on dessert islands, guns to your head, and trolleys. Not to mention dumpsters.

For me, Dr. Melanie Joy, (who is a psychologist, not a philosopher) put the pin in this when she wrote, "Be as vegan as possible".

Extremely sensible post.

 

[Mischief]

In response to the original question:

i don't have a problem with people eating flesh that they find in dumpsters if that reduces their consumption of "new" products, because production of anything "new" creates suffering or hardship somewhere along the line.

That being said, I personally won't do it, just like I won't buy a pair of leather shoes at Goodwill, because I can't bear the thought of walking around in the skin of someone who was killed for their skin (or their flesh). I simply can't do it.

And yes, I realize I eat more than I need to, and I consume more than I need to, and that causes suffering to others.